67% of the Irish people call for restrictions on eastern european migration.

aphrodisiac:

be aware that there maybe some Poles who will not be willing to go back, because by their standards, life is Poland has less to offer to them at this point.

aphrodisiac:

I agree with that statement a 100%. However, it is not a situation when one says: You should have known better, but rather: Ireland has not taken time to foresee "the worst case scenario", unlike other EU countries, such as Germany.

aphrodisiac:

That is a good thing and I am hoping that some Poles will be sensible enough not to head that way during such hard economic times in Ireland.

aphrodisiac:

That smells of nationalism, but I am not surprised.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Jun 28, 09, 12:56 / #
Nearly 7 out of ten voters want tighter controls on immigration from the new EU member states because of the recession. It is now time for the govt to listen - not lecture - on this issue. Under the terms of the Accession Treaties, member states may apply to the EU Commission for the temporary reintroduction of labour-market restrictions because of a disturbance to the labour market. That clearly underway, it is time for the elites to heed public-opinion, as reflected by every major opinion poll on this question since Pat Rabbitte first suggested it in the wake of the Irish Ferries dispute. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/seven-out-of-10-favour-immigra tion-restrictions-1794640.html

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 13:06 / #
Yeah, and Obama has said that he wants to cut right back on nukes. Do you really believe that will happen? Sorry, I don't see the Taioseach taking much of a stand on this issue. What is your expectation, RN? What practical measures will be put in place?

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Edited by: RevokeNice Jun 28, 09, 13:14 / #
Seanus A work permit system ala Germany and Austria. The people have spoken. They cannot be ignored for much longer, the anger is simmering. This will restore some of the Taoiseachs popularity. It would be a good move.

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 13:17 / #
so all it takes is to implement it if that it the wish of majority. I heard that Ireland is not doing so well anymore and guest workers are the first ones to go. Makes sense really. What about those who are permanently living in Ireland???

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Jun 28, 09, 13:21 / #
aphrodisiac Did you read the article? It implies that the eastern euros are staying, not going home. Those with active PPS numbers can stay as they are now part of our society, any future eastern european immigrant should need a work permit to gain employment in Ireland. 40,000 PPS numbers where issued to foreigners in the first five months of the year. 20,000 from eastern europe. They are still coming and if the article is to be believed, not many are going home.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 13:25 / #
RN, you are no doubt aware of the situation at play here. Namely, that Poles often get more money from benefits than they do in a standard job here in Poland. Why would you return to an uncertain future when you can meet the criteria for benefits after layoffs? Also, there needs to be a meeting of employers to discuss the future strategy. Use the press more, you have options. This is not their fault, it is the fault of the organs of state not working.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Jun 28, 09, 13:31 / #
Seanus Ireland is not a charity, welfare needs to be cut across the board. Those who find themselves unemployed, though no fault of their own, should be encouraged to return to their native land. A months welfare and a ticket home would suffice. Ireland offered them an opportunity to work, not to draw benefits(204 euro a week). Mass unemployment is like kryptonite to mass immigration, those who oppose it no longer stay silent. The good times are over, its time to look after our own.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 28, 09, 13:34 / #
RevokeNice: The people have spoken. lol...

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jun 28, 09, 13:35 / #
RevokeNice: Did you read the article? I just did:). RevokeNice: eastern euros It is eastern europeans as far as I know. You are on a Polish Forum, so some respect would be a proper thing to show on your part. I don't see a problem. If Ireland wants to implement restriction on guest workers then she should do it. Otherwise Polish Forums will be swamped with number of posts from people like you, who in my opinion are wasting their time here, instead of addressing the Irish Government. Use you frustration in a constructive way please. I am blunt but that it the reality:)))))). I wish Ireland all the best. Will visit some day:)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 13:38 / #
Who made the decision to give 204 Euro a week, a Pole or an Irishman? You can encourage them all you want, they won't go. With all due respect, you don't know the reality here. Did Ireland not benefit from their hard graft? The Irish got greedy off of a bubble and are now paying the price. Listen to The Money Masters, a Google video. This is not Monopoly, this is real.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 14:21 / #
That's right, the Celtic Tiger started to wane at the turn of the century. The immigrants are being used as an excuse by many who screwed up of their own accord. Europeanisation has been underway for some time now. I remember being asked, 10 years ago, if I was Scottish, British or European. Some people would want me to say that I'm a world citizen under one government. RN, if he has the freedom to go to Ireland, as a European, why can't he describe it in the way that he did?

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 14:32 / #
Seanus: The immigrants are being used as an excuse by many who screwed up of their own accord. agree, it is such a predictable argument when economy goes down. Seanus: if he has the freedom to go to Ireland, as a European, why can't he describe it in the way that he did? If this is how he feels, there is no way to change it. I am happy that Poles have the opportunity to enjoy that freedom. No amount of correcting by the Irish bloke in a bar over a drink is going to change that:)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 14:57 / #
Property buyers in Poland had it good for quite a time, aph. Even now, you can get bargains in property. I think the media has twisted the effect of the crisis. It's one great excuse to layoff and restructure. Many Poles agree with me. Competition is not a 21-st century phenomenon, aph. Where were the experts with their crystal balls to help people prepare? The Irish have been in the EU since 1973 (I think) so they know the rules. This was one of the initial scenarios and discussion points early days.

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 15:16 / #
Seanus: Property buyers in Poland had it good for quite a time, aph. Even now, you can get bargains in property. who are you referring to in particular and how is that connected with the topic? Seanus: I think the media has twisted the effect of the crisis. How so? I am asking because I came to the same conclusion a while ago:). Seanus: Competition is not a 21-st century phenomenon, aph I know that so perhaps you should address the OP, not me;). Seanus: Where were the experts with their crystal balls to help people prepare? there are tons of them around, but some countries have learnt their lessons a long time ago. Many studies are being done as we speak. As for whether those studies are of any value, I have no clue:). Seanus: The Irish have been in the EU since 1973 (I think) so they know the rules. I agree, but rules can and should be changed when they are not serving both parties. Seanus: This was one of the initial scenarios and discussion points early days. What was? Guest workers or immigration? Isn't Irish population declining ?

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Edited by: RevokeNice Jun 28, 09, 13:38 / #
aphrodisiac I am here to gain an insight into Polish opinion on mass immigration into my land. Do not fear, Aphrodisiac, the Irish government are getting lobbied on this issue. Ireland for the Irish is the cry echoing in their ears. Seanus The Irish people did not benefit from mass immigration, slum landlords and big business did. The Irish people never supported it and are now paying the social cost. Every job a Pole has an Irish person loses out. Every cent euro spent teaching a Polish child English is a euro less for teaching Irish children. Every euro spent on a Poles welfare is a euro that could be spent on Irish people. Anybody under 30,000 euro per annum pays no PAYE tax, 38% of the population, nearly all immigrants would be included in this figure. Therefore they take more out of the system than they contribute.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Jun 28, 09, 13:43 / #
So, how are you going to justify expulsion or containment when it cuts against the grain of the EU Treaty? Ireland looks set to agree to some Protocols which will be annexed to the treaty. Did a Pole make those rules?

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Jun 28, 09, 13:45 / #
Seanus Read the article, mon amie. Under the terms of the Accession Treaties, member states may apply to the EU Commission for the temporary reintroduction of labour-market restrictions because of a disturbance to the labour market. We apply to Brussels for a temporary halt to immigration from eastern europe, due to our present difficulties. They agree. We issue a work permit system. C'est formidable!

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jun 28, 09, 13:48 / #
RevokeNice: I am here to gain an insight into Polish opinion on mass immigration into my land. well, I understand that. Also, your thread would be helpful to people from Poland who are thinking of heading that way, so no pun intended on my part. I am a big fan of immigration, however it needs to be done in a way that both parties benefits, therefore, Ireland needs to do what is best in the present situation. be aware that there maybe some Poles who will not be willing to go back, because by their standards, life is Poland has less to offer to them at this point. Seanus: Did Ireland not benefit from their hard graft? The Irish got greedy off of a bubble and are now paying the price. I agree with that statement a 100%. However, it is not a situation when one says: You should have known better, but rather: Ireland has not taken time to foresee "the worst case scenario", unlike other EU countries, such as Germany. RevokeNice: Do not fear, Aphrodisiac, the Irish government are getting lobbied on this issue. I do not fear anything;). RevokeNice: the Irish government are getting lobbied on this issue. That is a good thing and I am hoping that some Poles will be sensible enough not to head that way during such hard economic times in Ireland. RevokeNice: Ireland for the Irish is the cry echoing in their ears. That smells of nationalism, but I am not surprised. There is no need for that in my opinion. Simple: we cannot handle more guest workers would should have sufficed in my humble opinion.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Jun 28, 09, 13:51 / #
I can see your point, RN, but look at the course of history. There clearly wasn't sufficient commitment to averting this predicament that many find themselves in. It's the same as the Fed in America, you give people an inch and they take a mile. We shall see if the Irish voice is recognised. This also applies to Britain as the BNP got a seat too. Everyone wants a secure future but the rights of the nationals should take precedence. Still, the Poles are just doing what they are entitled to do.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Edited by: RevokeNice Jun 28, 09, 13:56 / #
aphrodisiac: be aware that there maybe some Poles who will not be willing to go back, because by their standards, life is Poland has less to offer to them at this point. Ireland cannot afford to support those who are unemployed and do not wish to go home. We are an nation and not a charity. We offered them a chance to work, not a lifetime on benefits. aphrodisiac: I agree with that statement a 100%. However, it is not a situation when one says: You should have known better, but rather: Ireland has not taken time to foresee "the worst case scenario", unlike other EU countries, such as Germany. The Irish people did not benefit from or support, mass immigration, they are paying the social costs, mind. Immigration has lowered the living standard of the average Irish citizen. Wages being driven down by cheap labour. Rents being pushed up. Job displacement. You get the picture. aphrodisiac: That is a good thing and I am hoping that some Poles will be sensible enough not to head that way during such hard economic times in Ireland. One lives in hope. aphrodisiac: That smells of nationalism, but I am not surprised. And prey tell, what is wrong with nationalism? I had a Pole tell me the other night in the the pub, that he was not an immigrant but just moving around his nation, Europe!! He was corrected sharpish.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 14:01 / #
It's all about relative benefits, RN. So the Irish standard of living is going down, international forces play their part in that too. Ever heard of the expression, 'when the going gets tough, the tough gets going'?

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Jun 28, 09, 14:02 / #
Seanus Yes, but I prefer the phrase "charity begins at home". ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 14:06 / #
They get that charity too, RN ;) ;)

peter_olsztynThreads: 8 Posts: 760 Joined: Apr 18, 07	Jun 28, 09, 14:09 / #
Nearly 9 out of ten daddies want tighter controls on marriages between expats from the old EU member states and Polish girls because of the possible tensions in the future. Daddies are worrying about future of their princesses and grandchildren. It is now time for the govt to listen - not lecture - on this issue. Language our shield. In language we trust ;P

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09	Jun 28, 09, 14:10 / #
Right, my Polish friends, I am off out to enjoy the sun and have some lunch. I will be back later on, if you are lucky. All views and opinions welcomed. You never know, you might change my mind. :) Do widzenia!

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 14:14 / #
RevokeNice: Ireland cannot afford to support those who are unemployed and do not wish to go home. We are an nation and not a charity. We offered them a chance to work, not a lifetime on benefits. Oh, I understand that very well. How do you think Ireland is going to approach that problem ? RevokeNice: The Irish people did not benefit from or support, mass immigration, they are paying the social costs, mind. It is obvious that Ireland did not expect mass immigration from Eastern European countries. RevokeNice: Immigration has lowered the living standard of the average Irish citizen. I think that it is more complex than that. Mass immigration could be one of the factors, but not the ONLY factor. The Celtic Tiger has been dead for a while and that happened BEFORE Poles reached the Irish shores. RevokeNice: Wgaes being driven down by cheap labour. I guess that happens where cheap labour starts to compete with the locals. It happens all over the world. RevokeNice: Rents being pushed up. If Ireland has no regulated rent market, then there is no surprise here. Happens all over the world - it is not an Irish phenomena. RevokeNice: And prey tell, what is wrong with nationalism? In my humble opinion, there is everything wrong with it, especially when it is used as a political tool to get rid of the guest workers. You might need them later on, but it is not going to push them away, if they need to make a buck. RevokeNice: I had a Pole tell me the other night in the the pub, that he was not an immigrant but just moving around his nation, Europe!! He was corrected sharpish. That is an opinion of one person and he was allowed to voice it. Poles have immigrated to improve their standard of living as much as Irish did for centuries. There are more Irish people living in the US alone then in your small Island. Are you planning to be insular in this situation? I am not PC, I am just trying to look at the bigger picture here.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 14:36 / #
It's funny how he hasn't mentioned the ramifications that ensued from the world financial crisis. Life is about competition, amongst other things. If the Irish are good enough, they'll get the jobs at the expense of those from central and eastern Europe.

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 14:49 / #
Seanus: It's funny how he hasn't mentioned the ramifications that ensued from the world financial crisis. true and Poland is struggling with the same crisis as well, so in my opinion those Poles who are already in Ireland will have to make some hard choices. Seanus: Life is about competition, amongst other things. true, but if Irish never had to compete before, then I can see why they feel that Eastern European guest workers are seen as a threat to them.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 28, 09, 15:24 / #
It has a direct bearing on the return of Poles. If property prices are low, this will encourage people to move back. The people behind the media wants people to feel fear and change their ways. It gives governments a greater role to regulate things and realign their strategies. Rules should be changed to suit the prevailing climate, yes, but the core principles are like pillars. They are not to be negotiated. Aph, what concerns do you imagine signatory governments had to the signing of the EU Treaty? Why were many so sceptical? What brought about Europhobism?

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jun 28, 09, 15:38 / #
Seanus: It has a direct bearing on the return of Poles. If property prices are low, this will encourage people to move back. Yes, but you are speaking in general terms, can you make references to Ireland? that would be one of the factors, another is employment, quality of living, family ties and many other factors, which we can discuss possibly in another thread. Seanus: The people behind the media wants people to feel fear and change their ways. I don't know what you are referring to. You need to be more specific. Seanus: It gives governments a greater role to regulate things and realign their strategies. same as above:) Seanus: Rules should be changed to suit the prevailing climate, yes, but the core principles are like pillars. They are not to be negotiated. Seanus: Aph, what concerns do you imagine signatory governments had to the signing of the EU Treaty? Why were many so sceptical? What brought about Europhobism? another topic all together :) Got to go, be back later for more:)