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Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best?

pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Apr 7, 2012, 07:28pm  #

BBman:

1. Encourage Poles who left Poland to return.
2. Bring people in from eastern europe.
3. As a last resort, allow Orientals to immigrate to Poland in small numbers. This will require a tough assimilation/integration programme to go along with this change in demographics, I don;t think Poland needs to repeat the mistakes of western europe.


This sounds like a piece of good advice.

pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Apr 7, 2012, 07:42pm  #

BBman:
2. Bring people in from eastern europe.


Do you know there are still many people of Polish origin in Eastern countries?

Ukrainian students
s

Belarussian kids
s
PennBoy Threads: 148
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  ♂   Edited by: PennBoy  Apr 7, 2012, 08:25pm  #

pawian:
Do you know there are still many people of Polish origin in Eastern countries?

Ukrainian students

I see.. Goncharova..Oleshko..Zmiyevsha..Davidenko....
I know there are many people of Polish ancestry in the east but these people are probably not them.
Ukrainian students who are gonna study in Poland. http://www.studyinpoland.pl/konsorcjum/index.php?option=com_content&vi ew=article&id=489:prezentacje-polskich-uczelni-na-wschodniej-ukrainie& catid=88:newsletter-042010&Itemid=100061
SeanBM Threads: 42
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  ♂   Apr 7, 2012, 10:55pm  #

RevokeNice:
Culture and education only goes so far, its genetics which shape us.

In what way do genetics which "shape us", in your opinion?
Trevek Threads: 31
Posts: 2,195
Joined: May 21, 2008
  ♂   Edited by: Trevek  Apr 7, 2012, 11:16pm  #

Szenk88HTAFC:
Poland does not need immigrants. Politicians need to encourage families to have more children, rather than flood one of the last ethnically pure countries in Europe and turn it into another Britain/France/Germany.

Multiculturalism doesn't work.


Funny, in 17th and 18th century, Poland was doing pretty well from Scottish and Dutch immigrants, as well as being pretty multicultural in itself. Multiculturalism as a reality works... as a political policy, perhaps not so much.

TheOther:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't both the orthodox and protestant church (or their church services, respectively) made illegal in Poland-Lithuania and Poland during certain time periods?


Well during the counter reformation Poland refused to play and a lot of protestants came to Poland to escape persecution.
RevokeNice Threads: 23
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  ♂   Apr 8, 2012, 03:33am  #

SeanBM:
In what way do genetics which "shape us", in your opinion?


Hello Sean,

I trust all is well and wish you a happy easter and hope you are sporting your easter lily with pride. I also hope that you enjoyed Dublin and Shamrock Rovers' recent successes, even from exile. Its been a while, which makes these victories that much sweeter.

Anyway, no doubt you will stuff yourself with choc and have a great day. Back to the point at hand.

Genetics and chemistry predispose us towards certain ways of acting and thinking. The majority of us, for sure, but there are exceptions the rule. Take africans and the MAO-A gene (aka the warrior gene). There is a reason why they are, on a per capita basis, more susceptible to violence and committing acts of rape compared to their western counterparts. We dont posses this gene. Its part of their genetics. It may also answer the question as to why us Irish and the Norwegians always occupy the top five spots when it come to alcohol consumption on a per capita basis. We share similar genes.

Now, before you go off on one of all your we all human rants, which I agree with. We humans also share 96% of our genes, with apes. There is but a 4% difference. Minimal, but extremely important. We are only a bite of hunger away from the animals. "Wasicm" is ingrained in us all. The inclination to tribe up is ingrained in us all. For example, a true Dub down and out approached me "for a spare euro, bud". I gave him a twenty euro bill and told him to have a good night. He could buy a "q" of heroin with that. Waste of cash on my part. But if he had accent, I would have walked on by. A cup of tea or coffee would be the best he would get from me.

I would suggest you read some of biologist Wilsons work.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/04/01/biologist-e-o-wilson- on-why-humans-like-ants-need-a-tribe.html


For example,


The Study:
The elementary drive to form and take deep pleasure from in-group membership easily translates at a higher level into tribalism. People are prone to ethnocentrism. It is an uncomfortable fact that even when given a guilt-free choice, individuals prefer the company of others of the same race, nation, clan, and religion. They trust them more, relax with them better in business and social events, and prefer them more often than not as marriage partners. They are quicker to anger at evidence that an out-group is behaving unfairly or receiving undeserved rewards. And they grow hostile to any out-group encroaching upon the territory or resources of their in-group.
Our bloody nature, it can now be argued in the context of modern biology, is ingrained because group-versus-group was a principal driving force that made us what we are. In prehistory, group selection lifted the hominids to heights of solidarity, to genius, to enterprise.

PlasticPole Threads: 9
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  ♀   Apr 8, 2012, 04:25am  #

It could also sink the hominids into decline, then extinction.
PennBoy Threads: 148
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  ♂   Edited by: PennBoy  Apr 9, 2012, 12:11am  #

pawian:
Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best?

Dr. Artur Bodnar from the Helsinki Human Rights Foundation
'We should be more open towards immigrants in our own interests, because we started out with workers and people who, in our aging society would pay taxes to support pensions and other social goals. It is for our benefit that Poland is a country where it is easy for immigrants to assimilate into our society, fit into our culture, learn the language, and not establish and live in minority ghettos. There are also many of such, for example, from the former Soviet Union, who are eager and willing to move to Poland and live here. This also applies to the Vietnamese and Chinese, who somehow are able to find their place in our fairly homogeneous social structure.' http://www.przeglad-tygodnik.pl/pl/artykul/czy-polska-powinna-sie-otwo rzyc-na-imigrantow
SeanBM Threads: 42
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  ♂   Edited by: SeanBM  Apr 9, 2012, 11:06pm  #

RevokeNice: Take africans and the MAO-A gene (aka the warrior gene). There is a reason why they are, on a per capita basis, more susceptible to violence and committing acts of rape compared to their western counterparts. We dont posses this gene. Its part of their genetics.

That's strange, I am just back from Africa and I wasn't violently attacked or raped, which is strange because I have been in a fair few scraps in Ireland but again never raped.

I think you search for things to back up your ideas, easy to do on the internet, you could have come up with something a bit better than the "daily beast" but I'll look into it.

We could go down the nature/nurture road but I don't see the point, as it is clear you have made up your mind totally ignoring history.

I'm not a geneticist but it strikes me as odd that a "violent gene" does not exist in Europeans (that's what you said) after all the bloody wars, with the usual raping a pillaging, Atomic bombs, death camps, chemical and biological warfare etc... I am certainly not saying that we are any different to everyone else. If I was to push the boat out a little, it's odd that "Approximately 9/10 serial killers are white males between the ages of 20 and 35" but again I wouldn't trust how many, for example, China would admit to having.

RevokeNice: a true Dub down and out approached me "for a spare euro, bud". I gave him a twenty euro bill and told him to have a good night. He could buy a "q" of heroin with that. Waste of cash on my part. But if he had accent, I would have walked on by. A cup of tea or coffee would be the best he would get from me.

I am not sure about the "moral" of your story, it's better to give one of your own smack than someone from outside your tribe but it's better to give someone outside your tribe a cup of tea?

If you are trying to say that people have a natural predisposition to look after their own, I whole heartedly agree, then we are just left discussing who are "our own".

Personally I think that nationality is pulling the wool over our eyes, multinational corporations, governments in their bid for globalization is more about stealing money, land and ideas, from people who are too preoccupied with the guy from the next village than to bother with what has happened..
Like you, for a great example, you go on about how multiculturalism is the greatest evil ever, about how it is costing the average Irishman, it's only a drop in the ocean of what Berita and the bankers have done to "their own". And I very much doubt the other party would have done any better, don't you?

So your comments about race/accent/other tribes/immigrants needed by Poland fall short.
RevokeNice Threads: 23
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 02:00am  #

SeanBM:
That's strange, I am just back from Africa and I wasn't violently attacked or raped, which is strange because I have been in a fair few scraps in Ireland but again never raped.


You visited Africa and lived and were brought up in Ireland for decades. Not a very valid comparison.

SeanBM:
I think you search for things to back up your ideas, easy to do on the internet, you could have come up with something a bit better than the "daily beast" but I'll look into it.


You are as well able to walk to a library or to use google, as I am.

SeanBM:
I'm not a geneticist but it strikes me as odd that a "violent gene" does not exist in Europeans (that's what you said) after all the bloody wars, with the usual raping a pillaging, Atomic bombs, death camps, chemical and biological warfare etc..


American black males are twice as likely than American white males to have MAOA-L which has been linked to crime, violence and aggression in scores of studies going back over fifteen years. Black males are also 13.5 times more likely to have a rare version of the gene associated with “extreme violence and extreme aggression.” Latinos and American Indians are also nearly twice as likely as whites to have the more common version of the gene. However they are only about one fourth as likely to have the extreme version compared to blacks.



http://cofcc.org/2010/05/science-daily-whites-have-lowest-instance-of- maoa-l-gene-which-is-linked-to-aggression-violence-crime-and-sexual-ab use/

If other groups had the ingenuity and made the technological advances that caucasians had, they too would have used them in such a devastating manner. Probably worse.

SeanBM:
I am not sure about the "moral" of your story, it's better to give one of your own smack than someone from outside your tribe but it's better to give someone outside your tribe a cup of tea?


I have or had know way of knowing what the beggar was going to spend the money on. If I was a betting man, I would put a twenty on some cheap booze or smack. My point is, we have an irrational instinct inside us all, to look after our own, ahead of outsiders.

SeanBM:
who are "our own".


That will vary per person.

Mines my family and friends, Dubs of a similar economic background, Irish people and then near the bottom, europeans or people of european ancestry. I wish the rest no harm and all the best, but thats about it.

SeanBM:
"Approximately 9/10 serial killers are white males between the ages of 20 and 35"


What? Back this up. Is a hitman working for gangs in Brixton considered a serial killer?

SeanBM:
you go on about how multiculturalism is the greatest evil ever


I never said that and I dont think you know what multiculturalism really means.

Nearly every nation is multicultural in some way. I grew up in an ethnically homogeneous city. But played soccer, gaelic and boxing. Watched Italian, Spanish and Irish soccer every weekend. British comedies. Went to Gaelic football matches. Watched Japanese horror movies. Listened to American music. Went on holidays in Spain. Ate their cuisine and absorbed the real spanish culture(not Brit/Irish areas.Real Spain)Ate Italian, Irish, and Asian food. Was taught French, Spanish and Latin in school. I could continue....

Moving a load of sub saharan africans, roma gypsies, arabs and eastern europeans into an area does not make it multicultural.

SeanBM:
about how it is costing the average Irishman,


It is. That, it is.

SeanBM:
it's only a drop in the ocean of what Berita and the bankers have done to "their own".


A minuscule number of politicians enter the game to better the nation or out of any sense of civil duty. Those that do, eventually become corrupted too. Same the world over.

SeanBM:
So your comments about race/accent/other tribes/immigrants needed by Poland fall short.


Its a warning from someone who grew up in a homogeneous city. Now, foreigners make up between 17-25% of the overall Irish population and even higher again, in my city, Dublin. In a decade. It was 2% or 3% in 2001. Thats a staggering statistic.

I am not a Polish citizen, and neither are you I suspect. So our opinions matter not a jot. It should be up to the people.
MarcinD Threads: 6
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 07:33am  #

I live in San Diego..... there are asian, hispanic, european, african ALL KINDS of girls & cultures here. Which is amazing in terms of food & entertainment but there are MANY problems that come with a Melting Pot

I constantly tell my friends about all the pretty white..... blue, green & hazel eyed girls in Poland.

I am not for closed borders at all BUT don't make the same mistake America did & sell out of your culture for $$$. Because ultimately, those that profit from the $$$ won't be dealing with the headaches that come with a overheated Melting Pot
pip Threads: 18
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  ♀   Apr 10, 2012, 07:34am  #

what exactly is the "american culture"?
MarcinD Threads: 6
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 07:44am  #

pip:
what exactly is the "american culture"?

Different patches dependent on the immigrants there

Puritans (North) + Cowboys (West), which were a spin off of Mexican vaquero & then Rednecks (South) mix of Cajuns & Africans
pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Edited by: pawian  Apr 10, 2012, 09:58am  #

MarcinD:
Puritans (North) + Cowboys (West), which were a spin off of Mexican vaquero & then Rednecks (South) mix of Cajuns & Africans


What about Little China and Little Italy? And all other Little ones? Jews? Poles? etc etc...... They all contributed to American culture.


MarcinD:
BUT don't make the same mistake America did & sell out of your culture for $$$.


The culture created by immigrants is being blown up by immigrants?

It is like revolution which eats its own?

Is that what you mean?
MarcinD Threads: 6
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  ♂   Edited by: MarcinD  Apr 10, 2012, 10:25am  #

pawian:
MarcinD:
Puritans (North) + Cowboys (West), which were a spin off of Mexican vaquero & then Rednecks (South) mix of Cajuns & Africans


What about Little China and Little Italy? And all other Little ones? Jews? Poles? etc etc...... They all contributed to American culture.

Correct but I was trying to remain as broad in my description as possible & include only the LARGE dominate populations. Unless you live in Chicago....there aren't that many Poles. Asians like to live with each other meaning a part of the city where it's mostly Asians.

American food would be BBQ

MarcinD:
BUT don't make the same mistake America did & sell out of your culture for $$$.


The culture created by immigrants is being blown up by immigrants?

It is like revolution which eats its own?

Is that what you mean?

Haha not quite. I mean the melting pot has so many ingredients it's unrecognizable. Each state in America is very different & have their own rights. So comparing a state like California & Arkansas would be like comparing different countries in Europe: Spain & Finland. I find life here (San Diego) to be very superficial & shallow so people are very two-faced. Capitalistic/Rat Race culture creates people always competing with each other. This is difficult enough in a society where everyone is the same skin color...but also religion....upbringing.....education.....social norms.

These are flaws that I feel only BIG cities in Poland suffer with. There is no question Poland needs to accept more immigrants, but I think it isn't an issue of Poland denying people but rather it isn't a marque job destination at the moment for middle-lower class immigrants.
Trevek Threads: 31
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 11:21am  #

pip:
what exactly is the "american culture"?


Jazz, Country, Rock'n'Roll, Beat poetry, new styles of art and architecture, fast food, pizzas and burgers (adapted from the old country)... big trucks and trains...

I'm not American, but I'm fed up of people suggesting there is no "culture" in America.
Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 11:30am  #

There is but it's not what you make it out to be.
When you write that American culture is rock'n roll, what do you mean by that exactly?
MarcinD:
There is no question Poland needs to accept more immigrants,

Obviously there is a question, why do you feel "there is no question?"
Here are some questions for you:
Are there no unemployed people in Poland?
Have all Poles stopped feeling the need to move abroad in order to make enough to move out of their parents' homes or raise a family on their own?
Are Poles all doing so well and there's a shortage of man-power despite fair conditions and attractive offers?

If the answer to any of those is "no" then that means Poles need to ensure Poland is better for Poles first and then worry about others. Why is this concept so difficult for seemingly intelligent people to digest?
Trevek Threads: 31
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  ♂   Edited by: Trevek  Apr 10, 2012, 12:13pm  #

Foreigner4:
There is but it's not what you make it out to be.
When you write that American culture is rock'n roll, what do you mean by that exactly?


Not so much much that American culture is rock'n'roll, rather than r'n'r is an element of American culture.

Well, all these styles are hybrids of other styles which have developed from American society, so original R'n'R came out of a meeting of a variety of other cultures (Black, Latino, White Southern rural), just as things like Blues developed from rural Black and White music, which transformed again when it moved into industrialised northern cities like detroit.

The popular cultural aspects of America reflect the social in many ways.

Of course, I haven't been to America, although I have relatives in Canada :-)

The thing is, when people talk about a "national culture", quite often it doesn't exist as a homogenous thing. I mean, you could ask, "What is Polish culture?" but the answer will differ at least slightly in different parts (so in warmia-Mazury they don't eat as much sheep cheese as in the Tatra mountains... indeed, there are hardly any sheep in WM). Likewise, the industrial culture of places like ¦l±sk are almost non-existent in places like Suwałki.

So, it doesn't take much to consider there isn't a single "American Culture" which is reflected across the board, except, perhaps, in some philosophies and ideologies (although that would be varied too).
pip Threads: 18
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  ♀   Apr 10, 2012, 12:40pm  #

Trevek:
Of course, I haven't been to America, although I have relatives in Canada :-)



sorry, Canada and America are not the same culture.
Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 01:31pm  #

pip:
sorry, Canada and America are not the same culture.

Yes and no.
A lot of Canadians are very very similar to Americans in many more ways than they are different. It's more a question of geography than nationality with a lot of the U.S. and Canada. Minnesotans and and Manitobans are very similar in a lot of ways perhaps moreso than Minnesotans and Georgians or Manitobans and Quebecois.

Trevek:
The thing is, when people talk about a "national culture", quite often it doesn't exist as a homogenous thing.

that's kind of what I was getting at with your "rock n roll" example. How that element of culture actually gets expressed in daily life in the U.S. is something pretty hard to define. Overall though, I think I see what you're getting at.
pip Threads: 18
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  ♀   Apr 10, 2012, 01:45pm  #

Foreigner4:
pip: sorry, Canada and America are not the same culture.
Yes and no.
A lot of Canadians are very very similar to Americans in many more ways than they are different. It's more a question of geography than nationality with a lot of the U.S. and Canada. Minnesotans and and Manitobans are very similar in a lot of ways perhaps moreso than Minnesotans and Georgians or Manitobans and Quebecois.


I disagree. Sharing the same weather or geographical area doesn't make them similar. Otherwise you could say that Germans and Poles are very similar or Poles and Ukrainians--and we know how that goes.
Trevek Threads: 31
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 05:52pm  #

Foreigner4:
that's kind of what I was getting at with your "rock n roll" example. How that element of culture actually gets expressed in daily life in the U.S. is something pretty hard to define. Overall though, I think I see what you're getting at.


Agreed, but then we could also say there is no single R'n'R, I mean there are so many sub-genres and, in the early days, regional variations. They just come from a source which was formed by the "American experience" and operate with an identity known as Rock'n'Roll.

This is kind of what I'd say American culture is, it is something formed from the experience of different original/migrant cultures under the heading of "America". It only exists because "America" made it exist and evolve. It is only defined because those within it define themselves as "American" and recognise others, who may express it differently as fellow "Americans".

So, when Pip says
pip:
sorry, Canada and America are not the same culture.
, I'd suggest the main reason they aren't is because they recognise themselves as Candadian and American. Otherwise, apart from certain regional/ethnic areas, how exactly is the culture so different? Would you also say that the US culture on the Mexican border is the same as that on the Canadian border? Does the culture change noticeably and radically when you cross into Canada?

To use the comparison of Ukrainians, Germans is not a solid comparison because of the language difference, for one. However, in some cases, like Lemko, Hutsul etc, they were defined as Polish or Ukrainian at different times of the 20th century. Likewise, Mazurians and Warmians have skated the thin ice of being "German" or "Polish". Likewise, what happens when someone talks of "Slavonic culture"? Usually the idiosyncracies are overlooked in the search for a common culture.
RevokeNice Threads: 23
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 06:19pm  #

Europe is being invaded by the third world and europeans are more concerned about the cultural differences between Americans and Canadians.

Couldnt make this up.
pip Threads: 18
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  ♀   Apr 10, 2012, 06:23pm  #

Trevek:
American. Otherwise, apart from certain regional/ethnic areas, how exactly is the culture so different? Would you also say that the US culture on the Mexican border is the same as that on the Canadian border? Does the culture change noticeably and radically when you cross into Canada?



Americans are raised to think they are the best in the world at everything. They are ego centrical by nature and expect the world to accommodate them because they are American.
Canadians don't have that. Of course there are A-holes in every country and I am finding that Canadians are starting to find American behaviour acceptable within Canada. But within Canada you don't find the same amount of people spewing "it is my right to (insert current issue) because I am an American"
Canada is more socialist. We have health care and generally take care of the people- we have a safety net---Americans think the safety net is "anti American and communist"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0EsYiNA76Q

This is a cute parody on Canadian words.

Canada is not a melting pot. We are a mosaic and those that immigrate are encouraged to keep their culture as long as they learn one of the official languages.

There is not one culture. We have aboriginals, French, English and depending on which part of the country you live in- there are pockets of Indians, Lebanese, Greeks, Portuguese and many Asian cultures- all living together.

If you are interested there is an Indian Canadian comedian named Russell Peters who makes fun of other cultures- he is really funny--not offensive- he makes fun of himself and his family and growing up Indian in Canada.

The culture is different. I can spot the differences between Americans and Canadians living in Poland. Americans are louder and more in your face. Accents and use of language also plays a huge part in it too.
Trevek Threads: 31
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  ♂   Edited by: Trevek  Apr 10, 2012, 06:37pm  #

RevokeNice:
Europe is being invaded by the third world and europeans are more concerned about the cultural differences between Americans and Canadians.


I wonder if the Americas said something similar when the Irish came over in force ;-)

But, to be honest, I don't think any discussion on this board, even if it manages to get above the mindless racism/ ethnocentrism which usually crops up, will have a major impact on anything.

pip:
If you are interested there is an Indian Canadian comedian named Russell Peters who makes fun of other cultures- he is really funny--not offensive- he makes fun of himself and his family and growing up Indian in Canada.


Thanks, I'll look him up.

pip:
Americans are louder and more in your face.


Funny, playing in a band with a Canadian and an American and it's the other way around.

I suppose Canadians are less "we're the best" than Americans because they still have a Queen in another country.
pip Threads: 18
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  ♀   Apr 10, 2012, 06:50pm  #

Trevek:
pip: Americans are louder and more in your face.

Funny, playing in a band with a Canadian and an American and it's the other way around.

I suppose Canadians are less "we're the best" than Americans because they still have a Queen in another country.




could be but I think it is deeper than that. and I am not anti American, but I have been watching Canada melt into the U.S. and it disturbs me.
RevokeNice Threads: 23
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 06:57pm  #

Trevek:
I wonder if the Americas said something similar when the Irish came over in force ;-)


They most certainly did and should have sent back the first european settlers that arrived on their land. Very few red lads left around today, mind. I dont want to end up like them. Although Revokes Casino and Games Emporium has a nice ring to it.

Trevek:
But, to be honest, I don't think any discussion on this board, even if it manages to get above the mindless racism/ ethnocentrism which usually crops up, will have a major impact on anything.


Of course it wont. Its already set in stone. In a century from now ethnic europeans will be a small minority in each and every european state.
Trevek Threads: 31
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 07:02pm  #

pip:
could be but I think it is deeper than that. and I am not anti American, but I have been watching Canada melt into the U.S. and it disturbs me.


It must be all the Americans escaping from Bush who contaminated the air ;-)
Foreigner4 Threads: 15
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 07:15pm  #

pip:
I disagree. Sharing the same weather or geographical area doesn't make them similar. Otherwise you could say that Germans and Poles are very similar or Poles and Ukrainians--and we know how that goes.

I did not write that weather and geographical area are the sole reasons for cultural similarities; you've simply misinterpreted the point.
Manitobans and Minnesotans are similar due to geography and weather because ethnicity, language, popular culture, standard of living and religion are already so similar. Because those things are so similar, you will find the bordering State and Provincial populations to be more similar than the northern border state populations are to the the southern ones. I thought this was common knowledge.

However you will find Poles to be more similar to Germans than to e.g. Greeks and you will find Poles and Germans to have closer bonds goegraphically and in terms of weather so there is something to say for those factors whether you are able to acknowledge it or not.

pip:
Americans are raised to think they are the best in the world at everything. They are ego centrical by nature and expect the world to accommodate them because they are American.Canadians don't have that.

It's like for some Canadians, a lot of their identity is that they aren't American, and if they didn't tell you in as loud a voice as possible, you'd never know.
BBman Threads: -
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  ♂   Apr 10, 2012, 07:17pm  #

do you know there are still many people of Polish origin in Eastern countries?

Yes of course I totally overlooked this in my previous post. Add to my list, "make it easier for poles in the former ussr/those with karts polaka to settle in Poland permanently."


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