USA $700B Bailout - The biggest robbery in the history of the world

southern:

In Germany the CEO of Mercedes makes only 100000 euro per year and Mercedes gives profits.I don't understand why an executive should get more than a reasonable amount to be motivated.
In fact why in US the managers determine their salaries.They get bonuses and stocks as well because they decide so.This is unthikable in Europe.
I think the shareholders put too much trust in them.At least if the executives want to determine their salaries without limits,they should be responsible for the consequences of mismanagement without limits.

dcchris:

ok so we all agree seemingly. so why dont voters actually do something about it?

dcchris:

well first america needs to get real democracy where the govt actually represents the people and not just business interests

Franek:

OH,Oh, Here we go again Miranda. I know that you admire Obama. As for me, I cant stand him.. he is a crook.

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Oct 7, 08, 01:48 / #
The $700 billion bailout package. WASHINGTON - The now-bankrupt investment bank Lehman Brothers arranged millions in bonuses for fired executives as it pleaded for a federal lifeline, lawmakers learned Monday, as Congress began investigating what went so wrong on Wall Street to prompt a $700 billion government bailout. Yahoo news You have to ask why were they rushing congress so much?

szarlotkaThreads: 14 Posts: 3,349 Joined: Feb 20, 07	Oct 7, 08, 03:05 / #
Bless the bankers. It's not working for them. The stock markets have gone down still further when they were hoping news of the package would have prompted a short term recovery that they could have reversed by cutting the losses on their own holdings by selling them and thus prompting a real crash.

randompalThreads: 7 Posts: 431 Joined: Jul 10, 07	Oct 7, 08, 04:56 / #
"The biggest robbery in the history of the world..." That's the wrong way of looking at it. A better way would be "The History of the World is Robbery."

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07	Oct 7, 08, 06:59 / #
The CEOs should be responsible with their personal property for company's failure.I mean if company fails,CEO and executives should pay for debts caused by mismanagement,let alone the shareholders have the opportunity to sue them for compensation. Why doctors should pay if they give wrong treatment and CEOs never be responsible for their actions?

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07	Oct 7, 08, 07:04 / #
southern: The CEOs should be responsible with their personal property for company's failure.I mean if company fails,CEO and executives should pay for debts caused by mismanagement,let alone the shareholders have the opportunity to sue them for compensation. Why doctors should pay if they give wrong treatment and CEOs never be responsible for their actions? I totally agree with you on this Southern I still think you're a slimy sleezebag, but when you talk sense you do talk sense. It really pees me off that the people who created this mess are going to walk off with their 7 figure bonuses and others who can ill afford it will suffer.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07	Oct 7, 08, 07:14 / #
Daisy: that the people who created this mess are going to walk off with their 7 figure bonuses and others who can ill afford it will suffer. Yes,if you take the risk you have to accept the consequences.I mean they got heavy bonuses when the profits arose but they did not lose anything when the company bankrupted.For them it is a win-win situation.They cannot talk about motivation even if failure of company means profits for them. I am sure that if the properties of the CEO and other executives of Lehman's had been sold,there would be enough liquidity and the company would have been saved. In my opinion the tax payers pay now 700 billion $ to executives for free.

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07	Oct 7, 08, 07:19 / #
southern: For them it is a win-win situation.They cannot talk about motivation even if failure of company means profits for them. And that's the whole route of the problem. southern: I am sure that if the properties of the CEO and other executives of Lehman's had been sold,there would be enough liquidity and the company would have been saved. Exactly! when a small business starts to struggle they go under and lose everything and a lot of small businesses are going under because of these greedy bastards...it really makes me angry, the way they are holding us all to ransom

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Oct 7, 08, 07:27 / #
In Germany the CEO of Mercedes makes only 100000 euro per year and Mercedes gives profits.I don't understand why an executive should get more than a reasonable amount to be motivated. In fact why in US the managers determine their salaries.They get bonuses and stocks as well because they decide so.This is unthikable in Europe. I think the shareholders put too much trust in them.At least if the executives want to determine their salaries without limits,they should be responsible for the consequences of mismanagement without limits.

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07	Oct 7, 08, 07:44 / #
southern: At least if the executives want to determine their salaries without limits,they should be responsible for the consequences of mismanagement without limits. That would see their salaries come down. When I worked as a voluntary counsellor for a charity, I still had to pay for my own private indemnity insurance. These people don't need to pay insurance the taxes of those less well off than them will bale them out. I get angry just thinking about it.

FranekThreads: 21 Posts: 525 Joined: Apr 12, 08	Oct 7, 08, 07:51 / #
Below are names of Politicians who took money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Name Office Party/State Total 1. Dodd, Christopher J S D-CT $133,900 2. Kerry, John S D-MA $111,000 3. Obama, Barack S D-IL $105,849 4. Clinton, Hillary S D-NY $75,550 5. Kanjorski, Paul E H D-PA $65,500 6. Bennett, Robert F S R-UT $61,499 7. Johnson, Tim S D-SD $61,000 8. Conrad, Kent S D-ND $58,991 9. Davis, Tom H R-VA $55,499 10. Bond, Christopher S ‘Kit’ S R-MO $55,400 Franklin Raines 90 Million Timothy Howard 30 Million Barney Frank Mass. Claimed that the Institutions were in sound shape. Blocked all efforts to fix it Angelo Mozilo, stole Millions So now lets see if anybody goes to jail

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Edited by: dcchris Oct 7, 08, 09:03 / #
ron paul? Fed to buy massive amounts of short-term debt biz.yahoo.com/ap/081007/financial_meltdown.html?.&.pf=banking-budgetin g these guys should just spend the money in las vegas they would have better odds of success. can they really be so stupid? Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has tapped a former Goldman Sachs executive to be director of the government's bailout program. This is almost like a comedy. Letting the criminals run the bailout program. How much worse can it get?

FranekThreads: 21 Posts: 525 Joined: Apr 12, 08	Oct 7, 08, 09:20 / #
dcchris: ron paul? NAW! That is not the answer. We Americans are stupid.. We are like sheep led to slaughter. We are split in our choice for a President.. But then again.. How does one choose between two candidates that both are unfit. Why are people not going to jail? These were criminal offenses. The Bastards protect each other out of fear that they might be implicated.. SO now what? Where do we go from here. As for myself, I would want to see all of that money paid back, and their property confiscated. Then sent to a chain gang. ANY OTHER IDEAS?

FranekThreads: 21 Posts: 525 Joined: Apr 12, 08	Oct 7, 08, 09:33 / #
dcchris: i have ideas but none that are feasible or likely to happen SEE,, Thats just what I mean.. This is not only Americas problem. Because of bad politics, the whole world has to suffer.. All that we Americans will do is bit*h about it.. But no one has an answer..

datThreads: 2 Posts: 84 Joined: Oct 5, 08	Oct 7, 08, 09:48 / #
Daisy: 7 figure bonuses it's more like 9 figure. $480 mil take in for lehman ceo. it's so ridiculous. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2008/10/07/todd.lehman.capit ol.hill.cnn?iref=24hours

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07	Oct 7, 08, 08:02 / #
Franek: So now lets see if anybody goes to jail Not one of them and they won't see their house repossessed or lose their livelihoods either :(

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Oct 7, 08, 08:12 / #
I don't think the CEOs use their compensations to bribe politicians or give money to parties.I think they take this money for themselves.The question is why the company pays them so much money.What they really add to the value of company and the stocks price.And if they add,how is their compensation connected to the value they add.Because it seems that even when the stocks prices get down,they still make profits. So compensation is not according to performance unlike any other employee. There are examples of CEOs who got huge compensations to leave when the company almost collapsed by their management.Why should sb get massive compensation to leave if he does not get the job right?

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Oct 7, 08, 08:53 / #
ok so we all agree seemingly. so why dont voters actually do something about it?

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07	Oct 7, 08, 09:02 / #
dcchris: ok so we all agree seemingly. so why dont voters actually do something about it? What choice do voters have? When you look at Franek's list, the only options available to the voters are all hand in glove with the CEOs of these companies.

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Oct 7, 08, 09:25 / #
i have ideas but none that are feasible or likely to happen

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Edited by: dcchris Oct 7, 08, 09:36 / #
well first america needs to get real democracy where the govt actually represents the people and not just business interests

miranda	Edited by: miranda Oct 7, 08, 09:38 / #
dcchris: govt actually represents the people and not just business interests i know it sounds naive at this point of the game but the more people vote in the election the better. Can you vote in Poland Chris? We are having an election in Canada and some of the people I spoke to and who were born here don't even know who to vote for which means that they will not vote at all. I, on the other hand, an immigrant, will always vote.

FranekThreads: 21 Posts: 525 Joined: Apr 12, 08	Oct 7, 08, 09:51 / #
miranda: know it sounds naive at this point of the game but the more people vote in the election the better. Can you vote in Poland Chris? OH,Oh, Here we go again Miranda. I know that you admire Obama. As for me, I cant stand him.. he is a crook. McCain?? Actually he has nothing to offer. So again you and I are TOUCHE. Which is the lesser of both evils?? That's like asking how you want to be executed.. By a firing squad,, the Gallows, Guillotine Electric chair ?? No matter what.. In the end you are dead.

miranda	Edited by: miranda Oct 7, 08, 09:58 / #
Franek: OH,Oh, Here we go again Miranda. I know that you admire Obama. As for me, I cant stand him.. he is a crook. here we go again? How am I responsible for the fact that American voters have those 2 choices? I personally like Obama, but so do many other people who cannot vote in the US elections. I though that you were voting independent anyways. You just invested in another house Frank, so I am sure you will be OK. Some people will make money on the financial crisis, some will lose money and homes.

FranekThreads: 21 Posts: 525 Joined: Apr 12, 08	Oct 7, 08, 10:13 / #
Miranda, I do not hold you responsible for our choices..I would like to feel that we can discuss this problem reasonably. This might surprise you, but I really do respect you.. You are an intelligent woman from what I see on the Forum.. But we disagree for whatever our reasons are. Yes I am an independent voter. I vote my conscience.. But sometime even that is tough. Yes, this fallout will not affect me in any way. I own no stocks. I am invested in treasuries and real estate.. I have no financial problems. But I do feel bad for the young people trying to raise a family and own a home.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Oct 7, 08, 10:23 / #
miranda: i know it sounds naive at this point of the game but the more people vote in the election the better. Yes, it is naive and this is exactly what the crooks aka politicians want - to get credibility and mandate. The elections are pretty much summed up by this slogan: pick the one you want to fvck you this time over all other who would also fvck you if elected. As for the financial crisis and the grand theft, it all started in 1913 with the creation of The Federal Reserve. The current issue are just a part of the longstanding process of enslaving billions of people in the name of a few corporations and top crooks. Banking has nothing to do with stabilizing the markets. It has everything to do with mer4ciless abuse of the society. No morals, no ethics. Politicians are but big industry's puppets carrying some banners meant to appeal to our goodwill, instincts and fears .

loco polacoThreads: 3 Posts: 421 Joined: Aug 5, 08	Oct 7, 08, 11:46 / #
southern: In Germany the CEO of Mercedes makes only 100000 euro per year and Mercedes gives profits.I don't understand why an executive should get more than a reasonable amount to be motivated. In fact why in US the managers determine their salaries.They get bonuses and stocks as well because they decide so.This is unthikable in Europe. I think the shareholders put too much trust in them.At least if the executives want to determine their salaries without limits,they should be responsible for the consequences of mismanagement without limits. because USA is not a commie country but i agree with the last part. having said that, i must also say that america is heading the commie way with this bail out. but the robbery started with the iraq war and now is finishing up. the greatest robber baron is shrubco. now, you seem to love to dump on the USA but seem to be all hush hush about the same sh.t going on EU.. all the different countries including UK now are doing the same damn thing that USA is doing, sans any kind of vote. hmmm... that's just as un cool. dcchris: ok so we all agree seemingly. so why dont voters actually do something about it? hell of a good question. dcchris: well first america needs to get real democracy where the govt actually represents the people and not just business interests america is actually a republic. nothing to do with democracy. Franek: OH,Oh, Here we go again Miranda. I know that you admire Obama. As for me, I cant stand him.. he is a crook. i see this kind of thing all the time as of late but once again w/o any proof. so step up and show us how you based this otherwise it's just another fart. mac is an unacceptable shoice as of now so we have to go with obama. z_darius: z_darius alright, i'll go with that.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07	Oct 7, 08, 12:30 / #
loco polaco: because USA is not a commie country but i agree with the last part. having said that, i must also say that america is heading the commie way with this bail out. but the robbery started with the iraq war and now is finishing up. the greatest robber baron is shrubco. now, you seem to love to dump on the USA but seem to be all hush hush about the same sh.t going on EU.. all the different countries including UK now are doing the same damn thing that USA is doing, sans any kind of vote. hmmm... that's just as un cool. Yes of course,it is simple.It always gets down to the weaker.The CEOs are secure they will not pay,the middle class will pay a burden,the lower class much more,then come european citizens who have to pay in order that some third world countries will go bankrupt as result of the crisis,so their citizens will feel the consequences,dozens times more than american and less than european citizens. So everybody is happy if he looks at the disaster the one lower than him will face.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Oct 7, 08, 12:40 / #
southern: disaster the one lower than him will face. And the lowest look down only at the ground...

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Edited by: dcchris Oct 7, 08, 12:42 / #
you have got to give it to them. no one can come up with a feasible solution... sad but true. the greatest form of empowerment for the government and big business is when the people are powerless and have given up hope Can you vote in Poland Chris? yes I can

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Oct 7, 08, 12:48 / #
Franek: SO now what? Where do we go from here. In addition to the investigations being conducted by various government agencies I think that IRS should be given a bigger role to play in this circus. Since IRS is the only federal agency that can investigate potential criminal violations of the Internal Revenue Code we would have to start here. Any institution filling for the federal assistance under recently passed bailout program would automatically be subject to Criminal Investigation by IRS for the period of let’s say past 20 years with a mandate to take it as far as it’s possible. This would be applied to the institution itself as well as any individual holding management positions past and present all the way down to the middle management positions of those institutions and anyone involved in a corruption if such have accrued and can be proven including any politician who might have been involved. The deals could be made in exchange for any person to testify against any of the top brass wrongdoing with the exception of top level positions. Since general consensus of average Joe is that the same people who are responsible for the problem in the first place are holding the checkbook and running bailout program they should be offered an incentive, if their efforts are successful this would be a mitigating factor in reducing their sentence if they themselves would be convicted of any wrongdoing. Of course we do not have complete confidence in their abilities nor in their motivation to do the job, therefore any decision undertaken by them, could only be implemented with a concession of their advisory board comprised of the people recruited from academia for each institution taking part in the program, that were not a part of any private sector or held consulting positions. It’s not a perfect solution but it would do a pretty good job at flushing the system out. Now the question of financing such undertaking. In IRS we already have a large enough ready work force on the federal payroll, any extra costs like over time, travel expenses etc. would be offset by the institutions themselves who would be required by law to pay a premium of 2% on top of their tax implemented immediately after filling for federal assistance under the bailout program. Since average Joe is not responsible for the crises and already lost his money and will lose even more by the time stock market and real estate market stabilizes through his investments in 401K and others, no other burden should be placed on him. By the time this crises is over he will lose an X% in the value of his property and X% in the value of his retirement account and is already financing this program through the tax he’s paying, therefore the question of paying back the money for the bailout program should be solely focused on the institutions that survives this crises, and benefited from this program. Another X% tax premium should be place on them for an x number of years until it’s paid off. To fix the problem and plugging up most of the loopholes in the system so it can operate more smoothly in the future, again I see a great role for the academia to play in this arena. Any lessons learned from the IRS investigation and other investigations run by other government agencies should be carefully analyzed by them in exchange for the federal Grants and other federal incentives provided to them by participating in this program. After analysis is completed a proposal should be drawn up and submitted to the U.S. congress to be put into practice by implementing a new laws that would govern the financial institutions and provide oversight. Hopefully by this time corruption cases would have been proven and dealt with. As for the punishment, anyone proven guilty of criminal wrongdoing or corruption should not only be given a prison term but his property should be confiscated by the IRS as ill gained assets and put into a fund to offset the bailout program. Of course this is just a rough outline and a “Nice Dream”, but dreams are free. If this dream would ever come to pass it would prove to all that the IRS is not just working for the “Man” but for little Joe as well. Why not unleash the IRS after all its part of the government and government should work for us.