Is the E.U. good for Poland??

Thread attached on merging:
Poland in the EU -- we are not doing well.

In the EU, we are not that good at all. When i hear of Poland's growth, I thought they were flourishing. But when i looked at the stats, they have the highest unemployment rate in the EU, a GDP of 16000, and in the bottom 3 countries in the EU next to ROMANIA AND BULGARIA!! THAT IS PATHETIC! It kind of makes me ashamed of being polish in a way. I hope Poland's economy GROWS so we can be as rich as Germany or trance. I dont mean to be rude or anything, but thats just embarrassing.

Take my advice - stay where you are, learn German or French and say that you are from one of these countries. That's should be a good deal for both us and you.

You get ashamed very easily.

I know I shouldnt get ashamed easily, its not like I am, but its a letdown. Even if poland does grow strong, so will other countries, and poland wont be anywhere near germany or irelands rank. =(

Poland has been economically and politically free for only 18 years. Do you think that Germany, UK or particularly Ireland became rich instantly? Don't worry; Poland is going to become rich.

Let's see:

1. Between 1939 and 1945 Poland lost over 65% of economic and intellectual infrastructure, destroyed methodically by the Germans. Building, roads, factories, bridges, universities, schools were destroyed. In the aftermath of WW2 many industrial installations in usable condition were dismantled by the Soviets and transported to the USSR.

2. Soviets made sure that Poland (Unlike Germany) was not allowed to benefit from Marshal plan.

3. Between 1939 and 1946 Poland lost many of the best of Poland's assets - professors, scientists, teachers, doctors, dentists, officers, journalists, and others were either murdered in mass executions or sent to prisons, gulags and concentration camps. That's tens of thousands of the nation's intellectual asset.

4. In the years after WW2 Poland lost lost many of the best of Poland's human assets to emigration, prison, murder and persecution due to Soviet repression.

5. In the years after WW2 Poland was systematically plundered by the Soviet occupant through the so called EEC (RWG in Polish).

6. In the years after WW2, because of its continued resistance to the communist ideology and the Soviet occupation, Poland's technological and industrial development was deliberatelly kept at bay and slowed down. EEC (actually, its Soviet bosses) decided Poland would be an agricultural country, with only absolutely bare and essential focus on high-tech, industry, services and science.

(I won't even go into over 100 years of Poland's partitions and the losses suffered during that period)

Considering the above, I think Poland is doing just fine. Certainly better than countries such as you mentioned, even though those countries did not suffer even half of what Poland did during WW2.

You can feel all the shame you want, but I can't help but assume that it is because you are likely a young fella, with a strong need of instant gratification. That kind of gratification is not easilly attainable by any nation that barely started to breathe freely only less than 20 years ago. If you expect miracles then some form of religion may possibly help with your anxieties.

Why would you feel ashamed of your country because it has a lower GDP than other countries? I dont understand that comment to be honest. I've noticed that many Polish people place a very high emphasis on money and prestige but that is a little extreme no? IMO Poland is doing very well. Unemployment is decreasing on a monthly basis and in time there will be more prosperity. Two of my Polish friends, both engineers, are returning to Poland after Christmas because they say that it is now easier to get work in Poland than in Ireland. Unemployment is beginning to rise here and its possible that we will see a sharp economic downturn. It wouldnt make me feel ashamed to be Irish though.

you mean the owners of
poland,which wont be your lot

we do fantastic sausages.

If you don`t mind Polson, i would remove our disscusion hire... and, let`s try to found out is it EU good for Poland, having in mind key principles of EU as society...


I want to elaborate this subject and fact that EU isn`t based on Western (Slavic) and Christian but on Semitic heritage.

On the first place, I would underline that i don`t use word Semitic in some pejurative sense. Just, trying to use appropriate designation for historic and modern chategories.

Now, let`s see what one article/petition... `Accession of Turkey to the European Union`, telling to us...

Even creators of this petition couldn`t avoid to admit (to be proud with) Semitic roots of today`s Europen heritage, placing Christian roots of Europeans on the end of importance...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-06-01


Christian values were even denied when European constitution was written...
Crunch time for Convention as deadline looms near

Published: Thursday 5 June 2003
euractiv.com/en/future-eu/crunch-time-convention-deadline-looms-near/article-112254




To be continued

I think it's not a matter of Christian roots or not, but simply of secularity. Why would we always include religion (here Christianity) in our decisions ? Why can't we only think on our own, and not with what wants the Church ? For me, religion is a personal matter and has nothing to do in issues such as European's or a country's.

Polly, Christian roots/values are much more than going to the church.

Yes G, but apart from going to the church every Sunday morning, people who are influenced by the Church, take decisions according to what the church says, and they take these decisions for everybody, Christian or not.

Amin, brate

Note, how we think same on this, no matter that one is Catholic and other Orthodox

This can be explained on many ways. One explanation, philosophicaly, could be this ... When faced (even forced to live with) with non-Christian values, we understand beauty of Christanity. When we (not you and me but some people) had opportunity to coexist as Christians we (some people) failed. Considering that we are both Slavs, our (of some people) failure is even bigger. By anology, EU is punishment.

:)

hundreds of thousands who take advantage of EU policies (such as the right to work elsewhere) probably wouldn't agree. overall Poland is doing well although many economic indicators suggest otherwise. everyday I walk the streets and I feel relatively safe, everyday I see new trams and buses and other improvements, and people are generally well dressed and look well-fed. Go to the Ukraine for a couple of days, then when you cross the border back into Poland you will say to yourself: damn, its pretty nice here after all - smooth roads, clean functional toilets, etc..

I haven't read all the posts in this, now lengthy thread, so I have a question which is basically the same one but asked in a different way: would Poland be better outside EU, while surrounded by EU member countries? Was there a realistic and plausable alternative?

So you ask whether Poland would be better outside of huge bureaucracy? The answer is obvious, I mean yes of course, no matter under what name this bureaucracy would hide behind. You don't need to be member of the EU to join the Schengen zone (Iceland, Norway and Switzerland that is expected to join soon). To keep free trade zone or allow foreigners to work in such zone, countries need to sign proper treaty and there is no need for any parasites like "European" institutions and their regulations. The best example is that that Poles cannot work in all EU member countries despite being a full member. They can work only in those with which they came to agreement in bilateral negotiations. Instead to swallow all those ridiculous EU regulations Poland should finally reject socialism and organize a whole bunch of economically liberal reforms. If you chose this way then others need to worry that they are not enough competitive.

Beside of that Poland is not surrounded by the EU, we border three countries which are not a members and they are not expected to join anytime soon.

interesting article, which is in connection with topic, as we would see

EU 'should expand beyond Europe'

BBC News

Thursday, 15 November 2007, 18:04 GMT
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7095657.stm


Focus your attention on this... ``Middle Eastern and North African countries``. I mean, forget about proposal that EU include Russia, that`s not serious or to say that is mentioned just to hide real EU intentions, intentiones and thoughts of ruling inteligentsia in EU.

Once, in time of Roman Empire, in time of Caesar, Marc Anthony and Cleopatra (and before them) existed idea about unity of Roman Empire, Greek world and Egypt. Those ideas in its beckground had nothing else then attempt for creation of Unity based on principle `una faca, una rasa`. To be more precise, ruling elites of Rome, Egypt and Greek world were (and still are) racialy same and share common Semitic origin.

So, no wonder that they tend to unite, to combine their economic and spiritual potentials.


Mr Miliband, who urges that EU 'should expand beyond Europe'

about Mr Miliband

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miliband



Why would Mr Miliband think that he knows what is good for Poles and for Slavs in general? Why would our destine depend on Mr Miliband? Who gave that power to Mr Miliband?

Socialist utopia has not borders. Sooner it expand, sooner will be crushed.

Neither does the capitalist free market have any borders. I think what many Poles dont realise is that if you open up to market capitalism you must accept (what some would see as) its negatives as well as its positives. Globalisation not only means the globalisation of the market place through the removal of tariffs and the advent of free trade, but it also requires the free movement of labour (and by effect culture) to satisfy the needs of the market.

Its an internationalised system with which you could draw many similarities with the communist ideal ie there are no countries, just "the market". I dont think many Poles and others from the old communist bloc really realise this.

You confuse terms, what you describe is called "anarcho-capitalism" and have very few supporters in opposition to socialism.

Perhaps its classical definition would be "anarcho-capitalism" but many of us who have lived all our lives in the west can see that that is what the current form of western free-market capitalism is in reality. A constant undermining of the nation state has been taking place over the past few decades. There has been a constant move toward the privatisation of public services, the lowering of taxes (especially taxes on corporations), and a relaxation of regulation in the market place. All these changes are justified based on a belief that the "free market" will solve all problems.

A belief in the market as a mythical entity which will only find its equilibrium when all interference in it by Government is ended, has been adopted by many western leaders as their underlying ideology.

I would draw a comparison between those who believe blindly in the mythical free market and those who once believed blindly in the communist system. Of course, the fact that a refusal to regulate the financial markets properly is responsible for the USA now facing into its largest financial crisis since the Great depression is overlooked. Also, the fact that since the 1960s, the middle class, which has been the backbone of western society since the advent of the industrial revolution, has been decreasing in size, would suggest that free-market capitalism is slowly killing itself in its constant search for "growth".

Most Poles I know only compare free market capitalism with communism as if there are only two options available. Of course, when I point out these things to my Polish friends, they think I am espousing a return to communism (I am not). Life is not black and white. There are many grey areas.

IMO countries, such as Poland, which now have a chance to re-structure their economies and societies in a forward thinking and sustainable way, instead seem to want to follow western societies, especially the USA, down an unsustainable path based on nothing more than the search for debt induced quick money. The USA is bankrupt and the west in general is in decline.

EU isn't perfect but is good for Poland

Yes but this is not caused by capitalists but by socialists.



The EU is generally socialist, over-taxed. Free market doesn't even exist within of the EU, millions of regulations, tariffs, limits, quotas hurt our economy. Private business woks always better than state owned. I would agree that taxes should be reduced for average citizens as well. They reduce taxes to corporations only because they are corrupt.

Four ways to spend money:

1. You spend your money on yourself. You're motivated to get the thing you want most at the best price. This is the way middle-aged men haggle with Porsche dealers.

2. You spend your money on other people. You still want a bargain, but you're less interested in pleasing the recipient of your largesse. This is why children get underwear at Christmas.

3. You spend other people's money on yourself. You get what you want but price no longer matters. The second wives who ride around with the middle-aged men in the Porsches do this kind of spending at Neiman Marcus. (corruption among bureaucrats)

4. You spend other people's money on other people. And in this case, who cares? (This is goverment!)



You are wrong, better look at the EU parliament squad. This is good outlook for all Europe, majority of MEPs are socialists, greens and communists while their theoretical opponents are not such great capitalist warriors at all.




I completely disagree. This is other way around, Americans became more socialistic and pay the price. They increasing spendings on education, health care, military and different kind of unnecessary destinations. Finally goverment is out of cash, so the print money and cause inflation. Depression is natural thing and should be awaited, what they are doing now only make this crises to last longer.



These days everybody in Europe chose one way and this is euro-socialism... I would certainly try to avoid western mistakes. Especially Europe looks poor, while Americans lost their way after Reagan.



What a empty statement without argumentation. Read the whole thread and start polemics if you have arguments to back this position. I seriously suspect that most of EU supporters have no clue about how this organization works...

Nonsense.Education,health care and much of military in USA are private buisiness,no relation to state at all.If the colleges,universities or hospitals raise their fees,it is not a government's decision.Americans want to spend their money on them,not the government.
Military is more complex situation.

EU cares more about stability and preservation,they are not very open to new ideas.Many proffessionals(lawyers,ingeniuers,doctors) have it much harder in EU than in USA and unemployment is more than double in EU in comparison to USA.The Europeans are reluctant to change something because it will undermine traditional structures which guarantee stability.Persons in charge in Europe are very old and come from different generations.They want to have everything regulated and under control so that competition does not hurt the ones who fail.

I'm not talking about private businesses but government's spendings.

Americans spend a lot for their interventionist policy, wars, military bases all over the world. These are unnecessary spendings.

Spendings on education, Bush's No Child Left Behind Act
URL

Health care, increasing spendings on Medicare program.
URL



Plenty of them cheered for commies when young, old habits die hard.

Clinton started this program.Republicans actually cut many funds of it.



More complex situation.USA spends now 15% of the entire GDP on health.Do you find this bad?

Anyway Europe needs to change.There is no fair play in Europe.Too much intervention and constant change of the rules of the game,double standards etc.
Basically in Europe it is like this:If you have no connections,you will work for you,for the person who has and for the person who cannot work much.
If you belong to a clique,you will achieve what you want despite any incompetence.There are no obstacles.
If you do not belong to a clique,there are only obstacles and no way to be fully rewarded.You have to work for the benefit of others.If you react,you are a bloody liberal capitalist.If you prefer total state control in order to work as much as the others,you are a communist freak.
So some people have to work less(the socialists) while others have to work more(the scum) for the benefit of society.
In general the philosophy is if you are competent to work,then you have to work for the benefit of others who are not competent.If you refuse,you get punished.This is eurosocialism.It worked 20 years ago,it does not work so good now,because both the competent and the incompetent are pressed and nobody wants to lose his priviledge.

While agreeing that socialism, by its nature, is naturally opposed to the concept of the nation state, I would say that global capitalism is also. The need to constantly search for growth means that any barriers to trade such as borders, tariffs etc are in opposition to the ideal of a free market. While the veneer of Statehood has been retained, more and more of the tools available to the democratically elected representatives of the population (ie the consituent parts of the State), which allow them provide for the best interests of their citizens have been stripped away. This has been done through blind adherence to the priciples of liberal free-market democracy and ties in with your next point -



I disagree with your above statement. I think it should be re-phrased to read that private business works better sometimes than state owned. While very often agreeing on the problems which we all face this is where most of my Polish friends and I diverge in opinion. I think it is due to the fact that their experience of State run companies comes from a non-functioning Polish communist system. The fact of the matter is that in the west a number of State owned companies have deteriorated drastically following privatisation. Here in ireland, I would point to Eircom, our telecoms provider as being one example. British Rail in the UK is another prime example of a disastrous switch to private enterprise. There are other examples also. So it is clear that some services are best provided by the State.

With regard to the EU, I would agree with you when you say that it is bureaucracy gone mad. It has far too much influence over peoples lives within the Member States and I would agree that its influence should be kerbed.

However, to say that it is a socialist entity is not correct IMO. Whilst it engages in forms of outward protectionsim, inwardly it is a free market enterprise. Also labels of political parties mean very little in Europe these days and it has been that way for many years. Parties may say they are socialist or whatever in their manifestos but once in power all pursue the same liberal free-market policies because to do otherwise would mean that they would have no chance of re-election. I would see Labour in England as a prime example. Socialist in name but free-market libertarians in practice.



With regard to the States they have massive systemic problems because they have allowed a credit bubble to develop in the belief that to do so was to encourage free enterprise and financial innovation. We see now that non-regulation of the mortgage sector in the USA has meant that when some poor person is given a mortgage they cant afford in Alabama it ends up collapsing banks in the city of London a la Northern Rock. The Fed, and Greenspan in particular, encouraged this process by lowering interest rates to previously unheard of levels to make money as cheap as possible so that people could keep consuming. In other words Americans have been buying things they dont need with money they dont own for about two decades now. The globalised free market which they espouse and have created, has encouraged their companies to go to cheaper countries to produce goods. In addition the Chinese,Indians and others produce most of the goods and services that the USA consumes. The fact that their dollar has been so strong has meant that this could continue but it could not go on forever. Now that the dollar is being destroyed by the Fed they will soon be unable to keep consuming and recession/depression is on the cards. The US to me, is a perfect example of why free-market capitalism is doomed to failure. Yes some people will get very rich but the rest of the people get gradually poorer and poorer and slide in to debt slavery. IMO it is a form of economic extremism and extremism is never good. But I think this is another example of me and a Pole agreeing on many of the problems but seeing totally different reasons and solutions!

I think the point I have tried to make a number of times with Polish friends of mine is that IMO because communism was a disaster Poles seem to want to go in the extreme opposite direction. I understand why and I think it is very a natural reaction. However, as you have pointed out, the west and USA in particular, are not great examples. However, Poland seems to want to follow them down the same path. We seem to be agreed that this may not be the best thing to do, especially at the moment.

Personally, having visited Scandinavia, I think there is a lot the rest of us could learn from those societies which seemed to me to have a good balance between personal freedoms and rights along with also having good social systems and public services.

Anway I've gone a bit off topic here. Suffice to say that I think it is better for Poland to be in the EU rather than outside it. My real problem would be more with the direction the EU is taking of late.

What happens is that Chinese,Saudis etc lend Americans money to buy their products,that is they support US economy.In retrospect Americans allow them keeping fixed ratio of chinese Yuan to american dollar,so that every time dollar falls,not only american products become cheaper and more competitive in european market but also chinese products become more competitive in Europe and do not lose their competitiveness in american market.
To solve the problem without having to let the euro lose value,EU decided to ban some branches of chinese products,which means that some countries like Italy were hit by the cheap chinese textiles while some other suropean countries do not have to face the chinese competition and keep their strong position inside EU market which in further means that european citizens fund some european products to increase their competitiveness,in other words they have to pay more than the Americans have to for the same product when they pay more taxes as well to support more extended state business and when their slaries are lower due to state regulations which have come from Brussels buerocracy.

So why Italians do not react for example?Because they are given funds in other branches of economy like agriculture which would not be competitive without EU subsidies which come in order to compete the american products which are also subsidised by the US and so US has to press EU to cut subsidied to agricultural products and let americans overflow the market(eg discussion about genetically reformed products and their ban in EU) while EU tries to keep out cheap american and chinese products by implementing quality and strict environmental etc regulations(Greens are also useful).

Result of all these unnecessary wars and regulations is that Europeans have to work more than Americans in order to be able to buy less products.

Americans own more "products" because they have borrowed more money. They have been on a binge for over twenty years now and have become so accustomed to this way of life that they have forgotten that eventually everybody has to pay back what they borrow. With the serious downturn in their economy many are finding that they are in real trouble. Look at this article from California about hundreds of people who have lost their homes and are now living in tented cities, similar to what you see in South America.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view_article.php?artic le_id=108210

As for the point about the dollar, Arab oil has been priced in dollars. The Chinese have been buying dollars. All this has kept America afloat. Now that they are devaluing their dollar, do you think the Arabs and the Chinese will want to hold onto their dollars? I dont think so. Once they start to sell which they will soon have to do, American dollars will not be able to buy much. I think we are seeing the beginning of end of Empire, much like USSR in 1980s.