Is this what is about right when registering a business in Poland?

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Oct 15, 11, 09:20 #1

I've just registered as a sole trader after my Polish son-in-law-to-be and I spent a day traipsing around the town and found the process boring, but not too painful. I can see now that the 'One Window' system must be so much more simpler that a year or so ago.

First we went to see the very helpful Jednoosobowa Dzialalnosc Gospodarcza lady, who was not only friendly, but wasn't phased at all by my foreignness. I found this quite a relief, given that we are in a town in Opolskie, not a major city. She gave me a 'Ewidencij' document, explained what we need to do next (ZUS) and that I would receive more paperwork in the mail.

Score 9.5/10

Then we went to the Urzad skarbowy and that wasn't fun. Massive room with very little in it. Three women who appeared to have as much disdain for each other as their clients and a form that one of them partially ticked for us, but some of her choices seem contradictory. No problem as it will be sorted out with the accountant next week. In and out in under ten minutes which wasn't bad.

Score 6/10 (mainly because they were so dour)

ZUS. That was surreal. We popped in to see if we could get any information booklets - which you can - admittedly it was at 14:45 which I can't help but feel to be a normal part of the working day and the place was deserted apart from one guy. He was helpful... after the obligatory 'phhhhh' noise that all public servants make when asked a question, but ended up giving us the phone number of a nameless colleague who knows all about foreigners, on a post-it note.

Score 8/10 9helped by the comedic value of the guy we spoke to)

Overall it wasn't as difficult as I had been lead to believe, but I'll feel better once I have my REGON and the ZUS stuff is out the way.

How does this compare to other's experiences recently?

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 19, 11, 14:48 #2
Got my NIP today, that = three business days!!!! I was told it would take weeks

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Oct 19, 11, 16:53 #3

I came in 2004. I applied for my tax number in November of that year.

In December I was informed that my application had been sent to the wrong office (Warsaw I) and had been POSTED to the correct office (Warsaw II), which is the floor upstairs in the same building.

In February 2005 Warsaw II tells me that my application has been sent to the wrong office, and had been posted to the correct office (Warsaw I).

In March 2005 I moved flat and asked Warsaw I when my number would be ready. "What number?" they said. "You're in Warsaw II". I showed them the two letters. "Well, we haven't got it."

In April 2005 I submitted a new application in Warsaw-Wola, and got my tax number confirmed by phone the next day. I went to Warsaw I to tell them that I was cancelling my application. I got a stamped note confirming this.

In August 2005 I got a letter from Warsaw I informing me that I was under investigation for fraud for operating under two tax numbers. I submitted my copies of their letters and my cancellation of the initial application, and got some women very angry in that office.

That's just one example. It took another seven months to get my PESEL/meldunek, a similar time to get my original Karta Pobytu. Things have certainly changed a lot since the early EU days...

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Oct 19, 11, 22:12 #4

Richfilth

Bloody hell. That was along the lines of what I expected. The woman from Urząd Skarbowy even telephoned yesterday and said "Congratulation on the commencement of your new business".

If it makes you feel better, I lived in France a few years ago and had a similar experience. In Polish terms I was incorrectly issued two REGON/NIP ID cards. One had the correct NIP but the wrong REGON, while the other the wrong NIP/correct REGON (so to speak). Seven times I tried visited the local office/ wrote letters etc. The woman at the local office kept apologising and tearing up the nasty letters and telling me everything would be sorted. Before leaving I paid all dues in full according to the card with the correct NIP along with a explanatory letter from my accountant and photocopies of all correspondence/both cards. I received a letter telling me that I had no outstanding obligations.

Friends in France tell me that the authorities still visit occasionally to interview me.

The thing that both countries have in common is that a qualification is necessary to become a public servant, or I believe that to be the case. At least the Polish authorities have have made progress.

RichfilthThreads: 8 Posts: 327 Joined: Mar 8, 09 ♂	Oct 19, 11, 23:18 #5
There are some departments that are still woefully ignorant of the changing times. Upon presentation of my British passport at the Immigration Office last year, I was asked where my visa stamp was...

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 19, 11, 23:22 #6
Oh dear. That reminds me of a French policeman arguing with a friend a few years ago that the UK was not in the EU. I think he was getting it confused with the Euro. Maybe your immigration person was in the same boat.

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 21, 11, 19:54 #7
Is this accountant at it with their monthly charges? It sounds a bit steep to me, especially when they know I only have one employee at the moment. Suggested net price for the main services a) 50 documents (bookkeeping) - 400 PLN* b) 10 UE transactions – 100 PLN Total net price (bookkeeping): 500 PLN c) 10 employees (payroll+HR) – 575 PLN Total net price (HR+payroll): 575 PLN

RichfilthThreads: 8 Posts: 327 Joined: Mar 8, 09 ♂	Oct 21, 11, 20:01 #8
Yeah, that is a lot. Sounds like you've contacted a proper accounting firm where the directer has a BMW X5 and employs a team of young women for 1500 a month to do all the calculations. Find yourself a small 1- or 2-person accounting practice, and they'll charge you half that much.

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 21, 11, 20:34 #9
Thanks for that. I thought so, as it's more than I've been charged in the UK, almost double in fact. It's one thing I've never got my head around here: wages for many people are lower, houses are cheaper, there isn't the onerous UK style business rates regime. But, services are frequently quite expensive and business property rental is high. Hmm.

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 24, 11, 22:45 #10
REGON arrived today. Bloody hell, allowing for the mail delivery, that's only about three or four business days, it's like lightening!

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Oct 24, 11, 22:51 #11

magpie:

Is this accountant at it with their monthly charges? It sounds a bit steep to me, especially when they know I only have one employee at the moment.

Far too high - I pay 100zl+VAT for 50 invoices going through a month. That includes paperwork for employees/etc.

magpie:

Total net price (HR+payroll): 575 PLN

Way over the top. I know a business that's putting through around 150 invoices a month for some serious cash (and non-EU too - all transactions in CHF) and they're paying 400PLN a month. That includes the paperwork for the employees and so on.

magpie:

But, services are frequently quite expensive

There's much more disparity in the price of services, I think.

I had the same nonsense when finding an accountant - quotes of 300/400 from ones in the city, but my little osiedle-based accountant charged 100+VAT for absolutely spot on service. I could visit her anytime, ask questions, etc - all in the price. Anyone trying to charge more for invoices issued to clients outside Poland is frankly having a laugh - it's a piece of **** for them to deal with.

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Oct 24, 11, 23:04 #12

magpie:

But, services are frequently quite expensive and business property rental is high. Hmm.

services are expensive because there is limited access to many professions (including real estate agents) - prices are also high because there are plenty people who have money but have no idea how to employ them in industries - they are just leeches who managed to put their hands on property(think it is was not always a lawful process) - but I believe the prices of properties and rentals will drop in not so distant perspective

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Dec 21, 11, 12:29 #13

Follow on question:

The son-in-law will become an employee after Christmas and has just been asked by my accountant to bring his qualification papers into her office, and "BTW what are they?" When he told her he has a MA in culture, she went on about how it's not connected with what he is doing for me, "If there is a government inspection there might be an issue, but it should be OK as you are in a small company."

I can't get hold of her until after christmas. In the meantime, does anyone know what the f'ck she's banging on about? Inspection? An accountant requesting copies of employee qualification? What does it have to do with her, or the state?

Is this crap normal in non-licensed occupations?

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Edited by: JonnyM Dec 21, 11, 13:12 #14

magpie:

Is this crap normal in non-licensed occupations?

Misleading. If your son-in-law has an umowa pracy you should keep a personnel file in a specific format, including copies of qualifications, (assuming a particular qualification is necessary to do the job) medical tests, leave records etc. If he has a different type of umowa, you don't. This however has nothing to do with your bookkeeper (who by the way is almost certainly not an accountant - Polish bookkeepers have a habit of describing themselves as such). Keeping such records is not the responsibility of the bookkeeper. I would find another. Quickly.

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Dec 21, 11, 20:01 #15

JonnyM:

assuming a particular qualification is necessary to do the job

That's the thing Johnny, he has a degree in culture (sort of limiting his employment options, but he's as smart as a shithouse rat, which is why I want him to work for me) and my business is connected with manufacturing products for the building industry, so no connection but none needed.

I agree with you that yes 'HR' records are between me and him, so I'm not sure if she want to generate more work or is obsessed with 'they' and wants to make sure that she can't get into trouble. The Mrs told me that her aunt is an accountant and had been under communism too, which was modified to 'bookkeeper' after I highlighted the "under communism" bit. The trouble is that the 'accountant' is a very close friend of the family and helps me as she speaks great English, so I'll need to wait a bit then look around I think.

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Dec 21, 11, 23:48 #16

magpie:

The son-in-law will become an employee after Christmas and has just been asked by my accountant to bring his qualification papers into her office, and "BTW what are they?" When he told her he has a MA in culture, she went on about how it's not connected with what he is doing for me, "If there is a government inspection there might be an issue, but it should be OK as you are in a small company."

What utter crap - find a new accountant sharpish. I've never heard something so absolutely ridiculous - while there are some professions that can be practiced only by people suitably qualified, it's probably unlikely that you're hiring him to do such a thing.

magpie:

I can't get hold of her until after christmas. In the meantime, does anyone know what the f'ck she's banging on about? Inspection? An accountant requesting copies of employee qualification? What does it have to do with her, or the state?

Nothing. There are some records you should keep, but these are nothing to do with the accountant. The only time she should intervene is if you're attempting to give a certain type of contract illegally.

magpie:

I agree with you that yes 'HR' records are between me and him, so I'm not sure if she want to generate more work or is obsessed with 'they' and wants to make sure that she can't get into trouble. The Mrs told me that her aunt is an accountant and had been under communism too, which was modified to 'bookkeeper' after I highlighted the "under communism" bit. The trouble is that the 'accountant' is a very close friend of the family and helps me as she speaks great English, so I'll need to wait a bit then look around I think.

I'd look at making a break now if you can - family friends are more trouble than they're worth.

I see what you're saying, but if she's feeding you rubbish advice like this, what is she doing with your records?

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Dec 27, 11, 19:19 #17

Well, time to give her a little bit of credit, as she has arranged to do my employees personal taxes, something I wasn't aware of. Apparently for every year a person spends at university, it equates to some% of one years working, in reference to pensions etc.

As the son in law has just finished a five year MA, she wants to get him any pension etc entitlements he's entitled too. This is why she wanted evidence of qualification.

It still doesn't explain her comment about 'if they do an inspection' but I guess I'll work that one out too eventually.

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Dec 31, 11, 14:23 #18

Anyone heard of an elevator operators license?

We are about to rent first floor workshop space (2nd floor for Americans) in a two story 1960s concrete building and asked about the lift - which appears in perfectly good condition - and were told that one of the landlord's staff will need to operate it as there is a mandate if you are caught (presumably at an inquest) having operated it without the 'training certificate' which BTW costs 600zl.

Has anyone heard of this before?

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Jan 1, 12, 14:10 #19

magpie:

We are about to rent first floor workshop space (2nd floor for Americans) in a two story 1960s concrete building and asked about the lift - which appears in perfectly good condition - and were told that one of the landlord's staff will need to operate it as there is a mandate if you are caught (presumably at an inquest) having operated it without the 'training certificate' which BTW costs 600zl.

Hahahahaha. That's utter rubbish - and probably the classic "oo, foreigner, let's treat him like a mug" line.

Tell them you'll supply your own trained member of staff - problem solved.

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