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Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland

Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 11:53am  #

BLS:
I must have learned this response somewhere. I hypothesize that I learned it from other passersby when I was inconsiderate or acted the fool during my youth.

I know I learned some lessons that way; )

To be completely honest though, I do very similar things, I will avoid getting out of someone's way to the extent they attempt not to get in my way. After watching enough videos on Russian drivers, I'm wondering if there isn't something going on with peripheral vision among Slavic people.

On a somewhat contradictory and related point: one of my colleagues told me he's asked a few of the co-workers in his department if they are self-observant/self-critical. They laughed at the idea that anyone would even question one's own actions.
It would explain the "my sh*t don't stink" attitude I've seen among a segment of the population where I live. There's a combination of things at play with different people but this is all a digression.

Suffice to say, the approach towards conducting oneself in public seems to be different here in many ways and that's just how it is.

jon357 Threads: 29
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 12:03pm  #

On another (excellent) forum that doesn't seem to exist now, a lady from Britain who's a long time resident here used to describe this as 'lack of special acuity'. Basically sailing out of shop doors not caring if there are people walking on the pavement. I also notice that crowds in the city centre don't seem to take into account other people and just expect them to get out of the way. Leon Uris who was American remarked how well crowds in London worked, so perhaps it's just the Brits who are very good at instinctively cooperating. That or the two nations are at extreme ends of a continuum.

Lenka Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 12:50pm  #

BLS:
The look on her face was priceless - she was so upset that I didn't move out of her way. To be honest, I don't think she even saw me before "I" ran into "her."

BLS:
One of my students told me that she considered my behavior to be more rude than the young woman's at the train station.

I find your behaviour more rude as well. You said yourself- you don't even think she noticed you- you on the other hand deliberately run into her.

jon357 Threads: 29
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Joined: Mar 15, 2012
  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 01:27pm  #

I see what you mean however it raises another question, namely the etiquette of mobile phone use. Especially in public places.

Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 01:28pm  #

Lenka:
I find your behaviour more rude as well. You said yourself- you don't even think she noticed you- you on the other hand deliberately run into her.

You see that's where some people don't see it that way. The idea being that if one cannot look to see where one is going then don't cry foul when people don't step out of your way. This applies to driving as well.

Lenka Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 01:35pm  #

jon357:
the etiquette of mobile phone use. Especially in public places.

True, that's still new area and ppl usually don't even think about it.

Foreigner4:
You see that's where some people don't see it that way. The idea being that if one cannot look to see where one is going then don't cry foul when people don't step out of your way. This applies to driving as well.

Ok, but that doesn't change the rudness factor- the fact that you are right doesn't mean you don't act like an....at the same time.

Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 01:43pm  #

Lenka:
Ok, but that doesn't change the rudness factor

Of course it does darling. Of course it does.
If it doesn't change one's perception of that factor then one doesn't really understand the principal behind his actions.
Once one is able to do that then it becomes hard to say he was rude. On the contrary; he may have provided her with a timely reminder on keeping her head up.
Just think, if it wasn't for him she might have careened off the platform, splayed onto the tracks with blood trickling from horrible head wound. All that was averted thanks to his diligent observance.
You should be applauding him for saving her life!

Lenka Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 01:46pm  #

Foreigner4:
Of course it does darling. Of course it does.
If it doesn't change one's perception of that factor then one doesn't really understand the principal behind his actions.
Once one is able to do that then it becomes hard to say he was rude. On the contrary; he may have provided her with a timely reminder on keeping her head up.
Just think, if it wasn't for him she might have careened off the platform, splayed onto the tracks with blood trickling from horrible head wound. All that was averted thanks to his diligent observance.
You should be applauding him for saving her life!

lol, then maybe we will agree he just wanted the excuse to touch her body? As good excuse as any :)

Ironside Threads: 56
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  ♂  :-( Jun 17, 2013, 02:03pm  #

Lenka:
I find your behaviour more rude as well. You said yourself- you don't even think she noticed you- you on the other hand deliberately run into her.

More rude? Hardly, I would say that it was justified rudeness on his part.
Although I must say that there is something wrong with some people who are just walking in the crowd as if they were alone.
It is about manners and social awareness methinks..

BLS Threads: 83
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 03:01pm  #

Lenka:
you don't even think she noticed you

I think this is the larger issue - she didn't bother to notice anyone else. HER needs were more important than everyone else's, and that is not conducive to a functional society. I was fully aware of my surroundings, but she was not. If she would bump into a few more people, perhaps she'd get her head out of her ars and learn to follow the social contract we all inherently agree to when living in a metropolitan society.

Lenka:
Ok, but that doesn't change the rudness factor- the fact that you are right doesn't mean you don't act like an....at the same time.

How else is this person going to learn without some sort of "intervention" from others? She obviously hadn't learned how to be a responsible member of society, so I chose to be proactive rather than reactive. My intent was (and is) to improve society for the long term - if you focus only on the short-term consequences, you're missing the point entirely.

jon357 Threads: 29
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  ♂   Edited by: jon357  Jun 17, 2013, 03:07pm  #

I remember being on a bus, the bottom end of Pulawska going towards Piaseczno. The bus was jammed full to bursting. A youngish woman whose seat I was squashed against said several times in Polish (in one of those annoying reedy voices) "Excuse me, this is a seat for one person". When I reminded her that the bus was jammed full of people, she just repeated it. As if her needs were more important that those of the whole group who were travelling.

The amusing thing is that later on when the bus was less full, the inspectors got on and it turned out she was riding the bus without a ticket. Antisocial, or what?

I also notice on buses or trams people running, literally running, in order to get to a vacant seat before someone much nearer has a chance to sit - sometimes almost doing gymnastics to slide under them. Very strange. Poland isn't unique for this - I've seen it in various places in Eastern Europe but nowhere else.

BLS Threads: 83
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 03:44pm  #

jon357:
A youngish woman whose seat I was squashed against said several times in Polish (in one of those annoying reedy voices) "Excuse me, this is a seat for one person".

This seems to be happening with young people, so I don't believe Communism is the culprit (indirectly, perhaps, but not directly). Certainly a 20-something female isn't going to remember the rigors of competing for the last loaf of bread. Perhaps they learned how to act in public by observing their parents - I don't know.

jon357:
Antisocial, or what?

Abso-freakin-lutely!

jon357:
I also notice on buses or trams people running, literally running, in order to get to a vacant seat before someone much nearer has a chance to sit

I saw this in its full glory in Vilnius. Upon returning to Krakow, I felt like I was in San Francisco by comparison!

jon357 Threads: 29
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  ♂   Edited by: jon357  Jun 17, 2013, 03:49pm  #

Kraków has a bit more in common with Central Europe - perhaps because it was in the Austrian zabór. There's a certain gentility there which is lacking in the parts that are more clearly Eastern European.

Ironside Threads: 56
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  ♂  :-( Jun 17, 2013, 04:33pm  #

jon357:
Kraków has a bit more in common with Central Europe - perhaps because it was in the Austrian zabór. There's a certain gentility there which is lacking in the parts that are more clearly Eastern European.

Maybe because it is a one of the Polish cities that remained relatively intact after the trails of the WWII.
BLS:
This seems to be happening with young people, so I don't believe Communism is the culprit (indirectly, perhaps, but not directly). Certainly a 20-something female isn't going to remember the rigors of competing for the last loaf of bread. Perhaps they learned how to act in public by observing their parents - I don't know.

Maybe it has something to do with the last 20 years or so, not only Soviet occupation is to blame.

jon357 Threads: 29
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 06:53pm  #

It's a little more complex than that. As I said earlier, the same behaviour was observed back in the thirties.

Magdalena Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 07:13pm  #

OMG. If you're so unhappy about it, just make all those nasty Polish people sit on the naughty step or whatever. As if everyone else was perfect.

jon357 Threads: 29
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  ♂   Edited by: jon357  Jun 17, 2013, 07:28pm  #

So people who live here can't make observations now? Perhaps you want us to apply for permission from the Sejm before speaking. Why not have a look at fora for Poles who've moved to the UK (which of course you are yourself) and tell them they shouldn't comment on what they see around them.

Mind you, your snippily defensive post does rather confirm some of what has been said here.....

BLS Threads: 83
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 07:32pm  #

Magdalena:
If you're so unhappy about it, just make all those nasty Polish people sit on the naughty step or whatever.

Why so sensitive about this discussion, Magdalena? Do you actually like when people jump ahead of you in queues or bump into you on the street? We are not unhappy about it - it's a simple discussion about our experiences in this country. Like most people in this thread, I am able to think in shades of gray - however, your interpretation of our discussion seems to be a bit too black and white for my tastes.

Of course people aren't perfect elsewhere, but we live in Poland - thus, the discussion about our experiences with Polish people. If you want to start a thread about petty Westerners in your country, go right ahead - I for one will not be offended by your generalizations nor will I assume every Pole feels exactly like you do. And I certainly won't interpret a few negative words as overt hatred and disgust towards foreigners.

Magdalena Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 08:17pm  #

I'm not sensitive about it - I'm bored and irritated. It's not over a few words either - you're well into your second page of what is basically whining. I've lived in London for approx. 5 years so I think I can safely say that Polish street and shop behaviour is neither better nor worse than the world average (London being so cosmopolitan, you see). I've been bumped, squished in buses, jumped ahead of in queues just as much in Poland as abroad - that is to say, not that much, definitely not often enough to spend my days discussing it on internet forums.

newpip Threads: -
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 08:27pm  #

once you get outside of London behaviour changes. In Poland it is all over the country.

Lenka Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 08:35pm  #

But what if that's the way we like it? I would much rather make a room for some girl walking than crush into her. I, more than once, walked the streets with a book in front of my face- noone pushed me and now I feel I was just lucky I haven't met PFers :)

Magdalena Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 08:40pm  #

newpip:
once you get outside of London behaviour changes.


defensive much?

jon357 Threads: 29
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 09:13pm  #

Magdalena, why not go on a forum for Poles in the UK and tell them they're whining when they talk about what they see around them?

Mind you, whining is far from unknown here in PL...

newpip Threads: -
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  ♀   Edited by: Moderator  Jun 17, 2013, 09:20pm  #

Magdalena:
newpip: once you get outside of London behaviour changes.

defensive much?


no, I am not English....just my grandparents were. My point is this is to be expected in a diverse city such as London. As soon as you are outside of London people are friendly and polite whereas in Poland people are bloody rude from north to south and east to west.

How many times do you have to be reminded about blanket statements? Lenka

Magdalena Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 09:37pm  #

Foreigner4:
Poles, or at least a good many of them, seem to genuinely thrive on creating as much disorder and disarray as possible within any and all situations.

BLS:
If Poles won't or can't, perhaps we outsiders can provide a valuable service to society by standing our ground in such cases mentioned in this thread.

Foreigner4:
really unfit people for a healthy society imo.

Foreigner4:

From a societal and psychological perspective, I find the phenomenon fascinating from a perspective of "How-much-dysfunction can a society tolerate?"


I find these and similar comments patronising, to say the least.

Has it ever occurred to you that it is you who are the outsiders and maybe don't get to see the full picture, don't know the unspoken rules of conduct? A little humility would go a long way. There are genuinely rude people everywhere. But thinking you know it all and are the best judges of a different society and its norms - that's not nice at all. You chose to live in Poland, deal with it. That's exactly what I hear if I say anything remotely negative about the UK, BTW.

Ant63 Threads: 12
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 09:44pm  #

Magdalena:
I've lived in London for approx.


The English have left you see

newpip:
in Poland people are bloody rude from north to south and east to west.

How many times do you have to be reminded about blanket statements? Lenka


It does appear to be the consensus of opinion and its not explicit enough to be a blanket statement unless you want it to be of course. Just sayin.

newpip Threads: -
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  ♀   Edited by: newpip  Jun 17, 2013, 09:55pm  #

newpip:
whereas in Poland people are bloody rude from north to south and east to west.

How many times do you have to be reminded about blanket statements? Lenka



how do you get a blanket statement out of that?

and quite comical actually, that there can be 6 pages of anti jewish posts with no mod's warning but I write something about Poles being rude and I get a slap on the wrist. Perhaps it is time you should be a little less subjective with your "moderating".

bledi_nowysacz Threads: 2
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Joined: Feb 8, 2013
  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 10:00pm  #

Maybe it's about people's origin ?
To me Poland seems MUCH more in order than my country(Albania) and my wife points that out everytime we go there :D :D. The only thing that bothers me is the scratches at my car sometimes when are matches and the big bald guys pass by,but that's nothing to not finding the car at all which could very easily happen in my country. Now for british,german,french or dutch I think it looks more "eastern" and I guess it's normal considering the countries they come from.

Lenka Threads: 3
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Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  ♀   Jun 17, 2013, 10:02pm  #

Pip- it's not the first time and you know it. Telling all Poles are rude ispure blanket statement. You can argue but it has nothing to do with the fact you talk about Poles- I did warn others as well. If you didn't see it it's not my fault

Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Jun 17, 2013, 10:02pm  #

Magdalena:
I find these and similar comments patronising, to say the least.

You go ahead and do that but I doubt you'd find them patronizing if you heard other Poles say these same things. You really think other Poles are that oblivious to such people?
Magdalena:
Has it ever occurred to you that it is you who are the outsiders and maybe don't get to see the full picture, don't know the unspoken rules of conduct?

Likewise I could ask if it's ever occurred to you that is precisely what I am curious about?
I beg of you to be objective. If you carefully read my posts you'll see a very deliberate use of the word "seem" or "appear." The point of using that language was to make it clear that I am trying to provide the benefit of the doubt.
If it's unclear in my posts then let me assure you I'm still holding out hope that I will understand the reasons for what I perceive to be a lack of courtesy and consideration that seems to be come out in odd and unexpected ways here among some segments of the population.

If you don't know what I'm talking about then I'll give you an example and you can educate all the foreigners on how they're interpreting things incorrectly...that's a far cry better than posting quotes out of context and getting your feathers ruffled for no real reason.



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Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland

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