Asian community in Poland

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Sep 21, 07, 15:44 #31

On this subject i think Poland should look nowhere else accept from the UK. The amount of people we have had come to our country of our size is astronomical. I feel personally that we are overcrowded and over populated and that there are thousands if not millions of people here who simply do not deserve or are needed here.

its ok having an immigration system and it may in the short term be a good thing for Poland to have an influx of workers. However with a lot of Poles leaving Poland you have to be careful that people don't sneak in the back door while your not at home :)

one of the things i love about Poland is that its stacked full of Polish people and is not over run to the extent of the UK with foreign migrants.

zorribleThreads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Sep 16, 07 ♀	Sep 22, 07, 00:31 #32
There are plenty of Koreans and Japanese people in Wroclaw. It's all due to the LG and other plants expanding their businesses in that region.

PuzzlerThreads: 11 Posts: 1,613 Joined: Mar 21, 07 ♂	Sep 22, 07, 04:17 #33
re: Just wondering is there an asian community in Poland - There are scores of Vietnamese in Warszawa. Not guest workers; they're there to stay. I wish they didn't; I wish Poland were Poland, and Europe Europe.

PuzzlerThreads: 11 Posts: 1,613 Joined: Mar 21, 07 ♂	Sep 22, 07, 04:22 #34
Tornado, you've got on - wherever else? - the BBC TV a programme called 'Asian Nation' (meaning that Asiatics are a separate nation in the UK?).

PuzzlerThreads: 11 Posts: 1,613 Joined: Mar 21, 07 ♂	Sep 22, 07, 04:29 #35
I don't mind folks from Europe coming to Poland for work and even permanent settlement. Well, perhaps I would be scared of Russians, because experience in other countries (e.g. the Baltics) shows that where they settle they start treating the country as part of Muscovy. I don't mind folks from Asia coming as guest workers, but I mind if they wish to settle permanently.

GosiaaThreads: 5 Posts: 96 Joined: Aug 18, 07 ♀	Sep 22, 07, 05:47 #36
Just to clear something up do you know that Indians are Asians ! India is in Asia.

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,814 Joined: May 9, 07 ♂	Sep 22, 07, 08:10 #37
Asians, generally are good workers ;) There's a lack of workers in Poland, i think this immigration could help the country economy...

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Sep 22, 07, 09:40 #38

Quoting: Pawel

Trust me we dont need the Indians in Poland they started migrating in Aus now theres to many. The same will happen in Poland...

Actually, I work Indians in Poland, Bollywood organizations in Poland and with the Indian association of Poland and there is nothing wrong with it or with them. A lot of people in Poland enjoy the mixture of Poland-Indian culture. And a lot of Indians do the same. I think it is wonderful to have this available in Poland. A lot of Polish people are also mixing with Indians. With so many people who are Polish leaving Poland for other countries, then we should appreciate that so many people from other countries move to Poland and move because they fall in love with Polish people, culture and land. They become part Polish, and judgment on people of only phycial regard is probably termed racist. If they feel they belong to Poland, and their life is better for them in Poland, they contribute to Poland positively, then let them do it. The same rules apply for every human being.

Quoting: Tran Anh

In future, if Polish speak Indian, that is disastrous!!! Though a nice dream does happen when they speak Esperanto or any international non-national language.

Why is it a disastour? I don't understand why you think it is so terrible for Polish people to learn languages other than European? Poland is among one of the most intelligent peoples in the world, at least in Europe. Especially in IT and New Communications. Indians are also among one of the most intelligent. Both nations are hard-working and generally do think of education first. So what's the problem, we have a lot of things in commong that you didn't even know about.

By the way - Indians have several official national languages but the main one you *might* be referring to is called "HINDI". However there's several - Pubjabi, Tamil, Telugu, Gujarati, Urdu, Marathi... to name the few of them.

♂

Sep 22, 07, 16:26 #39

re: With so many people who are Polish leaving Poland for other countries, then we should appreciate that so many people from other countries move to Poland

- Hm, do many Poles move to India? And if Poles move to, say, UK, why on earth should they appreciate Indians and similar folks moving to Poland? I'd think the Poles should rather appreciate folks from countries the Poles move to.

Well, and so you and whomever else you mean by the term 'we,' may appreciate Indians and other Asians moving to Poland, but allow me and those like me (the majority of Poles) not to be enthusiastic about such immigration.

PuzzlerThreads: 11 Posts: 1,613 Joined: Mar 21, 07 ♂	Sep 22, 07, 16:30 #40
re and judgment on people of only phycial regard is probably termed racist - I've met with Indian racism, including brutal beatings, frequently while living in Canada, where, just as in UK, there is an enormous Indian population. I wonder if from the heights of your yoga altered states you are able to see (in India) the Indian paranoid hatred of Christians?

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Sep 23, 07, 05:02 #41

Quoting: Puzzler

I wonder if from the heights of your yoga altered states you are able to see (in India) the Indian paranoid hatred of Christians?

Puzzler, you should realize there are more oppions and views to the world and to Polish people than what you think. I am also Polish. And yes, there are a minority of Polish in India - a lot them are half Indian/Half Polish and do life for a temorary time at the very least.

Just as "appreciation" of Indians in Poland - it is in the sense of appreciation, or perhaps more ACCEPTING ANYONE who wants to 1. Be in Poland to better their lives 2. Contribute to Poland as we have a beautiful country 3. Represent Poland to their country as being a wonderful country.

The third point is a indirect form of "advertisement" which contributes to many ways, temorparily, in favor of Poland - more tourism, more exchange/international students, more work available for Polish to be able to go overseas and experience both Poland and any other country (could be exchange, could be international company, etc).

I never said there was NO problems - because lots of conflict does always seem to arise with immigrations. But what I am trying to point out is that Poland is not going to be over-taken by Indians, just because there is an increase of Indian nationalities traveling to Poland for numerous reasons.

As for your comment from my "heights of yoga altered states" - well, at least my life is in balance. At least I don't hate anyone. At least I try to over come what is bad with something good. At least I try to stay optimistic. At least I contribute to Poland in a good way and at least I can represent what is the better part of being from Poland while in India, and represent the better part of India to Poland.

I hope for you, that you may realize perhaps a bit of these "altered states". You cannot control the world, things will happen whether you like it or not.

By the way - Indians are not paranoid or hating of Christians. A rather large minority in India is christian. If there is anyone paranoia it is towards the ones who are Muslim and this usually comes from the ones who are Hindu (and of course it is not everyone, it is a generalization).

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Sep 23, 07, 05:06 #42

Quoting: Puzzler

I've met with Indian racism, including brutal beatings, frequently while living in Canada, where, just as in UK, there is an enormous Indian population.

Yes and also I met with the Polish racism too - Don't think our own nation doesn't contain people who are bad, with a racist and terrible out look on life. Everywhere there are bad people - there is no perfect country, nowhere.

And for part of my family living in the UK - they are glad there is a large indian population of indians - as at first their complaints were pretty big about the UK after moving from Poland that it was Indian culture and Indian food in UK that made them feel a little bit more welcome to UK and then able to get used to living in UK.

♂

Sep 23, 07, 19:11 #43

re: I hope for you, that you may realize perhaps a bit of these "altered states"

- Can you tell who has and who hasn't had the realisation in question? How?

re: You cannot control the world, things will happen whether you like it or not

- I certainly don't have any desire to 'control the world;' perhaps it's you who have one and are projecting it on me? In spite of your professed lack of agression, your posts seem to reveal some of it lurking underneath. And contrary to what you assert, some things we have influence upon; we don't have to remain passive towards them (doesn't Patanjali, rajayoga say the same stuff?). One of them is certainly immigration. I don't want Poland to become a 'multiculti' mess, such as I've seen in e.g. US, Canada, and recently UK. And just as I don't think it right for Poles to go en masse to another country for permanent settlement, I don't think it right for others, especially non-Europeans, to do the same in respect to Poland.

re: By the way - Indians are not paranoid or hating of Christians

- I've never stated that all Indians are 'paranoid.' I've only said that there's paranoid hatred of Christians in India (there's no such thing in Poland, apart, perhaps, from commiefascists' traditional hatred of Christianity; nor there is any hatred in Poland against Hinduism or Islam).

re: Yes and also I met with the Polish racism too

- Well, if so, then wouldn't it be a good reason for some not to move over to Poland?

♂

Edited by: Puzzler Sep 23, 07, 19:55 #44

Iskra, I've read what I scribbled and it occurs to me my scribbling may appear pretty unfriendly. It wasn't my intention to be unfriendly towards Indians (or Asians in general). I should add to my post: I don't mind some Asian people moving over and living in Poland, but not huge crowds of them. I think that any honest and patriotic Asian person should agree with me on that. I've met quite a few people of Polish and Asian descent and I have only brotherly feelings for them (as long as they don't try to forcefully impose the non-Polish culture and values on me).

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Sep 23, 07, 22:34 #45

Quoting: Puzzler

Iskra, I've read what I scribbled and it occurs to me my scribbling may appear pretty unfriendly. It wasn't my intention to be unfriendly towards Indians (or Asians in general). I should add to my post: I don't mind some Asian people moving over and living in Poland, but not huge crowds of them. I think that any honest and patriotic Asian person should agree with me on that. I've met quite a few people of Polish and Asian descent and I have only brotherly feelings for them (as long as they don't try to forcefully impose the non-Polish culture and values on me).

Yes, well your scraps did appear unfriendly and in a sense as if you were trying to provoke me to say something to continue lighting the flame of an arguement.

It seemed as if you were completly against people from asia moving to Poland.

I can agree - I too would not want Poland to become a second asia or India to become a second Poland. Indians wouldn't want that - look what India has had to deal with britishers, and other invadors constantly tryingto take over the rule of India. Look at what has happened, the uncomfortable feelings that have occured due to it.

I simply saying, a minority of Indians in Poland only add interest, and boost tourism terms and international company opportunies. Adds opportinies for people of poland to discover other parts of the world, and gives opportunity for people in other parts of the world to discover Poland.

Obviously there needs be be a large majority of native in a country to make the country stand out for others. Indians immigrate to UK, AUS, US, because they know other Indians are there - which means they don't have to feel so much away from home. I guess with Polonia it is the same thing. And All I am saying the world can be an internaltional - multi cultural world without creating messes. However to do this a country must contain its own national identity first, and minorty identites second.

I am glad to hear you have brotherly feelings for multi-ethnic/polish peoples as - at the end of the day they are still Polish with additional elements.

Quoting: Puzzler

In spite of your professed lack of agression, your posts seem to reveal some of it lurking underneath

Comments like this are especially unfriendly. It is all about controlling yourself. This is perhaps where yoga helps to realize to not contain a self-ego but rather a universal ego.

I see your opinion. I am human too and ofcourse I also have an ego - however I tend to try see several points of view. I also hear what Indians in Poland say. And how their hearts are so in love with Poland, the culture, that although they are Indian they also feel Poland as their second home.

But in terms of my agression - I am pretty good at listening and advising first. I dont get agressive unless I am in some strange situation where it is needed. Emotions used where appropriate are only worth it. I have no agression towards you, only was trying to understand why you felt so agressive towards asians. I felt it almost is it was racism. And that did hurt a little as I am linked to Asia as well as Europe. I cannot understand "hate" as I try to see what is good in everyone.

♂

Edited by: Puzzler Sep 23, 07, 22:49 #46

re: look what India has had to deal with britishers, and other invadors

- Hm, and now crowds of Indians come over to and live in Britain, among those naughty 'britishers' (sic).

And India is part of the Brit Commonwealth, and Indians are very proud and boastful of it, aren't they? Many of those I have met all had the attitude that may be expressed as: 'Who are you compared to me? You're only Polish, and I belong to the British Commonwealth!'
:)

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Sep 24, 07, 03:33 #47

Quoting: Puzzler

re: look what India has had to deal with britishers, and other invadors

- Hm, and now crowds of Indians come over to and live in Britain, among those naughty 'britishers' (sic).

And India is part of the Brit Commonwealth, and Indians are very proud and boastful of it, aren't they? Many of those I have met all had the attitude that may be expressed as: 'Who are you compared to me? You're only Polish, and I belong to the British Commonwealth!'
:)

I don't know who you have met. There are many different groups of mentalities. Many of the people I know from India, have a thing against the UK and often even make fun of Britishers. But these are the people who don't want to go there.

Then I also know of a couple, who are mad about anything from "London" and "uk" and have the attitude you describe. But then so many Polish also have similar attitude "I am now in the UK, you are only in Poland - I am better than you" - this type of attitude. Again they is only some people,

since my family in UK don't like living there and regret moving there.

So... what does this all me - it means there is everyone who has all kinds of opinions.

And in my emotions - I am Polish, more proud to be this than to be British, American, Australia or whatever because it is who I am (just because I feel pride for my country).

And if a Polish wants to be a proud British - then it's their issue, if they feel it, then they feel it.

Lady in red

Sep 24, 07, 07:16 #48

Quoting: Puzzler

'Who are you compared to me? You're only Polish, and I belong to the British Commonwealth!':)

That sounds like quite an old fashioned stereotype view in my book Puzzler.

I'm not sure most people,I know, would agree with you and I think it's a great combination having two totally different cultures that you can embrace.

I really don't think it's fair to ask Iskra to keep defending her heritage. She's proud of it and rightly so and is Polish as well :)

Welcome to PF Iskra <s>

IskraThreads: 1 Posts: 49 Joined: Sep 14, 07 ♀	Sep 24, 07, 07:22 #49
Quoting: Lady in red Welcome to PF Iskra Thank you :-)

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Sep 24, 07, 10:50 #50

Hey, Red Lady.

Oops, you have made quite an attempt at attacking me, so I'll try to defend myself as well as I can.

re: That sounds like quite an old fashioned stereotype view in my book Puzzler.

- So? What is your point?

re: I'm not sure most people,I know, would agree with you

- So? What is your point here? Perhaps that I'm not telling the truth? If so, how would you prove it?

re: and I think it's a great combination having two totally different cultures that you can embrace

- Have I ever said it's not?

re: I really don't think it's fair to ask Iskra to keep defending her heritage.

- Have I ever asked Iskra to 'defend her heritage'? If yes, then where? Give the quote.

re: She's proud of it and rightly so and is Polish as well :)

- So? What is your point here, and how does it relate to my posts?
:)

♂

Sep 24, 07, 11:00 #51

re: But then so many Polish also have similar attitude "I am now in the UK, you are only in Poland - I am better than you" - this type of attitude.

- Really? I have never met any one like that. And I have done over hundred and fifty interviews with Poles working in Britain and Ireland. Also, I haven't found such attitude on Polish-language websites.

re: since my family in UK don't like living there and regret moving there

- And yes, I have encountered such an attitude quite frequently, especially due to the media psychopaths onslaught against the Poles and caused by it frequent negative perception of us in the UK. Many Poles are leaving UK now, and, I suspect, much more will be leaving in the near future. So that folks from places such as Africa can come to UK, which will satisfy the media psychopaths and those brainwashed by them. There won't be any complaints against them such as they are against the Poles. Way to go, UK.

re: I am Polish, more proud to be this than to be British, American, Australia or whatever

- You are my Polish (and Indian) sister. What else can I say?
:)

Lady in red

Sep 24, 07, 17:05 #52

Quoting: Puzzler

you have made quite an attempt at attacking me

Not sure what you mean Puzzler. Strange words to use 'attacking' and 'defending' :)

I was just writing my views on the subject and you're making it sound like a court of law <s>

Quoting: Puzzler

What is your point?

My point/s is exactly what i wrote in my previous post.

!

Quoting: Puzzler

I'm not sure most people,I know, would agree with you

I neither said nor inferred that you were not telling the truth. I merely disagree with what you have stated.

Quoting: Puzzler

how would you prove it?

I don't have to prove anything, au contraire Puzzler, it's you that may need to provide the proof to substantiate your statements !

Quoting: Puzzler

Have I ever asked Iskra to 'defend her heritage'?

In a roundabout manner yes. That's how I have read a few of your posts. That's been my general impression. I don't need to spend time quoting chapter or verse.

Quoting: Puzzler

your point here, and how does it relate to my posts?

I think I stated my points quite clearly in my message 48 above.

:)

PuzzlerThreads: 11 Posts: 1,613 Joined: Mar 21, 07 ♂	Sep 24, 07, 22:23 #53
Quoting: Lady in red Not sure what you mean Puzzler. Strange words to use 'attacking' and 'defending' :) - Well, and who accused me of forcing Iskra to 'defend her heritage'? The rest of your post is irrelevant replies to my relevant questions.

♂

Sep 25, 07, 17:50 #54

Quoting: Iskra

Why is it a disastour? I don't understand why you think it is so terrible for Polish people to learn languages other than European?

It is not a disaster if Poles learn Indian just like another foreign language. However from what I interpreted from Michal's and Polson's posts, I though the latter favored Indian as a world dominant language out of 'naive liberalism'. I am probably badly mistaken.

Quoting: Iskra

Poland is among one of the most intelligent peoples in the world, at least in Europe. Especially in IT and New Communications. Indians are also among one of the most intelligent. Both nations are hard-working and generally do think of education first. So what's the problem, we have a lot of things in commong that you didn't even know about.

I happen to know something about Poland and a little about India, and CULTURALLY I think Poles are very different from Indians (with the exception of the jet-setting businessman class, who are practically identical all around the world). That Poles are intelligent, IT-well-educated, hardworking (which is a reality) makes no solid ground to your claim that Poland and India have a lot in common (other than to praise yourself inordinately). May be you should enlighten me by making a CLEAR list of things that Poland and India both share (please no more general adjectives like intelligent, honest, honorable, chivalrous... that everyone in the world can claim without a blush!)

Quoting: Puzzler

It wasn't my intention to be unfriendly towards Indians (or Asians in general). I should add to my post: I don't mind some Asian people moving over and living in Poland, but not huge crowds of them. I think that any honest and patriotic Asian person should agree with me on that. I've met quite a few people of Polish and Asian descent and I have only brotherly feelings for them (as long as they don't try to forcefully impose the non-Polish culture and values on me).

Though I believe that it is only possible to judge a person's honesty and patriotism after his death, I have to step through this cloud of unqualification to say that I agree with you. People ought to stay in their homeland to help it to the best of their ability and the more talented they are, the more resistant to the foreign temptation they should be (The age of true internationalism may be too far for a 'reasonable' dream).
However, sometime not necessary out of idealism, but out of simple human feeling, I just wonder how you should react to a kind of people (that is millions of them around the world), who through no fault (or very little ones as any of us) of their own, have to live a horendously miserable life in their own country without any hope of improvement. Immigration is the only way of survival, will you deny them a place in your neighbourhood?

Anyway, the interesting thing is no matter how you feel and react, it is impossible to stop immigration into Europe. The richer a country is, the more morality its politicians have to claim to justify its affluence. As long as some African and Asian countries are disintegrating and still massively reproducing, there are always more and more people will try everything to get to Europe. You try to stop them because you are annoyed (and confused), they come because they need to survive. It is obvious who is going to win. And even when the annoyance turn into fighting for survival, that is already too late. The only way to get out of this vicious circle to make all countries a little more equal, but that may well be a dream too far.

stasiu	Sep 27, 07, 06:17 #55
there is not and wont be in the future

jareck

Sep 27, 07, 06:48 #56

Hi,

Its great to hear opinions of indivudals like pawel and puzzler and finally stasiu... these are very backword ideologies that stem from nationalism and facism, the result of this thought was evident in the last century. In india i have been told there are all the major world religions and many more, there are many languages and dialects, there is money and poverty, there is education and no literacy but one thing there is diversity and if we in poland can appreciate human kind then whatever method is used is good. no one can judge people on their ethnicity. what about murderers and rapists and robbers in USA, some must be of polish descent. what about soem polish guys i have seen in london - a few drinks and what a display. poland is a wonderful place with lots to offer to the world - but not becasue it is Poland, but becasue each and every human works hard to the soemthing - ukrainians, russians, turkish, tartars, catholic, protestant.. the list is continous, poland is the next best thing in europe and people will come here from all over the world, if we get used to this idea then it will be a wonderful place.. god bless

♀

Sep 27, 07, 08:13 #57

Quoting: Tran Anh

I happen to know something about Poland and a little about India, and CULTURALLY I think Poles are very different from Indians (with the exception of the jet-setting businessman class, who are practically identical all around the world). That Poles are intelligent, IT-well-educated, hardworking (which is a reality) makes no solid ground to your claim that Poland and India have a lot in common (other than to praise yourself inordinately). May be you should enlighten me by making a CLEAR list of things that Poland and India both share (please no more general adjectives like intelligent, honest, honorable, chivalrous... that everyone in the world can claim without a blush!)

Well I happen to Know about Poland and India too. But with your harsh statements towards me, I don't even feel like I want to "Challenge" your high words because to me you are just one big smart-ass. And honestly, I can say whatever I like. This forum is open to all of our words and what we think. I dont have to place a base for my comments as my comments are either my oppinions, facts or "words" from other moth. I dont have to go doing homework to research the facts, dates, etc etc - I am a master's student in university, you think I have the time to waste to make smart-ass people like you happy just by stating some facts that will be forgetten tomorrow or next week?

If you're so interested to know more about whatever I say or anyone else, why don't you do the research. The internet is the best information resource you can get so do it yourself.

However stating one oppinion shouldn't be personally attacking someone and from you, this is what I have interprited in your attempt to try and seem so educated as an individual. I can use whatever words I like, I have not been hurting anyone, abusing anyone or doing anything near to the sense attacking in your post. As for these general adjectives describe in the simplest of terms what my message is to get across.

As for culture, I never claimed we are CULTURALLY SO EXACTLY SIMILAR THAT WE ARE BASICALLY TWINS - Did I say that? No!! Not unless you try to twist my words around.
I am Both Polish and Indian. Doesnt matter in which way you put it I am linked to these countries. However there are elements within our cultures that are similar. These are also the same elements that make all humans similar, or different.

But I am a Polish citizen. I am PROUD of my country.

But I am also proud of India and the progress of the relationship between both countries.

I my messages I was simply saying that POLAND and INDIA, and INDIAN CULTURE IN POLAND are really a great team in all aspects of the meaning of "team" - work, friends, play, organization, etc.

I mentioned that I am linked with the Indian association of Poland and several Indian cultural festivals in Poland. I hear the oppinions of Indians/Polish all the time and never have I heard anything bad from either side. Infact, I hear lots of very good comments and both cultures become very much passionate about each and one another.

Whatever your personal opinions are about Indians, Polish or the relations of both, I don't know but next time when you are expressing your opinion why don't you just try to be a little bit more polite.

♀

Sep 27, 07, 08:18 #58

and one more thing - you seem so bitter in your posts. And I don't know if its just because you are a bitter person, because you try to be some big-shot or because you have bad day.

But I am having a bad day and I am not in the mood for posts like this today. I think I have been polite enough, and explained more than enough of my oppinion and please don't try to make me explain more. I didn't come here to make enemies. I came here to join a community of people who are openly here for discussion but it shouldn't be so hateful and really here there are at lot of HATE AND RACIST things being posted. I am not one of the people can be like that, because I do not HATE and and I am multi-ethnic so I am not a racist obviously - on contrary I love all cultures of this world. I have done lots of travels in my life, seen a lot of different culture from a NON TOURISM perspective.

Again I repeat I didn't come here to make enemies but I also didn't come here to contantly have to argue the ground I stand on.

If you have something to say you can always say it in a non-agressive and friendlier form.

♀

Sep 27, 07, 08:20 #59

Quoting: jareck

Hi,

Its great to hear opinions of indivudals like pawel and puzzler and finally stasiu... these are very backword ideologies that stem from nationalism and facism, the result of this thought was evident in the last century. In india i have been told there are all the major world religions and many more, there are many languages and dialects, there is money and poverty, there is education and no literacy but one thing there is diversity and if we in poland can appreciate human kind then whatever method is used is good. no one can judge people on their ethnicity. what about murderers and rapists and robbers in USA, some must be of polish descent. what about soem polish guys i have seen in london - a few drinks and what a display. poland is a wonderful place with lots to offer to the world - but not becasue it is Poland, but becasue each and every human works hard to the soemthing - ukrainians, russians, turkish, tartars, catholic, protestant.. the list is continous, poland is the next best thing in europe and people will come here from all over the world, if we get used to this idea then it will be a wonderful place.. god bless

I agree that every human words hard to make something great. And this is all I was trying to express as part of my messages previously.

Thanks for your friendly outlook and opinion.

PuzzlerThreads: 11 Posts: 1,613 Joined: Mar 21, 07 ♂	Edited by: Puzzler Sep 27, 07, 11:49 #60
Quoting: jareck Hi, Its great to hear opinions of indivudals like pawel and puzzler and finally stasiu... these are very backword ideologies that stem from nationalism and facism, the result of this thought was evident in the last century - Please, give any quote from my posts as evidence of my alleged 'fascist' ideology. Another Polonophobe and commiefascist from Michnik's loonie bin? :)

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