Is the E.U. good for Poland??

You are absolutely right, you cannot discuss with facts.



Of course both parties are against EU membership, huge socialist bureaucracy this is not what we like in opposition to "liberals" from PO.

1% :) of support :) bye bye Roman

I have noticed that you have strong tendency of escaping from serious discussion when lacks of argument. I suggest you to buy Milton Friedman (hopefully you heard about him...) books and study it carefully, perhaps you at least learn what is economic liberalism all about.

Ok But PO is real and LPR are extreme nationalists against EU ... PO from real parties are the most liberal look on economy what is more I want EU constitution and I want EU army ... so LPR/UPR isnt my choice

as to my knowledge I m speculant (FOREX/WIG20/DAX) so I use my skils everyday (according economy)

You know that I have never even consider voting for LPR but I disagree with you. Polish media distort public debate with their aggressive rhetoric and promotion of political ignorants like Wierzejski, Kurski, Niesiołowski or Senyszyn. They love populist labels because this improve their number of viewers. However I would wish people in Poland don't blindly buy everything what they say. If you constantly exaggerate and use words like "extremists" then someday when real extremist appear you will struggle the right word to name them because "extremist" would be ignored by public opinion as nothing new.

Other question is that indeed PO is real , however this reality is very sad... You people are surprised why PiS is still so popular, who caused this, who is responsible for the rise of PiS? PiS gained their popularity being anti-corruptionist! Except commies this is PO politicians the one responsible for most swindles in this country. Mr Lewandowski and his shady privatizations, he should be jailed and not seat in the Euro-parliament, "Warsaw's bridge" and Piskorski and recently Mrs Sawicka another MP from PO. You know one must be really stupid to take a bribe in the middle of election campaign when nearly everybody in this country realize that PiS only waits for an opportunity to catch such individuals and show public opinion in TV that they are the only un-corrupt party. This recent affair is just another dud in PO's long campaign of discreditation of economic liberalism. How they want to win a majority when half of Poland think liberal=thief?!



Did you at least read EU constitution? If not, how often do you sign unread documents? (being a speculant as you wrote)
If yes, tell us please what on earth this consitution has to do with economic liberalism? This is the longest constitution in history of universe, what is more hardly readable (intentionally, I can provide quotes of EU-bureaucrats if you wish)




So vote for PiS :) If you support this, what is your stance on NATO? |Should be abolished or you want pay for both destinations (and raise taxes to afford this luxury )

as to LPR my good friend is member of this party I totaly disagree with him but we like each other and we are friends since High School, when we drink vodka together ;) and we discuss I know it is not my choice...

as to media ... Yes I know, now we have real problem with media in all over the world. FOX in USA is grate example, at least we have internet and it really helps to know some different opinions.


As to politicians PO is my choice, in all countries thera are corrption scandals, but PO wants less influcene of gov on citizens life and I like this idea and in my opinion corruption will decrease when officers will dont have opportunity to take bribes.




ok I havent read it ... but I m sure Giertych has showed all disadvatages (he is against it) and I think that it will be good for Europena countries to stick together.




I think EU should become partner of USA and we can cooperate in some cases, when atcked by other forces, like China or Russia we should help each other, but to be partner we have to have our European forces. And about being partner of sb we need to have constitution ...

in an ideal world this would be great but while u have people in power like bush it will never happen. And while money is the only word on these leaders lips... things will stay as they are and more then likely become even worse before better.....so until they all go running with their tails between their legs like mr blur we can only sit back and watch this world be distroyed by arse holes

Giertych is an authority for a supposed liberal? :)



To which theory or practical solution you refer? I would like to read something on this subject, because so far it is a mystery for me .

What is funny that you write that we must have this constitution and you are completely disinterested what is inside! But your unwillingness to read this document betrays its flawed character, you except this to be very long, very boring and completely unreadable. While constitution should be short and absolutely obvious from definition.

Look how good constitution should look like, few pages not volumes...
upr.podlasie.pl/staticpages/index.php?page=konstytucja
usconstitution.net/const.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7051999.stm

so PiS supported EU treaty just before their defeat in elections, and PO is definitely pro EU

I'm British Nigel - and am pro Europe. We can't compare the two countries. I vote Labour in Britain and would vote PO in Poland if I had the vote, and in many ways the two are different.
In my view the EC is good for Poland because, if for nothing else, and I'm sorry here all you Polish lads and lasses - but your government wouldn't have a clue what to do on very simple matters if they were not led by the hand and actually shown how things should be done.
I refer to mind blowingly "trivial" matters like free toilets in restaurants and in supermarkets.

Sure - and when did America help Poland in WW2? If they hadn't been attacked you would still be waiting.................

The relationship between Poles and America = individual Polonia wealth. Europe is where Poland's future lies.

I agree, Polish politicians indeed think in this way. They have absolutely no idea what should be done and they are afraid that they will destroy everything. So this is better to pass all problems to Brussels. One could think if they have no idea why they are in politics but this is rhetoric question I suppose.

On other hand Brussels bureaucrats know what they want, they are confident. When their project will be finished we will wake up like Josef K. in Franz Kafka novel "The Trial".



Judging by the fact that this new constitutional treaty is 63,000 words long, issues that you mentioned are also included. What would we do without bureaucrats!

oh yes, what I have written so many times here about what I think about our relationship with USA ... history is history all in all read about Polish -Ukrainian relationships in past esp 1920 (Petlura army) ... and we cooperat now and they considere us the best friends (according the focuses)

but I think weak Russia is in our business it means in all EU-USA countries business, weak Russia means chip mineral resouces ... and peace :)P

Nobody will use atomic bomb and send tanks to coutries who can use nulear wepon. Now we are in different reality, Russian hakers atacking some EU countries, China making the same to get some practice and expirience, does the same with EU and USA. Mineral resources it is long story ... On wihich side we are? Of course EU and in some way with USA.

We have some new unions, EU is much bigger, USA wants to create North American Union (Mexic Canada USA) they copy EU because they feel EU is stronger. Now there are two different alinaces, EU and USA ... we cooperate with each other ... but I can feel EU dont want USA donination, and It is grate idea, Microsoft in EU court paing for breking EU rules, 10 years ago the were coming here and dictate rules and game we play in Europe, now it changes. But there are some things we can do together ... esp new Players like China (Regime) ...

LibertyForum.com

The EU bureaucrats have full mouth of democracy loving slogans but when is needed they neither care about democratic elections or how people voted in referendums. I'm not great admirer of democracy but for sure I more honestly stick to its rules than those cheap propagandists.

joepilsudski

so why you have chosen USA ? Why have you left Poland ?




your ideas have 1% of support ... maybe because you are not greate admirers of democracy ...

Rather not because people are not aware of this. Also I would not generalize. Still I don't think that switching to other system would be positive for our country these days.

However this is thread about the EU rather than UPR, so you should rather comment their undemocratic recidivism. Or perhaps some holy cows cannot be criticized at all?

By the way, do you think that a system where two drunkards have together twice more votes than one university professor is smart?

joepilsudski

so why you have chosen USA ? Why have you left Poland ?


I was born in America and have lived here most of my life...I have entertained the idea of moving to Poland, but due to the weakness of the dollar right now, and also my apprehension about getting work there, I am hesitant about making the move...I am a Polish-American.

as to EU ... yes I agree they are bureaucrats, hords of officers, thousents of regulations ... but all in all we are part of it and we can influece on direction it goes... in EU we dont have only German bureaucrats but more normal countries like UK, Ireland, Holand, new European countries. We have a lot of bureacracy in our country but in comparison to some EU states we dont have this problem ... There is hope we will simply over vote our ideas in EU ...



No ... I know this idea, you can read about similar idea which was tested for example in XIX century in UK, there votes of rich were more important than poor (or simply rich could vote and poor not)




It depends on your occupation all in all you can be English teacher in private school ;)

Almost all projects of reforms in the EU are created in the European Commission and they are bunch of unelected bureaucrats. Naturally they will never willing to reduce its own influences. Those who stand against their vision of the EU, they will label "Anti-European". These days this "accusation" seems to be somewhere around "fascist". Such people are not worth to discuss with them anything (zaplute karly reakcji :) ), so there will be no public debate.



This was very oligarchic. I would power of the vote make dependent from how educated are voters. Then it would be up to them to learn and gain more influence. Of course I realize that many educated people are fools as well but anyway quality of such elections would be higher. Politicians would need to start fight for educated voters, because today they offer only populism directed to majority of ignorant crowd.

OK I agree. I would sell half of their properties in Brussels, all in all now we take so many EU funds that we shouldnt be worried about costs of bureaucracy there. I just think about citizens of UK, Holland or Irealand. They pay for those all officers ... no comment. Later they take back regulations like "carrot is vegetable" ;)

Idea of EU is grate but we should try to change it, now there is more countries who look on this bureaucracy and think that it should be done different ... so maybe in future when we will not be "new one" ... and there will be more coutries will share our point of view ...



For first think it isnt bad idea, but just imagine situation when you have to pay for your education, and only one group of people who have enought money to pay for it ... are Oligarchs.

When we look on which countries are the richest. We see that democratic or those who have mineral resources ... we dont have oil or gas ;) so maybe it is better to stay democratic :)

Oh yes, I know many such examples. Frog is a fish (slodkowodna). But it is even more funny if you know why they did it. But such details just proofs that a bureaucrat give a damn about truth, he can say that black is white and white is black and you must deal with it.


Rich people always have easier way, this is not an excuse. I have pleasure to met many educated people from poor families. Their motivation is strong while those richer have a problem with this.



Ok, so lets look at the times when absolute monarchies were in majority. Somehow exactly the same countries are the richest. They were the richest long time before democracy appeared. They earned their wealth at that time. Also look at Chile, if Pinochet would not overthrow democratically elected Marxists they would be still poor. Actually Chile is far in front of other South American countries.

Not democracy as we know it, but Ancient Greece?

The EU has much room for improvement, but it is better that it is there.

Chile is long story, when you look on details Pinoched isnt hero at all ... but maybe I will leave this issue.



Actualy my sister works in EU funds, and when she told me how it looks ... They spend so enormous amounts of money on officers and procedures ... long story. Now it is good business for Poland but Eu could use less money and have the same efect of help they give us. Reality looks horible, they train officers and this officers train next officers, other officers checks projects, other checks officers who check projects, nextly there are officers who check procedures ...... We are definately on plus so we shouldnt complain ;) but it could be done better...



agree, EU is very good ;) but it realy could be better and less bureaucratic.

This is aside subject. However in democratic ancient Greece (indeed this very different kind of democracy) pedophilia was common and in good taste! How this ancient Greece ended anyway? ;)

The left always wants to improve socialism by some very small liberal corrections. Centuries passing away and they still failed to do so. The foundation of the EU is socialist and as such cannot be successful. This must be the other way around, the foundation should be liberal and then we could think what socialist improvements we should install to preserve proper balance. The EU has no bright future, cannot compete with Asia in longer run.

oh yes so join some Asian countries like Russia or China ...

I prefere EU :)

I don't think that Russia have bright future with their current political elites. However Chinese want to make all country look like Hong Kong and they don't waste a time for democracy just doing so. Of course they are far too much brutal according to my taste but anyway they will overtake the EU without problem. Also Asia it is also Japan, South Korea, Singapore. Other less developed countries of this region will rather follow them than socialist European Union.