European Union Fund Allocations.

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Edited by: Moderator Jan 30, 12, 15:02 #1

Ironside:

Don't tell me that you are buying EU propaganda?

here's what i'm buying into:

http://bankwatch.org/billions/2006/detail.shtml

ironside wrote:

Don't worry they will squeeze out more than they put in!

either the facts in that link, and everything else I've read on the subject are wrong or Poland gets more money than any other member state. when we consider that each EU state gives the same percentage of its GDP and 1% of its VAT to generate EU monies and that Poland, in 2010, ranked 10th in overall GDP, I'd say they're getting a heck of a lot more than they're putting in.

mod created thread.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Jan 30, 12, 15:44 #2
Ironside: Don't worry they will squeeze out more than they put in! Already Poland will put up monies for stabilization of Euro without say in the matters of [the ]Euro zone![/i]! Don't tell me that you are buying EU propaganda? Poland is the biggest net benefactor of EU funds.

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Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS Jan 31, 12, 13:18 #3

JonnyM:

Poland is the biggest net benefactor of EU funds.

Here's what's annoying about this statement:

It's totally true, I posted a link above to drive this home even more, people aren't disputing it (because it's true) yet in a week or two, people will start talking about it again as if nobody ever made this statement and that they have never heard of such a thing. To boot, it will have changed nothing in their discourse about anything in Poland. It is amazingly cyclical. Total denial of the facts over and over, then you beat them into admitting to it, then it comes back.

And I don't think it's just this forum, I don't even think it's Poland. It actually reminds me of the extreme right in the USA.

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Edited by: gumishu Jan 31, 12, 14:12 #4

FUZZYWICKETS:

JonnyM:
Poland is the biggest net benefactor of EU funds.

Here's what's annoying about this statement:

It's totally true, I posted a link above to drive this home even more,

well, if you state that Poland receives the most EU funds why don't you look at how it looks from the per capita perspective - from per capita point of view Poland is by no means priviledged : http://www.kpmg.com/RO/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Press -releases/Documents/EU%20Funds%20in%20CEE%202011_KPMG.pdf - page 7 of the document contains the critical data
(if you ever wondered Poland receives the least EU funds per capita among the countries who joined the EU in 2004, Romania and Bulgaria receive two times less then Poland though (they joined later on different conditions) - Czech Republic, Estonia and Hungary all receive close to 50 per cent more EU funds per capita than Poland

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 31, 12, 14:33 #5
gumishu: Czech Republic, Estonia and Hungary all receive close to 50 per cent more EU funds per capita than Poland But that really is peanuts - all of those countries have nowhere near the population of Poland. Per capita, the amount isn't that impressive - but the total number is impressive.

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Jan 31, 12, 14:42 #6

gumishu:

Czech Republic, Estonia and Hungary all receive close to 50 per cent more EU funds per capita than Poland

That isn't right how they go about giving funds, it should be per capita and equally. Some say Poland is getting a lot others what is 67 billion in todays money for a country that size with that any people??? The Czech Rep. is doing much better than Poland so that doesn't make any sense.

National debt as % of GNP

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Jan 31, 12, 14:46 #7

FUZZYWICKETS:

Here's what's annoying about this statement:

It's totally true, I posted a link above to drive this home even more, people aren't disputing it (because it's true) yet in a week or two, people will start talking about it again as if nobody ever made this statement and that they have never heard of such a thing.

there is also another thing to this - the 65 billion allocated to Poland is the maximum sum we can get (IIRC the last budget period 2004-2007 ended with Poland about 60 per cent of the budget allocated to it) - but it's not a sure thing - many (like most) projects that receive grants have to be in significant part also funded by the Polish side (it is 50 per cent very often) - you then have to allocate some 10 billion euro to meet these demands - Polish government already anounced that it cuts spending on new infrastructure (road) projects in 2012 (TBH I don't know is it's gonna affect the usage of the 2007-2013 budget allocated to Poland)

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Edited by: delphiandomine Jan 31, 12, 14:47 #8

PennBoy:

That isn't right how they go about giving funds, it should be per capita and equally. Some say Poland is getting a lot others what is 67 billion in todays money for a country that size with that any people??? The Czech Rep. is doing much better than Poland so that doesn't make any sense.

That wouldn't make any sense at all - if it was per capita, then those countries would be getting barely anything. Large sewer works (like what's taking place in Poznan, costing well over a billion zloty with a massive chunk of EU cash) are going to cost the same in Estonia or Poznan - yet there's more people living in Warsaw than in Estonia.

And the Czech Republic isn't doing much better than Poland - if you see the state of places like Nachod, you'd soon change your mind.

Anyway, complaining about not getting more free money - whatever next?!

Gummi - one big issue with Poland was with the railways. Quite a lot of cash went unspent - entirely due to the paralysis that seems to surround the railways in this country.

(and yes - the continuation of the disaster that is Przewozy Regionalne is one good reason to be annoyed with the government)

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Edited by: gumishu Jan 31, 12, 14:49 #9

delphiandomine:

Per capita, the amount isn't that impressive - but the total number is impressive.

total numbers mean nothing - imagine China was receiving such financial aid - per capita would be more than 20 times lower than in Poland - will it affect Chinese economy to any percieveable degree (substitute India for China if you think China is not a good example)

delphiandomine:

Anyway, complaining about not getting more free money - whatever next?!

Gummi - one big issue with Poland was with the railways. Quite a lot of cash went unspent - entirely due to the paralysis that seems to surround the railways in this country.

I am not complaining - I am putting things in right perspecive - right?

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Edited by: PennBoy Jan 31, 12, 14:59 #10

delphiandomine:

That wouldn't make any sense at all - if it was per capita, then those countries would be getting barely anything. Large sewer works (like what's taking place in Poznan, costing well over a billion zloty with a massive chunk of EU cash) are going to cost the same in Estonia or Poznan - yet there's more people living in Warsaw than in Estonia.

Yes but compared to the Czech Rep. or Hungary which Poland has a 3.5 or 4 larger population and is as many times larger. Even if the money isn't directly allocated to every citizen, and is used to build roads and other infrastructure because the area of the country is that many more times larger when compared to those two examples (Czech Rep., Hungary), it basically could be counted per capita. As for Estonia well if per capita isn't overall fair then something else should be thought of, because this current funding doesn't seem too fair to Poland. BTW I heard Poland is or will be 'helping' the Greeks out with several billion? Getting and giving, paying back how much is Poland really getting from this questionable sum?

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,997 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS Jan 31, 12, 17:28 #11
delphiandomine: Anyway, complaining about not getting more free money - whatever next?! that's what I'm saying. it seems like a lot of free money that Germany/France/UK will never get back. From what I understand the UK gets about 1/2 back of what they put in.

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Jan 31, 12, 17:54 #12

FUZZYWICKETS:

that's what I'm saying. it seems like a lot of free money that Germany/France/UK will never get back. From what I understand the UK gets about 1/2 back of what they put in.

The UK does get a rebate though - generally speaking, the UK does fine with it. Germany and the Netherlands get absolutely stuffed though.

PennBoy:

As for Estonia well if per capita isn't overall fair then something else should be thought of, because this current funding doesn't seem too fair to Poland.

It is fair - Poland gets the most. You also have to remember that while coming up with half a billion zloty for a project is easy in Poland - coming up with 100m Euro in Estonia is going to be much, much more difficult for them.

Something else that you've forgotten - those figures won't include the massive social transfers, such as the amount of Poles in the UK claiming UK benefits.

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Edited by: gumishu Jan 31, 12, 18:06 #13

delphiandomine:

It is fair - Poland gets the most. You also have to remember that while coming up with half a billion zloty for a project is easy in Poland - coming up with 100m Euro in Estonia is going to be much, much more difficult for them.

if you want to build a motorway network in Poland and in Estonia are you going to spend the same amount? - or the network of the same density in Poland will cost 10 times more?? -
btw Poland is much more of a transit country than Estonia and so needs the motorways much more
- if you want to achieve the 10 per cent level of electricity coming from wind farms in Poland and in Estonia will you spend the same amount in Poland or in Estonia or will you spend ten times more in Poland than in Estonia? (10 times is just a symbol figure - i don't know the precise surface, population and energy consumptions ratios between Poland and Estonia - it can well be 20 perhaps)

wedontneedyou	Jan 31, 12, 18:23 #14
FUZZYWICKETS: it seems like a lot of "free" money that Germany/France/UK will never get back. You should tell them!!!I am sure they will appreciate opinion of such an expert as you.

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Jan 31, 12, 18:36 #15

wedontneedyou:

FUZZYWICKETS:
it seems like a lot of "free" money that Germany/France/UK will never get back.

You should tell them!!!I am sure they will appreciate opinion of such an expert as you.

in 2006 I have heard Gerd Poetering (then the president of the EuroParliament) saying on German TV political programme how much new EU member countries cost a statistical citizen of the OLD Europe - it was 26 euro yearly - even if it twice as much at the moment this is not a real burden I would think

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Jan 31, 12, 18:37 #16

gumishu:

in 2006 I have heard Gerd Poetering (then the president of the EuroParliament) saying on German TV political programme how much new EU member countries cost a statistical citizen of the OLD Europe - it was 26 euro yearly - even if it twice as much at the moment this is not a real burden I would think

No, it's nothing. Let's say it's 50 euro a year - it's a tiny price to pay for stability in Europe.

wedontneedyou	Jan 31, 12, 18:42 #17
gumishu: in 2006 I have heard Gerd Poetering (then the president of the EuroParliament) saying on German TV political programme how much new EU member countries cost a statistical citizen of the OLD Europe Did he say how much he sucks out of new EU countries?Some of these western punks basically live off Poland e.g Portugal but I am blaming it on "Polish" governments.

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Jan 31, 12, 18:53 #18

delphiandomine:

gumishu:
in 2006 I have heard Gerd Poetering (then the president of the EuroParliament) saying on German TV political programme how much new EU member countries cost a statistical citizen of the OLD Europe - it was 26 euro yearly - even if it twice as much at the moment this is not a real burden I would think

No, it's nothing. Let's say it's 50 euro a year - it's a tiny price to pay for stability in Europe.

what is more a lot of these funds return to old Europe in the form of contracts (German and Austrian companies are very much involved in builidng Polish motorways for example)

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Jan 31, 12, 19:17 #19

delphiandomine:

those figures won't include the massive social transfers, such as the amount of Poles in the UK claiming UK benefits.

it would be really interesting to know how much Polish people get in benefits in Britain - but then it may turn out that these are not massive transfers

I remember hudsonhicks stating from an article that Polish people get about 50 million pounds yearly in benefits for children who they have left in Poland (I believe it to be a fraction of all the benefits Poles in the UK get but this figure is not massive at all if you consider that there can be more than million Poles in the UK)

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Jan 31, 12, 19:23 #20

gumishu:

I remember hudsonhicks stating from an article that Polish people get about 50 million pounds yearly in benefits for children who they have left in Poland (I believe it to be a fraction of all the benefits Poles in the UK get but this figure is not massive at all if you consider that there can be more than million Poles in the UK)

right. Also probably not a massive figure compared to how much the normal hard working Polish people contribute to the UK economy. However without reliable figures, it's all just conjecture.
I have met many Polish people here, with their own businesses or with regular jobs, plus one or two losers on benefits....sadly though it is all anecdotal evidence.

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Jan 31, 12, 19:32 #21

gumishu:

I remember hudsonhicks stating from an article that Polish people get about 50 million pounds yearly in benefits for children who they have left in Poland (I believe it to be a fraction of all the benefits Poles in the UK get but this figure is not massive at all if you consider that there can be more than million Poles in the UK)

20 million. If you want to look at them as a mass Poles in the UK contribute more than they take. Not by much, last year's figure was £5 billion since 2004. I wouldn't go by HudsonthewelshHick. The Welsh are far more costly to Britain, as a mass.

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,997 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 12, 20:37 #22
gumishu: it would be really interesting to know how much Polish people get in benefits in Britain - but then it may turn out that these are not massive transfers it would be more interesting to know how much money is earned by poles in the UK that is never taxed and then transferred to Poland.

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Jan 31, 12, 20:46 #23

gumishu:

I remember hudsonhicks stating from an article that Polish people get about 50 million pounds yearly in benefits for children who they have left in Poland (I believe it to be a fraction of all the benefits Poles in the UK get but this figure is not massive at all if you consider that there can be more than million Poles in the UK)

More importantly, it is also a fraction of the amount the British taxpayer would have to fork out if those children were brought to Britain.

FUZZYWICKETS:

it would be more interesting to know how much money is earned by poles in the UK that is never taxed and then transferred to Poland.

Not much, I'd imagine. The main reason for paying Poles in hand was that they couldn't work legally. Now they can, employers have far less reason to pay them that way.

But we're starting to get away from the stated topic of the thread (unless the thread is actually about fund flows in the EU and I'm reading the title wrong).

wedontneedyou	Jan 31, 12, 20:54 #24
Harry: But we're starting to get away from the stated topic of the thread (unless the thread is actually about fund flows in the EU and I'm reading the title wrong). I disagree,we are actually getting closer to the intended topic of this thread.This thread (like many others) is actually about Poland and Polish people stealing everyone's else money and "cheating" on benefits in the UK.

rant2012Threads: 4 Posts: 19 Joined: Dec 13, 11 ♀	Edited by: rant2012 Jan 31, 12, 21:45 #25
I had a quick look at the ft database.....now thats a topic for a thread...who works for those companies!!

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Jan 31, 12, 22:23 #26

wedontneedyou:

Did he say how much he sucks out of new EU countries?Some of these western punks basically live off Poland e.g Portugal but I am blaming it on "Polish" governments.

Ah, another fool who doesn't know his history.

Here's a question for 10 : who was described as "the sick man of Europe" upon her accession to the EEC? (as it was)

gumishu:

it would be really interesting to know how much Polish people get in benefits in Britain - but then it may turn out that these are not massive transfers

It might be hard to find accurate figures, because the UK has such a mess of a benefits system that there might be no reliable figures.

Interestingly enough - one common complaint about the UK is that it doesn't bend over backwards for pregnant women - doctors refuse to sign them off sick, they don't get all sorts of care on demand, they don't get all sorts of drugs prescribed etc etc.

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Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS Jan 31, 12, 22:31 #27

Harry:

Not much, I'd imagine. The main reason for paying Poles in hand was that they couldn't work legally. Now they can, employers have far less reason to pay them that way.

none the less, the money sent to Poland creates a one way street. The avg. Brit earns money and pumps it right back into the system. if a lot of your country's money is going elsewhere, the economy is taking a hit.

for example:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Polish-people-working-in-Ireland-sent -home-16-billion-last-year-133798773.html

I've been looking for an article I read a few months back, it had the estimated amount sent from the USA to Poland in 2010, I forget the amount. Anyway, the point being a lot of Poles in Poland have that apartment or that car or whatever because of money earned elsewhere. Millions of Poles have benefited from UK and USA money which I think pertains to this topic indirectly.

I'm happy to see Poland on the up and up but we cannot overlook the amount of "overseas earned" money being pumped in by the billions every year. Sure, they're going out there and earning it which is awesome to see, but it's worth mentioning because a lot of Polish people's recent success has been achieved through financial gains outside their borders. Stop money flow to Poland from the USA and the UK and you will see a very different Poland.

Even within my own wife's family, there are great success stories with US dollars to thank for it.

wedontneedyou

Jan 31, 12, 22:46 #28

What kind of s h i t is this?What 16 bilion?Once you open this link it says $7.5 Bilion SINCE 2004.That's roughly 1 (ONE) bilion a year.

FUZZYWICKETS:

Stop money flow to Poland from the USA and the UK and you will see a very different Poland.

Aha.There is so much flowing from US to Poland.Post some numbers not your opinions.

FUZZYWICKETS:

I'm happy to see Poland on the up and up

Of course you are.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 31, 12, 22:51 #29
wedontneedyou: What kind of s h i t is this?What 16 bilion?Once you open this link it says $7.5 Bilion SINCE 2004.That's roughly 1 (ONE) bilion a year. Cheap. 1 billion between 350 million people is peanuts.

WedleThreads: 24 Posts: 786 Joined: Sep 27, 11 ♂	Edited by: Wedle Jan 31, 12, 23:05 #30
FUZZYWICKETS: And I don't think it's just this forum, I don't even think it's Poland. Its the Polish ' adage ' If we keep denying the truth, they won't take it away from us, therefore if we carry on denying the facts are a reality, they may give us more.

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