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Karate for grownups (Lublin)


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ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Jan 29, 09, 16:10 /  #
Hi,
I posted this in the life section but have gotten no response. Realized it fits way better here so...
I'm moving to PL, Lublin and was wondering if there is a good dojo in the area.. specially one that has an established adult group and separate training time (I'm 22). I'm one of those people that can't quite do the 'run on a treadmill' gym thing, and martial arts has been the best grounding activity for me stateside. I know it probably won't be quite the experience I'm used to (we train under 4th and 3th dan, quite strict and huge on tradition), but I'm hoping there is some center that concentrates on the art and has a good sensei. The style I practice is Shindo Jinen Ryu, in case anyone is familiar with it and knows a place that practices a similar style.
Also, what are the membership rates if anyone has gone to a dojo (in Lublin or PL)?
Thanks

noimmigration   Jan 29, 09, 16:11 /  #
Go to Muay Thai or Boxing. Karate is bollocks
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Jan 29, 09, 17:20 /  #
Only if you're taught in a bad dojo. The boom a few decades back created a lot of places that barely knew what they were doing and taught just to get some quick $. That's also why I'm asking here, to not have to go to each and check them out (hopefully). The real art is legit. Personally I think boxing far sillier than karate, but that's an oppinion that I won't attempt to instill on others ^_^
As mentioned, I'm drawn to the traditions in Karate, which are missing from stuff like boxing. Also, my style incorporated some muay thai, we mostly used it in the self defense and kihon (basics/fundamentals practice), and I find their moves way too violent to want to use while sparring (which practicing true muay thai would require).
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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Edited by: MrBubbles   Jan 30, 09, 09:07 /  #
noimmigration:
Go to Muay Thai or Boxing. Karate is bollocks

Some Karate is bollocks. Boxing is useful if you want to fight a guy your weight in a ring without any weapons. Muay Thai would be a useful thing to learn for self defence if you're a big guy, and you have an instructor who understands it as a Martial Art, not a sport (Thai Boxing).

If you want self defence, Krav Maga is hard to beat, despite all the paramilitary 'Israel is so cool' toss. The 'art' is very practical, the didactics are very good (amoung the best I've seen in MA classes) and a huge part of the lesson is based on building the mental / emotional toughness essential for defending oneself. NO other MA I know places such high priority on it

For Karate in Lublin, would Shotokan be OK? I trained with a PZKT club in Lodz and although they were a bit dull, they're reputable and have some valid high grades.

http://www.karate.lublin.pl/

I cant see Shindo Jinen Ryu coming up on Google searches. I'd suggest trying another style for a little while to keep your hand in but look for something better.
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Jan 30, 09, 23:07 /  #
Here's the wiki info on the style http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shind%C5%8D_jinen-ry%C5%AB
It's easier to find info about it by its organization name vs the style though, so if you're still curious try googling ryobu kai or JKR instead.
shotokan isn't too far off... some kata differences and some stance variations (they have a wider zenkutsudachi for instance, if that tells you anything). The respective founders were actually friends. The main difference is that shotokan has become known as the sport version of karate, whereas mine remains closer to the roots (pre-sport) and incorporates techniques normally associated with other styles (jujitsu, aikido, etc).

Do you know if that place has an adult class? I'm finding the page a bit hard to sift through (haven't read long polish in some time -__-; )
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07
  Jan 31, 09, 03:53 /  #
Elssha:
Do you know if that place has an adult class? I'm finding the page a bit hard to sift through (haven't read long polish in some time -__-; )

Hmm let me see - apparently they have ferie training on at the moment - ostensibly 'for all' but it looks more for kids 1100-1200 and teens 1200-1300

karate.lublin.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id= 306&Itemid=48

Otherwise there is a big 'harmonogram' to download with all the normal lesson times and levels
karate.lublin.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id= 269&Itemid=41

Elssha:
shotokan has become known as the sport version of karate

Ooooooo - don't say that to them ;) Thanks for the wiki link
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Jan 31, 09, 04:48 /  #
ugh... i'd rather not be stuck with teens...
know any clubs that might have dedicated adult classes? I don't mind veering away from my style if necessary...
looks like I'm gonna miss my college karate club -__-;
our dojo (from where our sensei come to teach at the uni, and where we go on fri) won medals in Italy this year. Sensei = soo proud ^_^
I found one youtube vid of one of our sensei and two sempai doing a demo... not the best representation but only one that wasn't kenjitsu-related on the net -__-;
youtube.com/watch?v=pcMSN2c7B08 (oh, and yes... the floor gives and those two are used to being tossed around by sensei chad... freaked me out the first time i came down to the dojo and heard the bang... though Lin's head had been cracked open from all the noise)
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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Joined: Nov 13, 07
  Jan 31, 09, 13:36 /  #
Elssha:
ugh... i'd rather not be stuck with teens...
know any clubs that might have dedicated adult classes?

Well, I have some bad news for you there. 99% of the karate in Poland is aimed at kids and teens. You do admittedly get a healthy number of uni students in clubs around universities - usually as part of their degree's PE component - but most classes are at least half kids and teens. This is the main reaon I'm debating going back to my club next semester. My instructor is constantly followed around the room by a gaggle of wide-eyed 13 year old girls.

Maybe it's time to try a different art? Aikido is a natural progression from Karate and attracts grownups, although they are usually superannuated hippies and computer scientists. Tai chi could be interesting too if you get a good instructor but it tends to attract all the coffin dodgers.

Either way, you will probably be disappointed if you're expecting any apres training drinks / cinema trips etc. The Poles don't usually do them. If they do socialise, it's usually at the weekend or on larger organised trips at holiday time.

Try Lublin uni and see if they have any clubs. Actully, maybe not - I see that it's a theological college. Hmm. Not many priests need to kick ass for the lord these days.



Thanks for the vid by the way! Those guys are really tight on their form - I wish I was in that kind of shape. I was kind of like that about 10 kilograms ago back at uni but I've really let myself slip. I too miss my old college (TKD) class....

Elssha:
our dojo ... won medals in Italy this year

Well done!
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
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Edited by: Elssha   Jan 31, 09, 15:56 /  #
MrBubbles:
Try Lublin uni and see if they have any clubs. Actully, maybe not - I see that it's a theological college. Hmm. Not many priests need to kick ass for the lord these days.

LOL it's not as religious as all that (not a priest factory, at any rate), so I think I might just try that.
MrBubbles:
This is the main reaon I'm debating going back to my club next semester.

MrBubbles:
Where's that?
Maybe it's time to try a different art? Aikido is a natural progression from Karate and attracts grownups, although they are usually superannuated hippies and computer scientists. Tai chi could be interesting too if you get a good instructor but it tends to attract all the coffin dodgers.

Hmmmm... was thinking of trying aikido this coming semester at my uni... if i like it that IS an option. I kinda figured martial arts in PL would be more of the McDojo variety, so I don't quite want to start up an art there without at least some basics learned where you know the sensei are legit. I went to a semi-legit TKD place over the summer (was away from karate & didn't want to get out of shape and the dojo back home was questionable at best) and i'm still feeling my ankle at times from the drills they had us do -__-;
Specially with aikido, I'd want to learn how to fall properly first... or is aikido in PL not done on hardwood *cough*wimps*cough*?
MrBubbles:
Well done!

it was the dojo proper (non-uni) people who got the medals... the guy who's in the back at the start of the vid is one of the two medalists
Oh, and kudos on the 'coffin dodgers'... not sure if it's a brit thing or something, but I think that's the first time i heard (read) it and it was honestly LoLworthy ^_^

*shrug*
I just realized I entered the link wrong -___-;
Sochin demo by chad sensei
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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Edited by: MrBubbles   Feb 1, 09, 04:24 /  #
Elssha:
I kinda figured martial arts in PL would be more of the McDojo variety, so I don't quite want to start up an art there without at least some basics learned where you know the sensei are legit.

.. and you'd be right. One of the big problems, I reckon, is that there have been very few legitimate high grades who have come to Poland over the years to train up Polish instructors. Consequently, the vast majority of 'schools' I've tried see TKD / Karate classes as little more than 'boxing with throws and kicks'. Sometimes the method of instruction seems to come straight from the cobra kai dojo in the Karate Kid films. In fact a couple of years ago, there was a sotory which made the newspapers up here in Lodz about a young lad who was killed during an unregulated TKD tournament (He was knocked down during a 'semi contact' tournament and banged his head on the ground outside the ring). there was an outcry from the local MA community but as far as I know the club is still running. I paid them a visit a little before the tournament - they have a large picture of a ninja spray painted on the wall outside.

It's a shame because you get far more enthusiasm and commitment from Polish students on the whole and they could potentially do really well if they didn't have some macho instructor unfamiliar with any modern didactic principles shouting at them. Krav Maga is head and shoulders above the Karate schools here I hate to say - purely because they have regular contact with professional instructors.

Aikido clubs are usually quite good but try to get a high grade instructor. If he's in his 50's and anything above 3rd Dan, he's rock solid and the classes will be very good. He might also do Iaido lessons for the high grades. That would be a blast! Some of the lower Dan grades won't be as good,though, because they often have something to prove - maybe because their art, which is often regarded as a 'women's art' in this country, requires them to wear a skirt in the lessons - The older guys are a lot better balanced. Or if the instructor's a woman, even better.

Needless to say, I've never met an instructor who spent more than 2 mins before the class thinking about the plan for the lesson. Expect the unexpected!

But it;s not all bad - Most of the university approved clubs are OK and the PZKT organisation aren't too cowboy (if they are a little basic). Otherwise I'd advise you to wander along to a club and have a look before you try it.

Elssha:
Where's that?

Well, I tried Krav Maga in Lodz for a couple of months but I can't keep up with them at the moment cos I'm so fat http://www.kravmaga.com.pl/lodz/ but I've been going to karate on and off for the last couple of years depending on my schedule http://www.karatetradycyjne.pl/ They're a nice bunch but there's only a handful of adults...

What are you doing in Lublin?
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Feb 1, 09, 05:43 /  #
Will be starting med school this fall... planning to come to PL late Aug/early Sept
MrBubbles:
It's a shame because you get far more enthusiasm and commitment from Polish students on the whole and they could potentially do really well if they didn't have some macho instructor unfamiliar with any modern didactic principles shouting at them.

Yeah, i was playing around google and found some Lublin karate presentation vid... kids mostly, and I gotta say THISworries me...
MrBubbles:

few legitimate high grades who have come to Poland over the years to train up Polish instructors. Consequently, the vast majority of 'schools' I've tried see TKD / Karate classes as little more than 'boxing with throws and kicks'. Sometimes the method of instruction seems to come straight from the cobra kai dojo in the Karate Kid films.

Saddly many dojo in the states suffer the same fate, which makes the good schools have to combat what sensei term McDojo or KFCkarate (aka, cobra-kai).
Then again our sensei don't hide the fact that our dojo is nothing compared to Ryobu-kai schools in Japan (actually, we sometimes assume they underline it so as to force us to work harder). One of the things they tell us (probably because they know many of us will have to leave and thus dojo hunt when school ends) to look for is sensei who acknowledge that no matter their rank they are still learning, and ones that can explain bunkai in kata beyond the 'obvious' use. For instance, the different uses of ageuke... beyond the 'block face punch' thing.
MrBubbles:
Aikido clubs are usually quite good but try to get a high grade instructor

Perhaps the fact that it is more obscure than TKD or karate helped preserve it? Less kids = more level headed adults actually wanting to learn.
MrBubbles:
which is often regarded as a 'women's art' in this country, requires them to wear a skirt in the lessons

come now... hakama = pants... just very wide and pleated... there are two holes, not one ^_^ Personally, I love hakama (thought yeah, I am a girl...), it not only looks good but does a lot to hide leg movements. Haven't worn it in like 4 years... kinda miss it, though folding it after practice was a royal pain kendo... I assume the aforementioned gender revelation and a polish pedigree basically point out which kendoka is little ol' me ^_^
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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  Feb 1, 09, 11:34 /  #
Elssha:
Perhaps the fact that it is more obscure than TKD or karate helped preserve it?

You could have a point there. Polish socuiety is great at taking potentially dangrous alternative things and making them mainstream and mediocre. Take hip hop - once the voice of disenfranchised black artists, protesting about jobs, drugs and the man, now a backing track to groups of 12 year old girls dancing in shopping malls, with granny clapping delightly as the singer shouts 'shake yo' sexy ass baby'. Karate is the same. Once a powerful path to self realisation, physical fitness and of course kicking people's butt, now something kids and maths lecturers do twice a week to earn belts. Sigh. Perhaps it's better that arts like Shindo Jinen Ryu stay 'underground' to keep the staddards high.

Dude you look good in your kendo pic. That armour must cost a fortune. One thing you'll miss is having access to that kind of instruction and equipment. I personally would give my right kidney to train with an authentic Shaolin monk but he would a) cost a fortune b) never be in Poland and c) probably not do it anyway...

Elssha:
Will be starting med school this fall... planning to come to PL late Aug/early Sept

Good luck! Lublin has a good rep!
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Feb 1, 09, 16:32 /  #
MrBubbles:
Polish socuiety is great at taking potentially dangrous alternative things and making them mainstream and mediocre.

I think America beat Poland to that... though the diff here is that since the ethnic communities tend to congregate and at least the big ones preserve their way, you can find good or bad with enough searching (you also get more options).
MrBubbles:
Perhaps it's better that arts like Shindo Jinen Ryu stay 'underground' to keep the staddards high.

JKR (japaneese karate ryobu-kai) is actually quite big and popular, just no where near shotokan (in the states) or TKD. We're told that when it was brought over to US it adapted like most other imports anyway... it just did so less than some of the other ones. I'm also not naive enough to assume that there aren't any bad dojo in our style. I know in order to get a blackbelt in JKR masters go around to diff dojo once a year (org heads) and they decide if you get a black... not your own sensei. Is it like that in other styles?
MrBubbles:
Dude you look good in your kendo pic. That armour must cost a fortune. One thing you'll miss is having access to that kind of instruction and equipment. I personally would give my right kidney to train with an authentic Shaolin monk but he would a) cost a fortune b) never be in Poland and c) probably not do it anyway...

Thanks ^_^ i'm actually quite worried i'm going to look terribly 'fat american' when I come and try to blend with all my model-looking friends >_<
The armor is actually from Korea and cost me like $400, and that's with a 'sempai has a discount' thing AND no shipping since said sempai (who had his own dojo in korea) was flying back there and basically delivered it. The thing was a really nice set... though I had no idea ordering it that the green would be emerald (was a shock when I first took it out @ the dojo, let me tell you)... in the site pic it looked black with a green tint when the light hit it. I sold it last year though... after parents basically forbade me from doing kendo. That in turn was due to injuries that were mainly due to sensei letting us advance too fast and leaving us in the care of a guy with no sense of 'accuracy degrades after a summer without practice'. I won't get into it too much.
Yeah, i realize that i'll miss the instructors. Their dedication is really what shapes how well you know. Ours tell us that the black belt is like a HS diploma... it means you can now start really learning stuff, and that you can never fully learn karate. My friend (they are working him hard, mind you, so it's not like that for everyone) has had his green (7th kyu) for almost a year now. I'm probably not going to leave green before heading to PL either, now that I think about it. My kokutsudachi needs a TON of work before I can even hope sensei will ask me to test >_<.
Is it just me, or did the pic link disappear?
As for sholin, wushu looks amazing, but I'd be worried as far as any transferability to actual 'get out of a tough situation' goes... unless assailants are so impressed by a triple somersault that they flee. The true art (i'm told) is actually scary good, but EXTREMELY hard to find.
Main thing i like about karate is the 'keep it simple, stupid' approach to combat. Yes, tornado kick looks good... but in real life you'll be on your ass and the opponent will be laughing.
We had a TKD/Karate fusion student enter the university class one quarter. During one of the spar drills where you were told to throw 2 punches and any kick he decided to do this thing... did the whole back up and go at it running thing and everything.
One foot lifts off, second foot lifts off, he goes down. Sensei is just looking still a good yard away from where his feet ended up and the guy gets up to limp off.
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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  Feb 3, 09, 15:17 /  #
Elssha:
Main thing i like about karate is the 'keep it simple, stupid' approach to combat. Yes, tornado kick looks good... but in real life you'll be on your ass and the opponent will be laughing.

True. The kicks have their place though. Apparently in the original Pankration (the ancient Greek fighting art) flying kicks were used but more to build speed and strength in the lower body. They would never be used in the ring / on the battlefield, the fighters preferring low stamping kicks, hard oi tsuki style punches to the face and fast grabs to the opponent's fingers. There was also a huge range of wrestling techniques which have been since watered down in Olympic style wrestling. Incidentally, the 1,2,3 you're out rule is based on the idea that if you can hold your opponent down for a count of three, it's enough time to get your knife out and turn him into shish kebab.

I SUPPOSE there's a use for that twin flying side kick... perhaps if you're trying to close a distance quickly on an opponent or jump a fence to get away from a guard dog...

Elssha:
The armor is actually from Korea and cost me like $400

Mmm. It's definitely worth more by the look of it. At TKD the only armour we used were groinguard, gloves, mouthguard (I got a special one made up in sexy black and white) and some footpads that would get really cheesy after a while. Hell, after a couple of semesters, they would damn near spar by themselves. You know, arts like Karate and TKD were peasant arts, enjoyed by those unlucky not to be allowed a weapon. Kendo and other sword arts were always for the nobility and landed gentry. Anyone with any sense has always carried a weapon for self defence!

Elssha:
i'm actually quite worried i'm going to look terribly 'fat american' when I come and try to blend with all my model-looking friends

Don't worry man you look good. Most of the Polish girls over 14 who do Karate are usually pretty neurotic about their weight anyway no matter what the size. :)
ElsshaThreads: 1
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  Feb 4, 09, 23:59 /  #
MrBubbles:
Mmm. It's definitely worth more by the look of it.

the listed price was $500 something if I remember right.... so yeah, I got an extremely good deal. Sold it at next to no loss, too, though the person buying it still jumped at the chance. I was sad to see it go, but wouldn't chance mom making good on her threat to burn the lot after the pulled tricep >_<
Most of it is made of over-stitched cloth (quality determined by how close the stitch lines are to each other). The head peice has a titanium grill, the gloves deer leather and the do (big green thing) is leather stretched over plastic bamboo strips (real bamboo = insanely expensive; a good deal over $1000 for a full set).
MrBubbles:
arts like Karate and TKD were peasant arts, enjoyed by those unlucky not to be allowed a weapon

Still, they're more practical nowadays, where walking with a weapon would get you in jail or instigate a fight. I have a pocketknife, but as the blade is shorter than my thumb (or pinkie), I realize it's presence is more a security blanket and handy cutting utensil than something that can do any major damage if push came to shove in a sticky situation.
I'll try the jiu jitsu and aikido classes next (my final) quarter alongside karate to see which i prefer and get a little variation and some basics down if i do need to branch out once I go to PL. ^_^
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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  Feb 6, 09, 15:20 /  #
Elssha:
Most of it is made of over-stitched cloth (quality determined by how close the stitch lines are to each other). The head peice has a titanium grill, the gloves deer leather and the do (big green thing) is leather stretched over plastic bamboo strips (real bamboo = insanely expensive; a good deal over $1000 for a full set).

Wow. And I'm sure it's next to impossible to get something like that mass produced. What you had there was pretty much a work of art, on ethat may well be gradually dying out as the kids prefer to get trained in computers. I was thinking of Kendo a few years back but got put off by all the required equipment but I wish I could go to a club and borrow their gear from time to time.

Still, it's a rough looking art - I saw a photo of a kendo match where one of the competitiors got lifted off his feet by a sword thrust to the throat. Jeez....

Elssha:
Still, they're more practical nowadays.

That and being able to run fast :)

Elssha:
I'll try the jiu jitsu and aikido classes

Good idea. I can remember one of my old instructors saying that years ago in China, one's MA development began with a hard art similar to TKD or Karate, progressed through to another art similar to Aikido or Hsing-I before finally arriving at what was considered the ultimate - T'ai Chi. It's good to progress ...
TrevekThreads: 33
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  Feb 6, 09, 17:26 /  #
There's a couple of Kyokoshin clubs (quite big in Poland) and a TKD/Kick-boxing club (which I have an address for somewhere).
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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  Feb 8, 09, 11:15 /  #
Trevek:
TKD/Kick-boxing club

Well, this is the kind of thing I would avoid. There are clubs like this in Lodz and they try to be both but fail to be either. Typically the instructor is a Dan grade TKD who thinks that kickboxing is nothing more than full-contact ITF style TKD. I refer you to post #10

It's either TKD OR kickboxing.
ElsshaThreads: 1
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  Feb 8, 09, 13:11 /  #
MrBubbles:
Wow. And I'm sure it's next to impossible to get something like that mass produced. What you had there was pretty much a work of art

The cloth was machine stitched. The hand-stitched ones were crazy $$$$. The thing was probably still put together by hand but yeah. I was half sad to see it go, but honestly it sat for over a year on my wall and I think just letting it get old in a storage room somewhere was more disrespectful to the art than selling it to someone who would (hopefully) actually make good use of it.
MrBubbles:
Still, it's a rough looking art - I saw a photo of a kendo match where one of the competitiors got lifted off his feet by a sword thrust to the throat. Jeez....

LOL ... that's why you're not allowed to do a tsuki (throat poke) till you're really advanced. The sport is actually not too bad, injury-wise. I'm sporting a beautiful bruise from a white belt kicking my elbow at the moment (karate) and have had countless bruises from fencing (I did epee for three years)- none from kendo. A swollen wrist and achy ankles, yes, but no actual bruises. I think what got me most was the wrist and mom's worry over be being whacked on the head on a regular basis (and a sore elbow if the partner had bad aim when going for the do (chest armor plate... green in the pic).
The head hits hit the titanium rim and not the cloth (unless the shinai breaks... which is how you usually realize your partner's shinai needs to be replaced...) so all you feel if you have the men (helmet) on right are reverberations from the titanium grill.
The wrist strikes hurt, not gonna lie, but like i said, no bruises... and karate forearm conditioning drills are probably worse than wrist drills, just not done so close to the hand.

MrBubbles:
Good idea. I can remember one of my old instructors saying that years ago in China, one's MA development began with a hard art similar to TKD or Karate, progressed through to another art similar to Aikido or Hsing-I before finally arriving at what was considered the ultimate - T'ai Chi. It's good to progress ...

If you're at all into anime, I can show you an awesome one that fits that multi-style = advantage philosophy. Tai Chi is scary. Pure scary. They always practice in slow-motion (thus it's misleading harmless yoga-like rep) but when they go all out, OMG do you want to be anywhere but on their bad side! Since they practice all the moves insanely slow, their form is beautiful, so they don't get sloppy when pressed (muscle memory too strong). I'm talking about the ones that practice the non-yoga-relaxation type tai chi but real tai chi.... where you go slow most of the time but do some fast paced later, too.
Trevek:
TKD/Kick-boxing club

Tried TKD, messed up my ankle. Can't say I was too into the sparring that required padding on practically every part of your body and an over-reliance on kicks... then again the TKD place I went to wasn't exactly top notch, so maybe that's why I'm staying away from TKD in the future.
Also, I'm really into the traditions Trevek, and from what I've seen here those are most practiced in JPN styles. Kickboxing has none whatsoever and from my TKD experience formalities there are quite limited and mostly superficial.
Trevek:
Kyokoshin clubs

I'm not familiar with that style... from a quick google search it seriously looks more like TKD than any karate I've seen. Maybe the JPN equiv of TKD?
I'm basically looking for traditional karate; emphasis on kihon and kata, not just kumite.
MrBubblesThreads: 13
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  Feb 8, 09, 15:48 /  #
Elssha:
Maybe the JPN equiv of TKD?

You're actually very close there. Mas Oyama, the head of the style, was Korean and I dare say he got a lot of his influneces from the Korean MA schools. Then again, TKD was originally more or less Korean Shotokan - it was only created in the 1950s.

Elssha:
Can't say I was too into the sparring that required padding on practically every part of your body and an over-reliance on kicks... then again the TKD place I went to wasn't exactly top notch, so maybe that's why I'm staying away from TKD in the future.

Quite possibly you went to a lower quality dojang / dojo but then again, perhaps you've reached the point to move on and do something more challenging. TKD / Karate are good for beginners but you reach your limits much sooner than in other arts. I've found the people who stick with them and become masters are either peolpe who are fascinated by perfecting tiny details or who enjoy the sparring side. There are others of course who are scared to move on and try something new... I'd say there is little point for you to start TKD if you've progressed so far in Karate or Kendo...

Elssha:
(I did epee for three years)

Cool. Sword practice would be great, especially for the posture, but I heard a lot of Europe's sword masters died in the First World War. Others have been trained since then but obviously not from the masters - probably one of the few places you can get authentic instruction from a traditional school is the States these days?
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Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
Edited by: Elssha   Feb 9, 09, 08:09 /  #
MrBubbles:
Quite possibly you went to a lower quality dojang / dojo

yeah, it was a little off in the quality dept... it was something i did over the summer cuz I couldn't drive to my reg dojo more than once a week and since I wasn't enrolled in summer session at school, couldn't attend the on-campus karate sessions (plus live ~1h away from school)... felt that if I only went to fri practice at the dojo i'd get way too out of shape by the end of summer
MrBubbles:
TKD / Karate are good for beginners but you reach your limits much sooner than in other arts. I've found the people who stick with them and become masters are either peolpe who are fascinated by perfecting tiny details or who enjoy the sparring side.

I think you overestimate my ability in karate. I'm only 7kyu, with but the slimmest of hopes of advancing to 6th before leaving for PL. I also had to take 2 weeks off before my mcat and upon my return made an utter fool of myself doing heian nidan of all things.
MrBubbles:
probably one of the few places you can get authentic instruction from a traditional school is the States these days?

I'd think fencing would be more active in the EU than the states... though I think they'd not let me get away with my beloved pistol grip as I had at the school club...

MrBubbles:
Sword practice would be great, especially for the posture

LOL... that I got from being infatuated with horseback riding as a teen. Had my grandparents take me to the stables every day whenever I spent the summer in PL ^_^ sooo fun! Yay for riding lessons in PL being cheap (compared to US rates, anyway...)
TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08
  Feb 15, 09, 22:28 /  #
There's 2 kinds of TKD. The all-over padding is WTF TKD. ITF TKD is generally semi-contact but is based heavily on Shotokan.

Kyokoshin is considered a Japanese Karate. Mas Oyama considered himself Japanese and trained in Goju Ryu with Yamaguchi and Shotokan with Funakoshi. The style is no-pad kumite and involves kata.

It has a strong tradition, philosophy and theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushin_kaikan
JohnPThreads: -
Posts: 544
Joined: Sep 8, 07
  Feb 15, 09, 23:12 /  #
Elssha:
Main thing i like about karate is the 'keep it simple, stupid' approach to combat. Yes, tornado kick looks good... but in real life you'll be on your ass and the opponent will be laughing.

I don't know how the arts compare, but years ago I was lucky enough take American Kenpo (which taught lots of brutal nasty things...you couldn't do most of them in a fight and not go to prison, unless it was truly self defense-there were several world champions instructing) and later Shaolin Kempo, (which I didn't think was as good, although the higher black belts did get to take trips to China and the Shaolin temple).
Why do the high kicks, when you can buckle your opponents knees and kick him when he's down at a more reachable level....they used to make fun of the TaeKwonDo types, good natured ribbing...although TaeKwonDo looks a lot cooler. Krav Maga is getting a pretty good following now in the armed forces here, makes sense considering it was designed for soldiers...but when I came through everything seemed based on JiuJitsu of some sort.
Sorry for rambling, just wondered about what the differences where between Kempo/Kenpo and the art you are speaking of.




John P.
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Feb 16, 09, 08:24 /  #
JohnP:
Why do the high kicks, when you can buckle your opponents knees and kick him when he's down at a more reachable level....

LOL
Our sensei, when teaching self defense insist on the 'keep it simple' thing, too. They also stress that one shouldn't bother forcing the attacker to let go when a kick to the groin will loosen him up and make it 10x easier to do whatever throw/lock/get the hell out and away move you need to do.
JohnP:
they used to make fun of the TaeKwonDo types, good natured ribbing

Most places I've been do that to some extent, mostly because 90% of TKD is pure sport vs anything that will actually help in a real fight (most of that has been lost or isn't emphasized). Also the traditions have not been forced as much and a lot of the lower belts trying to do the fancy kicks end up making themselves look stupid and thus give TKD a bad rep (seen a guy do so myself... we all tried our hardest not to laugh but yeah...). Oh, and in TKD what to do once your opponent gets inside isn't emphasized, which is how i got everyone I spared with while I did it ^_^.
JohnP:
...although TaeKwonDo looks a lot cooler

If done right, yeah... if done wrong you either look stupid or seriously hurt yourself (even axe kicks and stuff that doesn't look too fancy carry a greater rist)
JohnP:
just wondered about what the differences where between Kenpo and the art you are speaking of.

kenpo/kempo is a Japanese term to collectively name chinese martial arts. To someone from china (found this one out first hand) the word draws a blank. The individual arts that fall under kenpo differ so I can't say what you did.

There is kempo karate wich is an american bastardization of karate and kung fu. I took that when I was a kid until we moved (got orange) and it was basically a full-blown mix of the two. We bowed in the chinese way (hand over fist bow vs the hands at your side karate bow), also had fewer traditions than legit karate dojo (I assume that is because you're taking two sets of moves and traditions and boiling them down into one art, but it could have also been just THAT dojo) and what I recall of watching the higher belts (this was over a decade ago) it had more flow than pure karate.

Shaolin kung fu is a style, I assume if yours said shaolin kenpo it actually refered to shaolin kung fu. Kung fu can be classified as circular style, as a lot of the moves concentrate on flowing from one into the next. It tends to focus (from what I understand) on using the momentum created from one move to facilitate the next. It also tends to look more showy than Karate, as this leads to movement exaggeration to enhance the user's force.

Karate, which is what I practice, is hard and direct. Each move is distinct and usually uses a solid foundation as the source of extra power. A punch, for example, is driven straight and (this is kinda hard to explain) is pushed from the ground. By this I mean that you lock your leg and twist your hip so your punch basically originates where your foot pushes against the ground and your fist transfers the force into your opponent (it probably still sounds weird but if sensei explained and showed you, it WOULD make sense even to a physicist...). Karate also focuses on one punch, one kill (knock out/win/point in sport), which basically translates to make one move and do it well vs a ton of little shitty hits (boxing does lots of rapid punches to wear at the opponent).

TKD is korean, though it has been americanized to the point where only the slimmest traditions survived. The moves are usually said in english (not that some of the more traditional styles don't have dojos that also use the eng terms... but on the whole, TKD almost always does) and it's 80% kicks 20% punches. The kicks are way overstated (tons of fancy ones using twists and leg switching) to theoretically enhance their power... practically to make it look better and the punches are often forgotten in sparring. The style originated as a mid range style (karate is a mostly short-range style) where you kept your opponents too far away for punches to have effect.

Ju Jitsu is japanese, and concentrates mostly on take downs and throws, joint locks and that like. I don't know much more than that, sorry. Aikido (JPN as well) also does a lot of throws but from what I can tell also incorporates more karate-type moves than ju jitsu. Both try to basically use your opponent's momentum to knock them down and/or hurt them. Karate does too to a smaller extent.

Kendo is a JPN sport version of kenjitsu, which itself is somewhere between kendo and iaido. In iaido, you basically practice the art of drawing the sword (katana) and doing elaborate slashes that teach you how to handle the blade. It and kenjitsu use a bokken, which is a solid sword-shaped peice of wood. Kenjitsu adds contact (pretend contact to light contact, as bokken HURT) to iaido, focusing beyond drawing the blade and at kata sparring (where you memorize the forms you'll do) and from what my friends tell me some additional fun stuff iaido doesn't do. Kendo (called kumdo in korea) is a full-contact with armor sport version, using a shinai (4 peices of bamboo tied together to make for a dampened impact) and heavy, expensive armor. head, stomach, wrists and (mostly for advanced ppl) the throat are targets... it is considered the asian form of fencing as we know it today.

There's also kyudo (JPN archery) but that's so boring I won't say much except it has too much tradition for even me (at least where I tried it) and uses a log bow.

There's also capoera, which is the slave dancing thing, where moves are hidden in what look like dance moves with a lot more ground combat (after you fall you still have things you can do to fight back) than most other arts and practiced with drum beats and memorizing kata-like routines.

Theres a lot more, too, but those are the ones I know most about (as you can tell I mostly stick to JPN... partly because I like the emphasis on tradition and being used to the commands, partly because the kung fu i wanted to try sux at my uni and I've not had time for capoera, etc).
Hope that helps a bit ^_^
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07
  Feb 16, 09, 11:10 /  #
Trevek:
There's 2 kinds of TKD

Spot on - There's TKD and there's WTF :)

Elssha:
TKD is korean, though it has been americanized to the point where only the slimmest traditions survived. The moves are usually said in english ... and it's 80% kicks 20% punches. The kicks are way overstated ... to theoretically enhance their power... practically to make it look better and the punches are often forgotten in sparring.

Well, you do have a couple of misconceptions here about TKD. The first thing to remember is that TKD is on of the most fragmented martial arts around with gazillions of different styles very loosely organised in federations. What you say is true for some but not all! Each instructor will have their own means of instruction and focus - whenether this is a good thing is debatable...

The 'TKD is 80% kicks' is a common argument. Admittedly there is a greater emphasis on kick training in most TKD classes than in most Karate classes, and the ITF sparring system usually scores kicks and lying techniques more (hence the greater number of kicks used in sparring and the legendary crap guard and short range work of the TKD student) but the 'art' itself in the dojang / dojo is more similar to Karate. Basic sparring drills are commonly performed with hand techniques and the 'tul' (kata) are 80% hand techniques up to black belt and a little way beyond. again, a lot depends on the instructor.

The kicks used by a TKD student are usually far better than those used by a comparable Karate student, mainly due to the TKD student's far greater exposure. They look good (at high grades) and are far stronger than an avaerage Karateka's becase they are practised more. A lot of ancdotal evidence suggests that the Shotokan mawashi geri was adopted in the syllbus from a Korean art (possibly TKD) - before than, Shotokan relied more on front kick and side kick (and a coulpe of others I can't remember).

I'd like to take a moment to talk about Karate. Many people like to leasure the martials arts against each other in terms of their fighting ability ("Yeah Kimo could whip a Karate man's butt" etc) but it is important to remember that many arts were not designed to teach fighting at all, or at least that original intention has been lost.

Shotokan Karate was developed by Funakoshi in Japan in the early 20th century. Japan was militarising for war and needed warm bodies to fight the gaijin. However, modern warfare had no need for the individual elite, only massed ranks of physically fit young men who would blindly follow orders. Any idiot can kill someone these days - you just need a gun and the willingness to use it.

How do you train these psychopaths? In the past, you would find a master who would train you one on one until you reached proficiency. When the master was satisifed that the student was good enough to teach, it was often the tradition to award some sort of present (like a belt, a sash or suchlike) as a kind of grauation gift.

Of course, there simply weren't enough masters to train up so many willing students, so Funakoshi developed the first mass market Martial Art. Interesting that this happened at around the same time Henry Ford was revolutionisng the production line but I digress. Funakoshi broke tradiitional martial arts down into their component parts and designed a syllabus to proficiency based on a set of patterns and basic drills. Belts were awarded to provide motivation to students and to let the teacher know what 'level' the student was (this also allows you to put students into groups). Above all though, the students were encouraged to lose their individuality and merge into the group by following the same drills and basic exercises, by listening only to the instructor and by getting their rewards from the instructor instead of their own sense of personal achievement.

In this way, Japan's university graduates were imbued with the mythical samurai fighting spirit that would allow them to go forth and massacre anyone who got in their way, such as the Chinese at Nanking, without a second thought.

Of course, Karate doesn't turn you into a psychopath - there were probably plenty of other nationalistic factors which helped - but it doesn't prepare you for a street fight. Perhap the iron will it fosters could help you overcome adversity, and the physical conditioning keeps you healthy later on in life (another good reason to do lots of high kicks as part of your training) but anyone who is serious about defending themselves (Police, army, inner city teachers etc.) carries a weapon of some sort.

Learning a martial art to defend yourself is like buying a Ferrari to do the grocery shopping in. Think about it.
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Feb 16, 09, 12:06 /  #
MrBubbles:
TKD is on of the most fragmented martial arts around with gazillions of different styles very loosely organised in federations. What you say is true for some but not all! Each instructor will have their own means of instruction and focus - whenether this is a good thing is debatable...

Yeah, I know about the fragmentation... was basically sticking to what I know. Sorry it got so long-winded... I was honestly just trying to give him a run-through of the differences (as I know them) for John
MrBubbles:
The 'TKD is 80% kicks' is a common argument. Admittedly there is a greater emphasis on kick training in most TKD classes than in most Karate classes, and the ITF sparring system usually scores kicks and lying techniques more (hence the greater number of kicks used in sparring and the legendary crap guard and short range work of the TKD student) but the 'art' itself in the dojang / dojo is more similar to Karate. Basic sparring drills are commonly performed with hand techniques and the 'tul' (kata) are 80% hand techniques up to black belt and a little way beyond. again, a lot depends on the instructor.

the 80% kicks is actually what the master of the TKD place I went to said, and I was referring to sparing. Their kata I stay away from because the short stances make me flinch from thinking what sensei would do if one of us tried them (I was actually scolded in TKD for having too long a stance...), as in karate they're far longer and (to me, at least) the TKD kata thus feel wrong.
MrBubbles:
The kicks used by a TKD student are usually far better than those used by a comparable Karate student, mainly due to the TKD student's far greater exposure. They look good (at high grades) and are far stronger than an avaerage Karateka's becase they are practised more.

Oh yeah, your kicks get better super fast in TKD, I'm 100% with you on that... though I'd limit that to the more basic ones. One of the things I was truly happy about after TKD was that my kicks for karate (yoko geri kekome, especially... the side kick) got really good and that I did learn a few extra useful kicks that I'm 80% sure I'd get away with using in sparring (or have learned later in karate).
The higher ranks have amazing and powerful kicks, but perhaps it was my center, but I felt they exposed the students to the more advanced twirly kicks too early when they should have made them really get the basic ones down first.
MrBubbles:
but it is important to remember that many arts were not designed to teach fighting at all, or at least that original intention has been lost.

I think it's more of the original intention being lost, as I can't think of an art that doesn't have fighting at its core (even tai chi... which at first seems like a perfect example). I haven't really heard of the war cannon fodder thing in relation to shotokan... but i know in the past the arts were not done on a one-on-one basis. The teaching was with a far better ratio than most dojo's provide now, but the teaching was still delegated to the best of and contained a lot more one-on-one time... but one master did not dedicated himself to a single pupil at a time, unless I REALLY got my facts mixed up. It was more the nationalistic factors and the tradition of a 'honor and orders are absolute' national mentality that went back so far that made the group mentality and willingness to take orders work.
MrBubbles:
anyone who is serious about defending themselves (Police, army, inner city teachers etc.) carries a weapon of some sort.

yup... and martial arts are another weapon/tool at their disposal. main reason why police/army learn this stuff is cuz it does offer tidbits that might turn the situation in their favor. Why should a police officer struggle to keep a guy down when twisting his arm a certain way basically keeps him down due to pain if he tried to get up? Buys you a free hand to reach for your cuffs ^_^
MrBubbles:
Learning a martial art to defend yourself is like buying a Ferrari to do the grocery shopping in. Think about it.

I think it's more like reading the title page and expecting to understand the whole book. I think eventually continual practice would facilitate that, but like sensei said, it's a life-long process, and a person who's a blackbelt is but a gradeschool graduate and thus ready to start learning the real stuff. Someone who does karate or some other art for a couple years and expects to be unbreakable is an idiot.
I agree its not a good way to learn street fighting, nor that it will let you go all jackie chan on a hoard of folks looking to beat you up, but it does help a little... mostly little things that when added up do make a difference. I mean, first off it gets you to be more aware of your body's capabilities and weaknesses... even if it doesn't show you a sure fire winning strike. It (if it has a self-defense section... even if you only recall the most basic pointers sensei tells you) opens your mind up to defensive strategies you might not have thought of before... a pressure point or a way to get someone to let go. Also it gets you to at least have somewhat elevated dodge/block instinct from doing bouts. You do it long enough and throwing out blocks (or at least the starting motion of the blocks... which is better than nothing) becomes subconscious (a silly example, but I've found that my arm will move to block a friend's poke before I realize the poke is coming sometimes...).
I'm not learning this stuff for fighting... still, I think it's better than nothing as far as being 'prepared' for such an unfortunate occurrence goes.
JohnPThreads: -
Posts: 544
Joined: Sep 8, 07
  Feb 16, 09, 21:34 /  #
Elssha:
MrBubbles: anyone who is serious about defending themselves (Police, army, inner city teachers etc.) carries a weapon of some sort.


yup... and martial arts are another weapon/tool at their disposal. main reason why police/army learn this stuff is cuz it does offer tidbits that might turn the situation in their favor. Why should a police officer struggle to keep a guy down when twisting his arm a certain way basically keeps him down due to pain if he tried to get up? Buys you a free hand to reach for your cuffs ^_^

Agreed. And thanks for the link, btw...will look at it soon as I get to a less blocked computer.
Former statement to much military training being based on Jiujitsu and similar probably apply here. Submission holds, take downs, etc. Just because we have a weapon does not always mean it is desirable or even allowable to use it. For instance if you are sent to break up a bar fight between two drunks....one cannot simply shoot both of them, nor liberally apply the side handle baton/rifle butt/etc...
Also there are times when a weapon is simply not available quick enough. The FBI did a study in which it was found an assailant with a knife could land a fatal blow on an agent almost every time before the agent could draw his weapon, so long as the attacker was within 19 feet.
We also bowed in the "Chinese" style as you called it, and we had Sifus, not Sensei's...in both my American Kenpo studio and the Shaolin Kempo....although the former (American version)had the self defense world champions and by far the best instruction. Those guys and girls had nothing to prove and were the most down to earth people you will ever meet. The American Kenpo was brutal and seemed extremely applicable to a street fight. There's no way one could legally apply most of what I learned in a casual scuffle. Interestingly, while I've never taken Shotokan, they did emphasize punches and kicks being braced from the leg and striking "with the core". The Shaolin Kempo was a little less brutal, but perhaps I did not stay at it long enough. One of my fellow students in the first was a brown belt in Aikido, and after talking it over that sounds like a good art to learn too, lots of passive moves, throws, holds, etc that go for submission but (apparently) not necessarily harm. In this litigious world, something like that might be good to know. Or at least take something from jiujitsu or judo, for when the fight goes to the ground. Something that neither of the above seemed to emphasize much.


One for when your life is in danger, and one for when less lethality is called for.


John P.
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Feb 17, 09, 00:30 /  #
one of my sensei taught police here, thus my officer example above. We know about it mostly because a lot of the locks he shows us he edits with 'this is taught to people who have no choice but to stay with the assailant. If this is a mugger, you stop at this part, push here and run the other way' at times.
JohnP:
Interestingly, while I've never taken Shotokan, they did emphasize punches and kicks being braced from the leg and striking "with the core"

that's the one.
JohnP:
self defense world champions and by far the best instruction

in martial arts, the quality of the teacher really effects how the pupils learn
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07
Edited by: MrBubbles   Feb 21, 09, 17:51 /  #
Got back from sword training at Karate the other day. The instructor's got a friend who's a sabre fighing instructor and she said it would be a good complement for the Karate. He seems more or less bona fide but we were only doing basic stuff with rubber swords so it's difficult to tell.

I'm sorry to say that the lesson was pretty much typical Polish martial arts club. As usual, the class was roughly 50:50 under 10s and adults (mainly the kids' parents). The instructor gave everyone a sword but forgot the children can't keep focussed for more than 30 seconds when they have a sword in their hand. He therefore decided to leave them to re-enact Pirates of the Carribbean while he chatted with individual adults about blocks and how to stand.

Apart from the obvious health and safety issues, this was incredibly distracting and the whole thing felt less of a class and more of bonding session for adults and children. Shame really. A good idea spoilt by the instructor's inability to take it seriously and offer seperate adult and children classes. There were other issues but I won't go on about them here. Oh well.
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09
  Feb 23, 09, 07:55 /  #
lol
A friend got me to try our dojo's kenjutsu class last week... thus my surprise that you'd mention swords now.
The class is only once a week (sat morning), and it's one of the few times we've had kids and adults together. There were probably 3-5 little (8-12yrs) boys but they're all from karate (same senseis do kenjutsu) so they did mostly do as told. The few times they started something all it took from senseis was a (amazingly coordinated) "pay ATTENTION" to get the to stop and fall back into regular practice. I think it helps that sensei lower their rank (make them wear a lower belt for a while) if they goof off too much in karate. Even those were a distraction (specially since I had no idea what everyone was doing. It was super fun, despite the confusion, and I think I'll keep going while I can (gives me an excuse to wear my hakama and kekogi from kendo ^_^), though that also means buying a bokken.
Oh, you mentioned equipment in PL being hard to find. I went back to E-bogu's site to look at bokken and noticed they have an outlet in germany. I can vouch for their quality around here being good and the prices relatively cheap, though I don't know what they would charge for shipping (with an outlet in germany though, i assume it remains resonable). Might as well check their website; they carry everything from uniforms to weapons and so one.
I found one website of a dojo in Lublin that has an adults-only class... can't for the life of me find it again... it was one of those times I seriously wish I hadn't been too tired to scour the other sections to see if the dojo seemed legit enough (or to bookmark the damn site >_<).

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