Is the E.U. good for Poland??

They do not have the luxury of choosing.The debts to them will be paid in devaluated dollars if USA needs to do so.
You should also know that if ever a crisis or recession hits US economy the first who will suffer are South American nations cause american investments in these countries will be withdrawn and US willl press for paying their debts to it.Europe will suffer great too.And of course some asian tigers will see collapse.
I do not understand why euro is kept so high and not devalued when EU GDP growth is so low in average.A devalued euro would boost exports and make many products competitive.But these old folks in Brussels do care only about stability,they miss the chances to hit strong.

That is true. But that is also why in my opinion, they will very soon stop running anymore debts in dollars. There are rumours that the Chinese recently refused to buy anymore US backed Government bonds despite high level US officials having travelled there to try and convince them to do so. The Americans are running out of options. IMO oil will be valued in yuan within 10-15 years. Remember that for all but two of the centuries since the birth of Jesus Christ, the Chinese and Indian economies have been the largest in the world. Once they complete their current industrial revolutions it is quite likely that this will be the case again.

The European Central Bank has a mandate simply to keep inflation under control. They leave job creation ie growth, to the Governments. In the US the Fed has a dual mandate of dealing with inflation and attempting to stimulate growth. Remember also, that the Fed is a private institution as opposed to a State facility. Not many people actually realise this. Therefore, they have the interests of Wall Street at heart, not the citizens of the democracy which they are supposed to serve.Thats the difference.

Anyway, I fully support the ECB's position in not cutting interest rates and keeping its eye firmly on inflation. I agree with you that this policy does not stimulate massive growth but it means that most people (citizens of the European countries) have homes to live in and enough to eat. The policies of the Fed have enriched bankers and Wall Street traders at the expense of the ordinary people whose real (ie non debt-induced) income has been decreasing in that country for many years. They are reliant on debt to survive. Now that the banks can no longer provide them with the cheap credit they require this is the result


youtube.com/watch?v=jmeHiFZUWtE

and this is only the beginning...

Personally, as somebody who worked in America as a young man and who loves that country, I find it very sad to see what is happening to it. The elite have effectively used the savings of ordinary people to enrich themselves by inflating a massive credit bubble which is no different to a pyramid scheme. They have done this under the guise of liberal unregulated "free-market" economics. America now faces into a depression NOT a recession. There is a huge difference. The need for constant "growth" is at the heart of the problem as without "growth", the pyramid scheme economy cannot function.

Rumours.




Not at all.Even a small range war can increase their margin of profit.



Why?Yuan is as stable as the dollar.



Once they complete their industrial revolutions they will be able to produce more,better and cheaper products for americans to buy.



Simply?Very simple indeed.Only one mission.



But how can the governments achieve growth if exports are pressed by the expensive euro?How can national economies face the competition of the cheap chinese and american products?



Of course they have.Because they see that the one is connected to the other.In my view they have guidelines and sometimes experiment n order to find viable solutions.They have found some with astonishing results.



I do not think the ambition of the average EU citizen today restrains to have a home to rent and enough to eat.

Ok - I take your point about the rumours. Until they are substantiated they are of no real importance.



The point is that China is in the process of becoming the worlds leading economy. In my opinion, in another 10 or 15 years this will be widely acknowledged and the yuan will be the currency of choice, especially with regard to the pricing of oil. This will have further negative consequences for the American economy and wil devalue the dollar even further.



The American economy (even though Wall Street may see it differently) is totally dependent on consumer spending. A huge portion of this consuming is done on credit. Essentially, Americans have been buying things they dont need with money they dont own. Im sure you are aware of the credit crunch which is strangling the availability of such credit at the moment not just in America but worldwide. In such circumstances Americans can no longer afford to keep buying such items. If however, the Chinese and Indian economies continue to grow at current rates, they will have a much higher domestic market due to the higher levels of wealth in those countries and so will be les dependent on American consumers. The huge increases in the prices of commodities such as grain etc over the past couple of years is due to a movement away from the consumption of just rice in these countries. Basically Indians and especially Chinese are wealthier and are consuming more. The same happened in Europe and America in the last centuries.



Im not too sure I understand



The fact is that they cant. If we want to continue to live the way we live in Europe, we must find alternatives to competition on price in the manufacture of cheap goods. The Asians have a competitive advantage with which we cannot compete. I would not include American goods in that category. They are relatively cheap only because of the weak dollar. In reality, American corporations have exported most of their real jobs to cheaper economies.

IMO the only way to compete would be to invest in research and innovation. For example, what about alternative energy sources which could be harnessed to lessen our reliance on imported oil? Of course, the problem with that would be that the so called "free-market" advocates within the financial world would never allow it because they would stand to lose so much if the oil industry suffered any set back. Why do we not have electrically powered cars yet? Why do we not use the Atlantic Ocean, our greatest natural resource or wind power of which we have plenty, to creat alternatives to an oil dependency which just helps to enrich elites in Arabia and Wall Street?

The truth is that free market consumer capitalism cannot function if people are educated. Educated people will not feel the need to waste money on branded items they dont need. If people save money rather than spend or invest, "growth" cannot be achieved and the system collapses - as is happening in the financial world at the moment.



Inflation can destroy an economy and a country if left unchecked. One of the causes of Hitler rise to power was Weimar Germany's hyper-inflation induced collapse. Mugabe's Zimbabwe currently suffers from something similar. I think something similar may have happened post-communism in Russia and Eastern Europe but maybe you can educate me on that front. The point being that inflation inducing cheap money helps the stock market investors but hurts the ordinary people who can buy less with their dollar/euro/zloty. Yes it makes it easier for them to get loans but when uneducated people are provided with the opportunity for cheap and easy money the result is a foregone conclusion. Many seem not to be aware that some day they will have to pay it back.

You have also spoken about investment. Why would a company invest in a country with high inflation and by effect high costs ie wage inflation, house price inflation, food inflation etc etc ? Quite simply, they wont. Inflation is what causes high costs. Thats why they are leaving the west for cheaper economies. And that is why the Fed are responsible for killing the American economy. Not the Wall Street elitist economy but the real economy in the real world. And that is why I support the ECB stance because they are attempting to maintain some level of competitiveness in Europe.



Yes. You are right and I agree. However, my point was to draw a comparison between the living standards of the poorest of Europe, most of whom have home and food, with the plight of the Americans highlighted in the youtube link which I provided earlier. If that is what happens to ordinary working people while Wall Street Bankers make millions because of Fed policy, I will choose the ECB

Now USA consumes 40% of world's oil.Do you think it will change in the next decade?Who determines the currency of paying if not the seller and the buyer?
Furthermore Yuan is fixed artificially to have such a low value.If it is left to take its natural value,it will rapidly increase in value harming chinese exports.If the dollar is devalued,Yuan is also devalued.Why should the chinese have interest in keeping devaluated Yuans instead of equally devaluated dollars?



As always.Consumer spending drives the economy,the demand for goods.What should drive it instead of that?



You mean nobody gives credit to Americans?



Asians are sly,they do not see things the same way.All these things,consumption and savements have different meanings for them.



Europe can compete doing what it does.Using cheap labour from Eastern Europe,millions of illegal immigrants who are nowhere listed and pressing people to work more hours than the ones they are paid for,all this for the ''good of the nation'' etc.The point is how long can you have people agreeing with that especially when they see another alternative.



The game of innovations and research is already lost.Americans are far ahead to be reached due to their heavy research funding and brain drain.



I think the truth is that free market consumer capitalism cannot work if some people in the top who gvern decide what the needs are and what should be consumed and what not.When they decide that people make irrtional decisions and so they have to protect them from their harming freedom,then free market capitalism does not work because it is no longer competitive free market capitalism but designed model.

The E.U is splendid for the Poles who have never had it so good! It might not happen even in my life time but there will come a time when the British people will be scratching at the door of Europe to get out. I never voted for the U.K. to be in Europe and never wanted it. Now, we are beginning to see the consequences of our own actions. Another ten years of hell and we will be bankrupt.

Nope, Bush started this (2002). Republican Party lost its way in the sea of populism. I have watched Republican debate in SC and remember Ron Paul stating that Republicans doubled the size of Department of Education. In the past they were against such department at all.




Better they would left the money in people pockets, they know better how to spend it than any government.

I agree with you about Europe. Unfortunately Americans seems to tend to follow Europe, especially Democrats.



I agree but the point is that global capitalism (anti-state concept) have little support among masses in opposition to socialism. Thus socialism is far more dangerous.



I don't know much about Ireland. It also depends from competition, whether politicians blocking concessions for such activity. In Poland we had the highest price in Europe of telephone calls. Their internet provider offer is poor as well. Company was "privatized"
by French state owned company.

Railways are state owned and in pathetic shape. They just would like to be subsidized by government over and over.




Even inside of the EU you have export limits, production quotas and millions of "quality improving" regulations. We could export cheap food let say from Africa but bureaucracy bribed farmers and imposed high import tariffs. They spend about half of the EU budget to subside agriculture, completely insane idea.

Yes - it is already changing. Asian countries are developing very quickly and as a result, they are consuming more and more oil. This trend will continue over the next decade.



You are actually agreeing with me. Yes, the Yuan must eventually be allowed to take it real value. However, the Chinese will attempt to ensure that their economy is well developed before that happens. As they are massive consumers of US Government bonds (on which the American economy is overly reliant), an increase in the value of the Yuan would force a massive loss of income in the US with possibly terminal effects.

As you yourself say -



While I wouldnt couch it in those terms, I agree that the Chinese Government's ultimate motivation is not to engage in trade but to replace America as the worlds leading power. While I am not in favour of this I believe that they are closer to doing so than many ordinary people in the west realise.



I agree that spending money and consuming goods and services is good for the economy.

However, the point about current consumption levels in many western countries, and the USA in particular, is that the money used to consume these goods and services is borrowed. Therefore, it must be paid back. That means it is a false economy producing false wealth. A real economy is based on trade, and in particular, exporting more than you import. You then consume with the profits. America no longer makes a profit. Therefore it is living on borrowed time. Literally.



That is the definiton of the "free-market" ie free movement of goods and services across borders. Are you against the "free-market" and "competition" ??;)



You obviously know more about these innovations than me and I would like to hear about them because it is something which I am interested in. However, it does not mean that we should not attempt to use the resources which we have in Europe to increase efficiencies. As I said above alternative fuels would be a good start and would make European industry more competitive when it competes with oil based economies.



As a Pole (I presume you are Polish), I understand your sentiments with regard to any form of State interference in the economy given your country's history. However, we have a phrase in Ireland "you dont throw the baby out with the bathwater". In other words, because something was bad in general terms ie communism, it does not necessarily mean that the other extreme of the spectrum is good. Indoctrination exists in many forms and is not simply a tool of Governments. Much private sector advertising, for example, could be described as a form of indoctrination, especially when aimed at children. There is a whole industry devoted to that practice amongst "free-market" corporations, many of whom studied the methods of the greatest propagandists such as Stalin and Hitler in devising their own material.

My point would be that much of what passes for education and comment in the "free" world has become no more than a form of controlling propaganda in favour of what it (and it alone) calls "freedom". In other words, if you're idea of freedom is different, you are not free to live that way!
I would imagine that one of the reasons that most Poles are so anti State controlled enterprises was because communism was an unelected and unanswerable machine which did not allow the citizens of the country any say in its functions. Can you not see any similarity between that and providing unelected corporations and business leaders with the unregulated and unlimited right to control the trade and the provision of services in democratic countries? Under democracy Government are answerable to the people in the form of elections. Who are the "free-market" business advocates answerable to??

I live in S. California, and the tent city is near my aunt's home.

First of all, I believe America has been in a full blown recession for a few years. The dropping of federal interest rates, real estate agents encouraging applicants to lie about what they make, so they can afford an over-inflated home, twice what it was just 5 years ago! THAT in itself, said something was going bad, very badly. I am having a hard time for people who fell for it, and spent beyond what they had, and the ARMS. I didn't purchase a home then, as I felt it was a bad time - despite my half-brother saying I was a fool in front of mom, who laughs with me, now that I didn't snatch up homes to flip with him! Told the fool, he was wrong...and the bottom may keep falling for 3 more years, until it stabilizes. But then, perhaps the Baby Boomers are finally retiring, and ditching the homes they caused to become over-inflated back in the 1970s, yadda-yadda-yadda. They aren't going to sell for what they thought they would. Those who sold in 2005 are the only winners I really know, at the peak of the breaking bubble.

And yes; I call it a Depression! There have been 'For Sale' signs in many neighborhoods around me, with the same homes up for over a year now. The fat cat banks thought they were going to make a killing out here, and are now in major trouble, since many owners STRIPPED the homes of even the kitchen sink, as they were being foreclosed upon!

Next, in California, we do use many Windmills in the deserts, especially near Palm Springs. We have good terrain for it, provided construction comes to a halt - wait, oh, it has.

We purchase Hybrid cars in California, which use both gas and electricity. You wouldn't recognize most of them, but Toyota and Honda and now GMC make full sized cars with that setup.

But then, the Federal Govt. doesn't like S. CA, and now the state is sooo desperate for people, I saw the first commercial run by our Guvernator, to come to California, and work here!

Right...where all you can find, even with a Master's Degree, a minimum wage job, $8 an hour. Taking into account for inflation, that is disproportionately higher than should be, this is much LESS than I made as a teenager working with a subcontractor building homes during the summer in the Midwest! I could purchase much more with $5, than you can with $8 today.

It's a mixed bag of tricks. Too far left, too far right, isn't good for Poland. Joining the EU gave Poland benefits, but she is also able to depart if she so wishes. I think it was a good idea, for the moment.

Hello JuliePotocka - sad to hear about the situation in S. California. We're heading down the same road here in Ireland, Id say about a year to 18 months behind the curve in the States. However, we're in probably more trouble because we have ceded our capability to lower interest rates to the ECB. Our economic cycle is out of sync with the Germans and French and we will suffer as a result.

While joining the EU would appear to have been of benefit thus far for Poland, IMO Poles should stay out of the EMU - follow the British example and retain real sovereignty or else end up having their economy run for the benefit of Germany/France.

I read an articel today that said European tourists are coming to America and buying Timberlands out the wazoo...made me laugh, considering I get a discount on them so I pay as much as our visiting friends :]


A lot of people from Europe have been coming to America lately, and chanign Euros into dollars and getting almost $1.80 per 1 Euro. The shift in power happened so fast....

Deise, I concur; stay out of the EMU, and retain real sovereignty. I would be royally ticked, if the economy wound up being run for the benefit of other countries, after all Poland's been through!

No, definitely, EU isn`t good for Slavic Poland, same way how it isn`t good for Slavic Serbia.

Pozdrav braćo!

Crow - EMU and EU are not the same!

Not yet, only because some still have objections.