Are Poles bankrupt?

JaneDoeThreads: 7 Posts: 237 Joined: Sep 26, 08 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 20:23 #1
The real question is not if they are, but how much they are in debt? Poles borrow money from banks or family and friends. The main reason they declare is to survive every day life - 32%, to renovate a house/apartment, to buy a new home appliance etc. or a car. Also: do you think in the future Poland will be in even bigger financial trouble then Greece?

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 20:27 #2
JaneDoe: Also: do you think in the future Poland will be in even bigger financial trouble then Greece? No, Poland hasn't is no way near and actually is outdoing many of the more "economised" countries in Europe. JaneDoe: but how much they are in debt? I doubt very much since Polish banks are very strict with who they lend money or give credit to.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 25, 11, 20:32 #3
JaneDoe: Poles borrow money from banks or family and friends. Statistics? JaneDoe: The main reason they declare is to survive every day life - 32%, to renovate a house/apartment, to buy a new home appliance etc. or a car. Source? JaneDoe: Also: do you think in the future Poland will be in even bigger financial trouble then Greece? Evidence?

JaneDoeThreads: 7 Posts: 237 Joined: Sep 26, 08 ♂	Edited by: JaneDoe Jan 25, 11, 20:34 #4
delphiandomine: Statistics? delphiandomine: Source? Read here (in Polish though) delphiandomine: Evidence? Just a question. What do you think?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 25, 11, 20:37 #5
JaneDoe: Read here (in Polish though) The problem is that such articles ignore the huge black economy here - on paper, someone might be loaded down with debts, but they can easily earn a hell of a lot more on the side. When was the last time anyone ever got a receipt for any sort of repair, for instance?

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 20:38 #6
JaneDoe: Just a question. What do you think? Not a chance. Poland's economy is far too stable at the moment. Though the UK (though not Scotland's) is tittering on recession again gpd of -0.5 for the last quarter of last year.

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 21:07 #7
Ofc they are.These are conseqences of having crooked goverment. dtaylor5632: Poland's economy is far too stable at the moment. Stable my azz. delphiandomine: The problem is that such articles ignore the huge black economy here - on paper, someone might be loaded down with debts, but they can easily earn a hell of a lot more on the side. A problem?Get the hell out of here.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Jan 25, 11, 21:19 #8
JaneDoe: The real question is not if they are, but how much they are in debt? List of sovereign states by public debt In 51st place it's Poland And also List of countries by external debt grubas: Stable my azz. Isn't your azz in a horse stable in America?

hague1cmaeronThreads: 21 Posts: 1,649 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 21:45 #9
dtaylor5632: Though the UK (though not Scotland's) You have got to be kidding right?

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Edited by: BBman Jan 25, 11, 23:05 #10

Debt is quickly on the rise in Poland, but Poles always find a way to make money na czarno.

I've heard a couple of economists on TV (during the greek crisis) say that they think many non-EU countries (Poland was cited as one country) somehow hide/distort their debts. They also said that greece would not have encountered such problems if they didn't have the euro as their national currency. The euro put an end to cheating on debts. If this is true then Poland will sink faster than the titanic if it adopts the euro.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 23:27 #11
BBman: many non-EU countries (Poland was cited as one country) Poland is in the EU. BBman: The euro put an end to cheating on debts. How did it do that?

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Jan 25, 11, 23:28 #12

Problem with the Greece is about to be at the border of EU geography. Hence, they had to spend more on military stffs. A similar thing happened to Turkey during the cold war as Turkey was at the border with Russia Soviets. Economy here was worse than any capitalist Western country. Defending borders when borders exist is done by poors or makes you poor.

Poland is in a similar stiuation, but, before Poland goes bankrupt, there are other countries who can go bankrupt as the new borders are somethings else. Outsiders saying Poland is a strict christian or nationalist country, but, I don't think really so. What I see is something like China of Europe, from the view of real sector unlike the West whose economy is based on financial sector supported by weapon sector. Crisis is in this kind of financial sector, not in real sector that serves daily life, at least, not yet. West Europeans should pray Poland not to go in any crisis. Poles may not pity anyone if such a thing happens.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 23:44 #13
SeanBM: How did it do that? you can no longer devalue your currency to repay debt.

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Jan 26, 11, 02:42 #14

JaneDoe:

The main reason they declare is to survive every day life - 32%,
to renovate a house/apartment, to buy a new home appliance etc. or a car.

Last I heard the average "debt to asset ratio" was close to 50% low by European standards.

JaneDoe:

Also: do you think in the future Poland will be in even bigger financial trouble then Greece?

Poland is a country of 36 Million people and has a huge domestic market. Furthermore Poland bprders Ukraine and Belorussia both in need of technical knowledge and financial now how/strategic partners, then you have Russia. Slavs do business with Slavs, Poland has a very good geographical location to allow east to meet west. I would not be sprized if Warsaw bacame the financial center for central/eastern european trade in the next 10 years.

Chicago PollockThreads: 10 Posts: 638 Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 06:00 #15
convex: you can no longer devalue your currency to repay debt. If you have your own currency you can. Besides the debt was owned by the banks and they made the citizenry assume the debt. The Euro's a big scam.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 07:36 #16
Debt isn't such a big deal as long as it's not too high... If you got debts and your able t pay them... What does that make you? That's right! A guy that can pay for his sh!t

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Edited by: milky Jan 26, 11, 12:33 #17

JanDoe,,Talk to Polish people or live over there, if you want to know what it is like...The guys on here are mainly Brits with alterior motives. If you wanted to know about the Spanish and their economy, would you ask for the opinion of a handful of 'opportunistic Brits' living in Madrid...According to the click, that's strategically, monopolising this site, all is great in Poland and it's getting better etc etc....They are providing dis-information.

The rising costs of food and fuel in Poland and the effects on disposable income/economy

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 26, 11, 12:41 #18
milky: all is great in Poland and it's getting better etc etc All is most certainly is not great in Poland. But it is even more certainly getting better here. Or at least it is for those of us who actually work for a living instead of sending our wives out to work while we sit at home and play at being an internet tycoon.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 14:11 #19
Chicago Pollock: If you have your own currency you can. Besides the debt was owned by the banks and they made the citizenry assume the debt. The Euro's a big scam. Read Sean's comment, then read mine.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,385 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 17:06 #20
Harry: All is most certainly is not great in Poland. After a recent visit to Lviv, things in Poland just got a whole lot better...

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,385 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 17:40 #21
milky: Talk to Polish people or live over there, if you want to know what it is like... Convex, Harry,SeanBM,Wroclaw boy and myself - live in PL on a daily basis. Who has alterior motives? 'Opportunistic Brits' there are certainly easier places to live.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 26, 11, 18:14 #22
warszawski: Who has alterior motives? Cretins who can't spell?

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,470 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Jan 26, 11, 18:23 #23
milky: They are providing dis-information. Ahh stop the world i want to get off.

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Jan 26, 11, 19:12 #24

milky:

If you wanted to know about the Spanish and their economy, would you ask for the opinion of a handful of 'opportunistic Brits' living in Madrid

Harry:

Cretins who can't spell?

Milky, has a fair point above, the expat brigade that sit most nights in English/Irish bars - trying to put PL to rights, when they just about have their own life in order, are not what you class as an authority on PL. They do not immerse themselves in Polish culture and life, they lead a sub culture existence never wanting to be part of the host country.

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Jan 26, 11, 21:02 #25

warszawsk

Milky, has a fair point above, the expat brigade that sit most nights in English/Irish bars - trying to put PL to rights, when they just about have their own life in order, are not what you class as an authority on PL. They do not immerse themselves in Polish culture and life, they lead a sub culture existence never wanting to be part of the host country.

Do not put the same label on all the English here in Poland. Many of us live in areas where there are no English people to speak with or Irish bars. I have many Polish friends and family and we discuss all aspects of life here. Not many English survive or thrive here, it takes a lot of patience and hard work, mentally and physically, especially mentally as there is no logic to anything that goes on.

LenkaThreads: - Posts: 236 Joined: Nov 17, 09 ♀	Jan 26, 11, 22:11 #26
I'm absolutely Polish and I also think that although Polish economy has some problems it's far from bankruptcy .

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Edited by: jwojcie Jan 27, 11, 01:04 #27

Well, it is true that opinions on this forums are mostly not made by Poles but regarding this question:
"Are Poles bancrupt?"

As Pole living in Poland: in general No... But what is really your question about? Because we can look at this from many angles....

Let start with that it is really hard for a Pole to actually bancrupt from the law point of view. The concept of individual bankruptcy was implemented in Polish law a few years ago but with very strict rules. So, no, you will not bancrupt as an individual in Poland. You will sooner sell your house (or rewrite it onto your spouse ;-)) than bancrupt.

From statistical perspective Poles are behind most of western levels of debt but we are catching up unfortunately. Anyway, look for statistits at WB or IMF, judge yourself. But be warned: it is recurrencing error made by people from the west, especially by people from hugely indebted societies to make false analogies. I saw it many times in recent years, the main star was a level of FX mortgages in Poland. During the peak of the crisis I've read many times when some (want to be) economists ruled that Poland is f..ked because of huge % of FX mortgages... But rarely someone was decent enough to check that mortgage market in Poland was relatively small in comparision to GDP. They just assumed that it is similar to USA or UK..

milkyThreads: 10 Posts: 1,224 Joined: Oct 26, 09 ♀	Jan 27, 11, 01:53 #28
warszawski: Who has ulterior motives? Fair point, not 'EVERYONE' . Has ulterior(thanks Harry) motives.

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Jan 27, 11, 10:18 #29

Avalon:

Do not put the same label on all the English here in Poland. Many of us live in areas where there are no English people to speak with or Irish bars.

Exactly, there are those that integrate and those that don't, the latter get the first a bad reputation.

Avalon:

Not many English survive or thrive here, it takes a lot of patience and hard work, mentally and physically, especially mentally as there is no logic to anything that goes on.

A change is as good as a rest...
I have mentioned before on this forum I am happy with my life in PL, my wife is Polish so things are made a bit easier for me, over someone that does not have a Polish spouse.

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Jan 27, 11, 10:46 #30

in short YES

most poles have huge 30 and 40year mortgages, every store gives people a credit line, because you really do need a 50" plasma tv.........

Poles are super naive imo, this capitalism thing is still pretty new to them, and millions are in debt as we speak

But overall attitude of the government is that somehow Pl is an "economic island", somehow they figure that those billions of dollars they borrowed from the world bank etc is gonna dissapear.

Then you have the polish big business which is almost entirely foreign owned. Not sure how many big businesses are still Polish but it's a small fraction...and whatever is still in public hands is in debt, ex. Telekomunikacja Polska

we're just waiting for the **** to hit the fan...

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