EU vs Russia war - who would win?

Yes, isn't that cowardly......... Merkel is brave enough to stand up to China, yet too afraid to stand up to Russia..... I thought this is NATO, why should Russia hold sway over NATO decisions.....



This is my personal opinion but it just has that feeling to it.... It seems Germany goes out of it's way to embarrass the US or disagree with the US.... US complained of Germany's contribution to Afghanistan and Germany made a big stink about it... Truth is Germany is not pulling it's weight in Afghanistan.... Germany is in NATO, they should contribute equally and not expect others to pull all the weight...

I already suggested the answer in regards to Germany.

France is a weird country anyway. They are like a teenage girl. She'd like like it but her mom told her no boy around is worth it.

First, they are not NATO members right now. Second, if they will want to be in NATO again, and their application/admission coincides in time with that of Ukraine, France's position would be overshadowed by a huge expansion of NATO in the East, right under the big red noses of the Russkies.

While technology is certainly critical, Ukraine offers a huge increase in the number of ground troops that the West is simply unable to provide.

And that most Ukrainians doesn't want to become members should count for nothing?

It's about "sensitive spheres". Of course the US would want the NATO to grow till to the russian borders...regardless how the russians might feel...we europeans, living side by side with them ought to be a bit more considerate than that.
Would the US like russian bases in...say...Mexico and Canada???

If a NATO membership of Ukraine or Georgia is only seen as a punch against Russia then Germany is right to decline it!



Hmm...as far as I know american-german difficulties started with Mr. Bush's war on terror.
There we disagreed!
And it was the White House trying to split Europe to make it easier for them, resorting to ungentlemanlike
measures to bully their allies into helping them.
Germany wasn't to be bullied!
Now it seems Germany was right...
But still Germany is helping how she can (short of invading countries).
Now the leaders of both countries even like to give each other back rubs!

Mind you....I think the relationship is quite normal again...:)

Ukraine government does, I think they know much better than some average joe on the street what is best for the security of the country... Truth is that Ukranian public thinks with their emotions but when it comes to security you have to use logic...



what's Russia going to do??? what are we so afraid of????



umm, no but the US doesn't threaten countries with nukes when they dont have their way, doesn't use gas to influence the policy of other countries.... on the other hand Russia does.... You can't deny that Russia has been acting aggresively in Europe.



No, those countries want to join...... What is this German love of Russia..... who are your partners NATO which majority support Ukraine and Georgia or Russia.... you can't have your cake and eat it too....



Germany wasn't right, as I recall Germany had several terror plots in their country..... US wasn't the bullies, eastern EU supported US and wasn't forced into it.... As I recall it was Chiraq then allied with Schroedar who said eastern EU missed a good opportunity to shut up.... whose the bully, I ask????

Oh really!
Always like you need it, don't you? :)



Being considerate doesn't mean "fear" or being "cowardly"...in my opinon Nato membership for Ukraine or Georgia is as unnecessary as the missile shield for Poland. So why do it?



Germany was right!
Or do you think the invasion of Iraq helped fight the terrorists in any way?

And yes...remember Rumsfeld's "old" Europe against "new" Europe? The mud fest? With allied leaders not even speaking with each other anymore? All forgotten???
Germany was bullied all the time...and it was till yesterday bullied to send more troops and more this and more that (Today Bush said it's over....no demands anymore..we will see)

PS: What did get Eastern Europe from the US for sacrificing their soldiers?

lol, : ) no but seriously, who you think has more knowledge about the security of a country, some average joe or military experts who have inside and direct knowledge of what is happening behind the scenes....



It's not necessary for Nato(which it is because we need the ground troops as Dariuz pointed out) and it's necessary for those countries to feel safer....



what's wrong with a defensive weapon...... we discussed this before..... Once Germany get's rid of their patriot missles then it can take the moral high ground....
Germany has those defenses because they see some sort of threat, not saying it's Russia(which it probably is) why can't Poland have those defenses...



This happened after Chiraq made that comment...... So the US did not start the mud fest....



what???? the $20 billion missle package, and they were repaying US for their help in supporting solidarity which helped topple communism...

Nope...Germany doesn't has enemies and doesn't feel threatened.

The only attack will come from some islamic nutter with a grenade belt...and then even the biggest missile shield won't help.

Screw the patriots....you want them? :)

I highly doubt that, then why have such a huge military, it's much bigger then necessary to handle a few nutters..



true, but just because the nutters are the only threat today, doesn't mean in twenty years their won't be a new threat.... like let's say from an actual country



lmao, sure I'll take them....... : ) do I have to pay shipping and handling???

If it will make Ukraine and Georgia feel safer and bring them peace of mind, I dont see why not we should help them..... Clearly these countries will join the EU sooner or later.... It's not like Russia is ever going to join..... those countries should hold our allegiance....

Better yet, it's totally unable to handle such a war against lone terrorists. No big army can do that!
I firmly believe the wars of the last centuries are over and won't come back.
To handle actual threats you need small, highly trained and specialized attack groups, commandos who hunt and take out the enemy...not bombarding and destroying whole towns! Terrorizing people who are actually your allies....making new enemies on the way...

For me the Bundeswehr is not much more than an employment program and a way to test our newly developed arms...now the GSG 9 or our KSK...that's another matter alltogether! :)



I doubt it will bring them peace of mind if the actual majority just doesn't want to.



Why not?
Sometime in the future?

:)



Why should Germany admit them if, as you say, they can't await to gang up on Germany....Why should we set ourself such a louse (read Bloodsucker) in the pelt?

I agree, you can't argue with that........



i hope your right, but I have to disagree with that.... I still see a possibility.... a small posibility but large enough to be prepared just in case... better safe than sorry...



to be honest, to the best of my recollection the citizens of Georgia do support NATO, however will seperatist movements I can see the hesitation of NATO... However to me Ukraine is a differant story and their is no good reason not to bring them into the fold..... First of all it's just a MAP and not like Ukraine will be joining tommorrow..... By then Ukrainian public support should increase....... NATO has been demonized throughout the whole cold war and that is why the public is so hesitant.... We need to send a positive signal to Ukraine and let them know we want them to join..denying them now can turn Ukraine away... Plus refusing Ukraine just shows Russia that they can continue to use threats to get effective results....

Help me out here Matty...which threats did Russia make actually...I can't remember reading about them...

Russia says it will aim nukes at Ukraine.....

Hmmm....



So why start all that unnessecary, but scary tohuwabohu....

threatening a country with nukes over a defensive weapon....... this shield does not prevent Russia from attacking the US.... Russia has 2000 nukes compared to what 30 missles once all the shields are complete, not to mention that Russian missles will go over the north pole to attack US and not across Europe...

Its Russia making a fuss just to make a fuss to scare NATO and it seems to be working..... Tell me how 30 missles are a threat against 2000 nukes????

Listen if the US was installing nukes in Poland than I would be with you on this... but their not.....

I tell ya these confrontations with Russia are absolutely unnessecary and I can actually understand their position...the US would not like that either if they were in Russias position...it's abit bigotted actually.

Europe does't need another cold war...we have other problems! (China, religious nutters etc)

Maybe we should just agree to disagree, okay?

URL

Russia doesn't have many friends for a reason..... Also if Russia was installing a missle shield in Cuba I doubt America would care.... As long as the missles are defensive......



it's true....... but we can't let Russia run the show........ EU is much more powerful economically and politically.... combined with the US more powerful militarily..... it's EU that should be calling the shots and not Russia.....



yeah undertandable seein as we can talk for days and we would still have the same conclusion....... : )

Ahem...*cough, cough*...that I highly doubt that the US would allow that!



If done without real reason, just because "we can", then it's not much more than bullying!
Better being diplomatic...it's more successfull in the long run!



We will see what the future brings, yes? :)

Naw, seriously it didn't make a huge stink when Russia sold air defenses to Iran.... and in the eyes of US... Iran is a much bigger threat than Cuba....



I like the German approach but when it comes to Russian diplomacy it doesn't work... Russians only understand power.... that is the sole reason Putin was elected..... Russians don't care if democracy is being rolled back as long as Putin projects power.....



good compromise, how diplomatic of you : )...... hopefully we'll both be on this forum in 5 to 10 years and remember this conversation..... anyways, yes......

and I know your probably going to want to respond to the first two statements.... so after that like you said..... let's wait and see.....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0401/p09s01-coop.html?page=2

Descent opinion piece about how Nato should react to Russia....

We all would lose.

Just that this kind of subject is even opened and discussed makes me sick in the stomach.

Pay attention, that subject is long over...... Start reading the posts, so you know what were talked about.....



Really? thats funny because Genocide doesn't seem to bother you at all...... judging by your posts about Serbia....



http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=57535

WTF???? why are we explaining ourselves to these two fruitcakes....

In which the Zionist Owned Government of USA is implicated by actively sponsoring and being a direct accomplice.

CRUCIFIED KOSOVO

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This is the elementary problem with education level in America, proffesors instead of teaching students how to think for themselves, they are teaching them to memorize what they were taught. Then you cannot be surprised that they do not ask questions when they are being sent like cattle into the Iraqi slaughterhouse to fight in an illegal - unjustified war for Israel.

This is the elementary problem with education level in America, proffesors instead of teaching students how to think for themselves, they are teaching them to memorize what they were taught. Then you cannot be surprised that they do not ask questions when they are being sent like cattle into the Iraqi slaughterhouse to fight in an illeagal - unjustified war. </div>

Illegal, just shows to tell you that your the one who is spoonfed information without seeing the truth.... The war is under a UN resolution making it legal.... As far as unjustified( I guess Saddam committing genocide doesnt bother you)... why should it, it doesn't bother you that it happened in Serbia.... Also why are you showing me those maps... Both Serbia and the KLA are equally responsible for all those deaths...

Also what the hell do you know about education in the US.... I do I was educated here... Let me show you an article who is the one who spoonfeeds their children. What you see in this article would never happen in the states.... Politics is not discussed in the classroom...

khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/]http://www .khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/ 2008/March/theworld_March1319.xml&section=theworld


http://www.eurasianhome.org/xml/t/expert.xml?lang=en&nic=expert&pid=14 91&qmonth=0&qyear=0

good article about NATO and that Russia should back off it's rhetoric....

Cuban missile crisis in 1962. Many think that was the closest US and USSR came to nuclear war.

Right now the Russians need a little space between themselves and NATO countries. In twenty-five years, however, they will pushing for membership in Nato because the threat they will have from China wanting to take over Siberian resources.

Oh my boy, as you remember, once Russians already crushed Chineese forces in the battle for island Domanskiy on Amur river.

Presume you mean the 1969 battle, near Damanski/Chenpao Island on the Ussuri River. You may have won the battle , but you ended up giving the island to China. Russia and China "resolved" their border issues in 2004.

What are there, about 10 million Russians living Russia Far East along the border with China compared to 90 million Chinese? The Chinese ooze over your border there almost like the Mexicans in the US. A few years down the road, you'll have 12 million Russians and 22 million Chinese living in Russia Far East.

China will then reassert its historical claim the Russia stole these lands in the 1600s, and the conflict will start all over. (Look at how they are moving into Tibet with ethic Chinese. A few years, the Tibetans will be a minority in their country.) Chinese troops will cross the border to "protect" ethnic Chinese living in southern Siberia. After a somewhat bloody conflict, a ceasefire line will be drawn giving the Chinese a big chunk of Siberia.

Why that's impossible you say. Really? Who has piles of euros and dollars and yen? OPEC countries and China. Who has all the factories? China.

Who has the people? Russia: 141,377,752. China: 1,321,851,888. Looks like you're outnumbered about 10:1. Would be same on number of available troops. Do you still just one east-west rail line between Siberia and the east? Plus your supply line is 4 times as long the Chinese?

brate, before echoes of Kosovo situation resolve (on behalf of Serbians) stop to flow, Russians would be proud Sarmatians, again. Rusi would accept call of Rašani.

What then?

I will tell you what then. Belgrade would be center of something beautiful, of land of green and land of free. Center of resistance and awaken Slavdom. Our call on Slavic Alliance would be irresistable. All trecherous Slavic governmants would just fall on streets of Slavia

What are you smoking, man?



If you think Poland, the Czech republic, etc. will ever look to Serbia for leadership and salvation, you have got to be smoking some powerful stuff. What kind of mushrooms do you grow in Serbia?

Thats beautiful. What colour is the sky in your world?

Thick smoke with a heavy smell of maryjane.