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How deep is the Gloom in the Polish Economy


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AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 24, 11, 15:33    #61

Apartments are obviously a different scale to what we are talking about (a simple house),


The only rerason I mentioned "a house" was the fact it was obvious you have never built commercially. I am not making bold claims, the type of construction and the price of the land have a huge influence on the cost per m2 as does the access and location.You see a finished building and you try to equate the price by judging it against others. The developer may have a lot more costs than he expects, even before he starts on site.

I wrote this 18 months ago and it still applies:-

Avalon Jan 6, 10, 21:06 Send PM #54
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Does bureaucracy affect the end price here more than in other countries that you've done development in?

Yes, and its a lot more expensive here than in the UK.
eg:Small block of flats in the UK, architect, planning permission, buidling inspector. £4-5000.00.
This includes 5 visits from Local council building inspector.

Poland, architect, planning permission £10-20,000 depending on greed. You then have to employ your own building inspector and pay him around around £100.00. a month for 1 or 2 half hour visits and this is for the duration of the contract. On completion, you pay £200.00. each for the electrics and water connection to be tested and certified and "stamped" (this is not carried out by the companies that install same)
The city council then have to "sign off" the building (legalize it) and if there is any discrepancy on any measurements you are fined £600.00. On my parking spaces (for 26 cars I was undersized by 60cm, apparently, nobody in Poland drives a Maluch, they all drive SUV's or Rolls Royces) so was fined. They always find something wrong so there is always a fine. (Nobody told me this in the beginning but apparently its the norm in Poland)
On 13 apartments, the man that issues the "energy certificate" ( or HIPS as its known in the UK) wanted £200.00. per apartment but managed to talk him down to £900.00. as a job lot.

I could write a book or make a film about getting the electricity, water and gas companies to actually connect the building up to the mains services. You have to get the written permission of all the neighbours and landowners over/under wherever the cables/pipes pass and God help you if they live abroad or in the North of poland. This does not include the 50 visits to each office to sign different forms and sometimes travel to 3 different offices to get them "stamped".


I would have to say that time and moneywise, its at least 400% more expensive to do the paperwork for a project of identical size in the UK. This does not take into consideration, the stress of having to deal with the dumb bast***ds.

The moment you buy the land to build on, you pay a business tax, based on the size of the land until you have sold all the properties (this does not apply in the UK)

I have more paperwork for one project than I had for 10 years continuous work in the UK.

So when you read what Mark Biernat (Polsky, etc, etc, etc or whatever name he decides to use on the day) posts on these property threads, you know he is talking out of his ass.

"That's again big time BS. We examplined all costs into building,
and total cost NEVER surpassed 1000 PLN/sq.m. built".

I would want that just for the paperwork.

Its the "hidden" extras that you cannot allow for, even with a contingency sum.

So you worked in IT, that explains a lot.
AngelNCThreads: 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Dec 19, 07 ♀ 		Edited by: AngelNC  Sep 24, 11, 16:25    #62
[quote=Polsyr Poland's economy is doing better than most nations.[/quote]

Instead to answer to your post myself, I'm gonna post enkidu's statement which pretty much sums it all up pretty realistically and honestly in my eyes.

Enkidu said:
"I wouldn't be so happy. Poland is doing well during world crisis simply because our economy is backward and outdated.
We are not really connected to the world's financial markets. The "service based" economy is still in it's early stages.
Polish economy base on exploitation of natural resources, production sector etc.
And don't forget this even now in the crisis - the GDP (nominal) per capita place Poland on the 47th place.
By comparison - The UK is on the 22 place.
In simple words - life is better in the UK during the crisis than in Poland in the times of hossa.
Sad but true."
wielki panThreads: 3
Posts: 278
Joined: Jan 7, 11 ♂ 		 Sep 25, 11, 03:05    #63
On 13 apartments, the man that issues the "energy certificate" ( or HIPS as its known in the UK) wanted £200.00. per apartment but managed to talk him down to £900.00. as a job lot.


sounds like doom and gloom when building in Poland, however if you divide the costs into 13 its not that bad? the fact remains people never lay foundations in the winter, its done in summer, leave for 1 years to allow the earth to settle and think about buildling in the 2/3 yr.. I know getting permission to build is a nightmare, if one neighbour objects it can really put a spanner in the works, I'm going through a paper warfare with my miasto, its 13months and still counting, I predict it will take me 4 years to complete my project. The easy way is to bribe people, but I'm not prepared to do so. Don't doubt what you are saying, but I sense things are getting better and this sick communist mentality is disappearing, or maybe not!
AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 25, 11, 09:43    #64

I know getting permission to build is a nightmare


Actually, the architect was instructed in the November and all buildng permissions were obtained to allow us to start at the beginning of the following April.

The problems occured over the next year with having to get an electricity pole moved to keep the wires 6 mtrs from the building. According to the electricity company we had to pay for a new concrete pole either side of the one to be moved. This involved getting the written permission of everyone whose land the wires passed over. Tracking down the owners and getting the paperwork signed was a nightmare. The cost was around 30,000 PLN.
On a similar project in the UK, I had to get a lampost moved from one side off the street to the other. It was done within two weeks of asking permission and the cost was the equvilant of 4,500 PLN.
There is no stormwater system in the area I built, all the houses run the rainwater pipes under their front gardens and into a ditch. Common sense was for me to do the same. Not according to the local council. I had to get an envoiromental report at a cost of 2000 PLN to show that the rain that fell on the neighbouring fields was exactly the same as the rainwater I piped into the ditch, decision time, three months. Other people have built new houses since and none have been asked to supply this certificate.
Nobody at any stage of the project, warns you that these things are required, you just have to find out as you proceed. There is always, always one more stamp you need and a repeat viewing of the original document after its been filed away or its at the notaries office.
Like you, I do not believe in bribing people.

but I sense things are getting better and this sick communist mentality is disappearing,


I hope so as well but I would not hold my breath waiting.
peterwegThreads: 35
Posts: 1,989
Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: peterweg  Sep 26, 11, 16:59    #65
And don't forget this even now in the crisis - the GDP (nominal) per capita place Poland on the 47th place.
By comparison - The UK is on the 22 place.
In simple words - life is better in the UK during the crisis than in Poland in the times of hossa.

Given that a recent survey place Poland as the country with the happiest people I don't beleive world GDP per capita ranking have any relevance on the quality of life. The UK is often placed low becuase its a very expensive place to live and in the SE it is very crowded. Having a falling GDP and personal spending power is far worse that the both rising, as it is in Poland.


Other people have built new houses since and none have been asked to supply this certificate.
Nobody at any stage of the project, warns you that these things are required, you just have to find out as you proceed.

. I for one are more interested in building on agro/building land not commercial flat building. Even the figures you quote for hassles don't make a dent on the overall cost (which you haven,'t given). But your 6k/m2 figure is higher than other builders are selling for, including land, and higher than the sales price for all sorts of completed property.

So you worked in IT, that explains a lot.

Leave out the Ad Hominem
AngelNCThreads: 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Dec 19, 07 ♀ 		 Sep 26, 11, 17:14    #66
[quote=peterweg Given that a recent survey place Poland as the country with the happiest people[/quote]

Not one Pole I know (and I know quite a few), would confirm that statement. In fact, most Poles are still pretty unhappy with their lives in Poland. If not, why do you think so many Poles emigrate?
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: TheOther  Sep 26, 11, 17:38    #67
As long as the country doesn't produce more goods that are competitive on the world market, the so-called economic success is just a big fat (political) lie, and sooner or later there will be a rude awakening, I'm afraid. Some people here deny it, but without the EU cash there would be no gloom.
peterwegThreads: 35
Posts: 1,989
Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 26, 11, 18:10    #68
Not one Pole I know (and I know quite a few), would confirm that statement.

Well I guess you must hang about with so miserable people

http://en.poland.gov.pl/Poles,the,happiest,in,Europe,Events,7072x1288. html

The Poles I speak too are all happy about being here and none of them wanted to stay in the UK.
AngelNCThreads: 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Dec 19, 07 ♀ 		Edited by: AngelNC  Sep 26, 11, 18:20    #69
[quote=peterweg Well I guess you must hang about with so miserable people[/quote]

Hm, miserable people but they reflect the opinions of millions of other Poles too. Quit posting links, talk with the real Poles instead.
Just like The Other said "As long as the country doesn't produce more goods that are competitive on the world market, the so-called economic success is just a big fat (political) lie".
AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 26, 11, 20:59    #70
But your 6k/m2 figure is higher than other builders are selling for, i


Would you like to give some examples?

This is what I actually said,

If it costs 4-5-6000 PLN m2 to build,


I also qualified it by stating that it depended on the materials you used.

Stick to the IT, you may know something about that.
peterwegThreads: 35
Posts: 1,989
Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 26, 11, 21:03    #71
Stick to the IT, you may know something about that.


I see you have not provided any evidence whatsoever to backup your figures.
AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 27, 11, 16:37    #72

I see you have not provided any evidence whatsoever to backup your figures.


I will refer you to WB's post #5, 3rd Jan. How much does it cost to build per m2 in Poland.
"Price wise you get what you pay for, i listed 2500 - 3000 as average, if you want marble flooring though out or laminate, sheet metal roof panels or traditional clay tiles, pretty endless really."

I agree with this. Teflcat had a cost of 2,000PLN m2 by doing it himself over a period of 6 years. Most people are not prepared to do this.
peterwegThreads: 35
Posts: 1,989
Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: peterweg  Sep 27, 11, 21:52    #73
"Price wise you get what you pay for, i listed 2500 - 3000 as average, if you want marble flooring though out or laminate, sheet metal roof panels or traditional clay tiles, pretty endless really."

So we are in agreement. Some how I thought you were talking about a figure of 6k.
AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 27, 11, 22:01    #74
So we are in agreement. Some how I thought you were talking about a figure of 6k.



I said 4-5-6000PLN m2 depending on materials used. What is so difficult to understand? If you DIY then is obviously going to be cheaper. Do you expect a builder/developer to do it for cost? You are as bad as Milky!!!!
HavokThreads: 14
Posts: 1,508
Joined: Mar 12, 10  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Havok  Sep 27, 11, 22:34    #75
LMAO that's funny. Last time I visited this forum was about half a year ago, but the song hasn't changed a bit.

OP is trying to ask you a simple question, people.

How do you think the decaying economy of the richest countries of EU is going to directly affect the development of Poland in the upcoming years? It's neither a tricky question nor an attack. He’s not trying to discredit Poland's recent progress in anyway... again, you guys take this waaaaaaay too personal.

OP, I’ll answer your question in a short and concise manner. :) Most likely things are going to get shittier and shittier for the poor and middle class but I hope not as sh1tty as in PRL times. Poland! Brace for impact. The EU loans are about to run out.
GOOOEUUUuuuu...! <poof> gone.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Sep 27, 11, 22:35    #76
The EU loans are about to run out.

On the contrary - there's plenty of cash budgeted for the next period. Around 70-80 billion Euro, in fact. And these are grants, not loans.
wielki panThreads: 3
Posts: 278
Joined: Jan 7, 11 ♂ 		 Sep 27, 11, 23:56    #77
On the contrary - there's plenty of cash budgeted for the next period. Around 70-80 billion Euro, in fact. And these are grants, not loans.



Not doubting Mr D, but its strange that the EU is having trouble keeping some EU countries afloat and it has this sort of money to give free of charge to Poland etc.. somehow me thinks something will have to give! Who is providing the money or is it being loaned by China?
HavokThreads: 14
Posts: 1,508
Joined: Mar 12, 10  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Havok  Sep 27, 11, 23:59    #78
On the contrary - there's plenty of cash budgeted for the next period. Around 70-80 billion Euro, in fact. And these are grants, not loans.

Right, and they will give all that grant money away while their people are starving and revolting back home. See, you guys are always going to be two notches below the normal standard of living with your backwards thinking. Also this is exactly why there is no point in having discussions like this one with you all.

yes! there is a very clear possibility that things may get worse in Poland because of the economic downturn, it's clear. Get to work and better start figuring out how you gonna deal with it. No! Sh1t havok! that's just crazy talk, give me a source or a link.

Well I can’t, cos there is no link on the net that can teach you common sense bud . It ain't gonna happen Dope.
wielki panThreads: 3
Posts: 278
Joined: Jan 7, 11 ♂ 		 Sep 28, 11, 10:32    #79
See, you guys are always going to be two notches below the normal standard of living with your backwards thinking. Also this is exactly why there is no point in having discussions like this one with you all.


Have to use your communication skills to get these people back on track. I don't think the EU has a bucket load of funds to give away, notwithstanding the crisis facing some of the EU countries. When Poland slips into recession these people like Mr D will still be in denial., I hope not.
peterwegThreads: 35
Posts: 1,989
Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 28, 11, 10:52    #80
"Price wise you get what you pay for, i listed 2500 - 3000 as average, if you want marble flooring though out or laminate, sheet metal roof panels or traditional clay tiles, pretty endless really."

I agree with this. Teflcat had a cost of 2,000PLN m2 by doing it himself over a period of 6 years




I said 4-5-6000PLN m2 depending on materials used. What is so difficult to understand? If you DIY then is obviously going to be cheaper. Do you expect a builder/developer to do it for cost? You are as bad as Milky!!!!


So you are saying 2.5-6k depending on finish and materials. 2k if you DIY.
AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 28, 11, 11:32    #81

So you are saying 2.5-6k depending on finish and materials. 2k if you DIY.


No, I am saying that it should be around 4 to 6,000PLN if you get a builder in to do it. This should include internal walls, plastering, 2 coat emulsion to walls, stairs, external paths, driveway, fencing, front boundry wall, gate access and connection to media. Depending on what materials are used and would include a builders profit. It would exclude, internal doors, flooring, tiling, sanitry ware, kitchen unit and worktops. When estimating, you cannot expect the builder to know if the client wants a 5,000 or a 20,000PLN kitchen and usually, the client nearly always changes their mind when the finishes are to be installed.
milkyThreads: 10
Posts: 1,224
Joined: Oct 26, 09 ♀ 		 Sep 28, 11, 11:49    #82
Do you expect a builder/developer to do it for cost? You are as bad as Milky!!!!

Did I say that??
AvalonThreads: 3
Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 28, 11, 12:29    #83

Did I say that??


The figures you have quoted over the past 3 years would be even less than cost. Have you wondered why nobody takes your posts seriously?
milkyThreads: 10
Posts: 1,224
Joined: Oct 26, 09 ♀ 		 Sep 28, 11, 12:47    #84
The figures you have quoted over the past 3 years would be even less than cost.

Did I make a quote on the cost of building??
Have you wondered why nobody takes your posts seriously?

Stop making personal attacks, you are a sad man . Plenty of people disagree with you as well.

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