An example of what is wrong with this country (fatal traffic accident and a tram)

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Mar 2, 11, 15:33 #1

Have a look at this photo:

The tram which is stopped in the middle of the picture has just hit and killed an old woman who tried to get off it as it was leaving the stop (her body is slightly to the left of the ambulance). Note how the tram is blocking both lanes of one tram route and one lane of another. Note how it is also causing traffic chaos by completely blocking one lane of a major road in Warsaw (Jana Pawla) and partly blocking the junction between a major N-S route (Jana Pawla) and a major E-W route (Trasa WZ). Note how just for good measure the police have closed a lane of the other side of Trasa WZ.

OK, the death of an old lady is a tragedy, but for the love of god, why for two hours could nobody take the decision to move that tram to where it would have blocked only one lane of a single tram route?!

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Mar 2, 11, 15:39 #2
because its not fekking nigeria and there are certain procedures and protocols that have to be followed in order for any possible negligence trial not to collapse? Simple humanity? Decency over commerce?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Harry Mar 2, 11, 15:48 #3
isthatu2: any possible negligence trial It'll be a bit tricky to try her for negligently trying to get out of a moving tram. isthatu2: Decency over commerce? And what about the greater good?

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Mar 2, 11, 16:03 #4
Harry: OK, the death of an old lady is a tragedy, but for the love of god, why for two hours could nobody take the decision to move that tram to where it would have blocked only one lane of a single tram route?! because the police have to investigate the accident first?

alexw68	Mar 2, 11, 16:07 #5
Harry: And what about the greater good? Translate: Hal's commute to the office was somewhat testing today? Come on chap, have a heart. @puella: Take that stroll. Doctor's orders :)

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Edited by: jonni Mar 2, 11, 16:10 #6

isthatu2:

certain procedures and protocols that have to be followed

They're very strict about that in PL. Cars that have bumped into each other have to sit for ages in the middle of the road in the exact position where the crash happened. At the weekend dead pensioners have to sit in the bus stop for hours freezing solid with a bored policeman for company while they try and find a prosecutor on duty to give permission for them to be moved.

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Edited by: Torq Mar 2, 11, 16:15 #7

Harry:

why for two hours could nobody take the decision to move that tram

Police have to investigate the site first and prepare the preliminary drawing and description
of the accident site. If there is a fatality involved, they have to notify the prosecutor and
an accident expert who will arrive and conduct a detailed examination of the accident site,
involving taking photoes, preparing a detailed description and measuring the site.
Until all that is finished, nothing, and I repeat - nothing, can be moved.

Two hours is really not that bad.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 11, 16:20 #8
alexw68: Translate: Hal's commute to the office was somewhat testing today? Not at all. It was yesterday and I was in the office hours before it happened and it had been cleared by the time I went home.

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Mar 2, 11, 16:55 #9

Harry, have you ever been on a train in the UK that's been delayed by a few hours because of a fatality? I expect you was the miserable bugger complaining?

I used to work for the railway and yes it's a huge inconvenience when the rail network grinds to a halt, because the police have to inspect the scene where someone has gone under a train, I'm sure you're one of those who would just dismiss it as a suicide, but I do remember one incident that occurred when I was at work one day, that turned out to be murder that was made to look like suicide. Had the train driver just kicked the body to one side and carried on driving the train that murder would never have been uncovered.

If it was your mother lying dead beside that tram, you would be the first to insist on a thorough investigation.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 11, 17:03 #10
Daisy: Had the train driver just kicked the body to one side and carried on driving the train that murder would never have been uncovered. You may wish to note that I suggested that the tram should have been moved a matter of ten metres.

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Mar 2, 11, 17:05 #11

Harry:

An example of what is wrong with this country

Harry:

as just hit and killed an old woman who tried to get off it as it was leaving the stop (her body is slightly to the left of the ambulance). Note how the tram is blocking both lanes of one tram route and one lane of another. Note how it is also causing traffic chaos by completely blocking one lane of a major road

Too many bacias in front of trams.

rychlikThreads: 51 Posts: 446 Joined: Aug 6, 08 ♂	Mar 2, 11, 17:12 #12
The same s'hit would happen in Canada. Our tram system sucks. Always delayed. Stop complaining!

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07 ♀	Mar 2, 11, 17:19 #13
Harry: You may wish to note that I suggested that the tram should have been moved a matter of ten metres. which may have destroyed evidence as to what had actually happened, have you never seen the way the police measure and mark out distances after an accident?

MagdalenaThreads: 5 Posts: 1,389 Joined: Aug 15, 07 ♀	Mar 2, 11, 17:22 #14
Harry: a matter of ten metres. Those then meters would then mess up crucial evidence about the actual place where the poor old lady got off (or rather tried to get off) the tram. Two hours is nothing after an accident. Why do you feel the compulsion to moan about every tiny problem you come across?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 11, 17:30 #15
Magdalena: Those then meters would then mess up crucial evidence about the actual place where the poor old lady got off (or rather tried to get off) the tram. Not really: her body was spread over the area where she tried to get off: the tram stopped where the brakes kicked in.

alexw68	Edited by: alexw68 Mar 2, 11, 17:34 #16
Harry: Not really: her body was spread over the area where she tried to get off: the tram stopped where the brakes kicked in. Either way, standard forensic procedure everywhere: don't interfere with the evidence in any way. You can't budge a tram ten metres because you can't budge one 10 millimetres in such a situation. Same rules apply, whether it's Blackpool or Białystok.

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07 ♀	Mar 2, 11, 17:47 #17
Harry, were you personally effected by these delays?

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Mar 2, 11, 18:03 #18
all they had to do was take some photos, mark the road where the wheels of the tram were.... and then move it. as they would do in the uk. i'd like to know how an elderly lady managed to open the doors of a moving tram. or do i misunderstand this: Harry: has just hit and killed an old woman who tried to get off it did she try to get off or did she walk under it ?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 11, 18:07 #19
Wroclaw: all they had to do was take some photos, mark the road where the wheels of the tram were.... and then move it. as they would do in the uk. How dare you suggest that anything is ever done better in the UK than in Poland?!!!

Marynka11Threads: 8 Posts: 1,447 Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀	Edited by: Marynka11 Mar 2, 11, 18:19 #20
Harry: How dare you suggest that anything is ever done better in the UK than in Poland?!!! I don't know about the British, but whenever I dare to peep on this forum that something is not perfect in the USA, I get a collective "Get the f••k out of here" from all the Americans. 19 posts and still nobody offered to chip in to your ticket home. I see why you like it so much in Poland.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Mar 2, 11, 18:25 #21
Marynka11: nobody offered to chip in to your ticket home Oh, we tried that. It didn't work with Harry, so we gave it up. We're stuck with the fellow, I'm afraid ;)

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Mar 2, 11, 18:25 #22
Marynka11: 19 posts and still nobody offered to chip in Wow. Is that how you see it?? I only see wroclaw taking Harry's side.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 11, 18:41 #23
Wroclaw: all they had to do was take some photos, mark the road where the wheels of the tram were.... and then move it. as they would do in the uk. Apparently that area where the Polish kid got stabbed in London was cordon off for quite a while..

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 11, 18:42 #24
Marynka11: I see why you like it so much in Poland. For Harry any day without complaining about something Polish is a lost day of his life.

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Mar 2, 11, 18:44 #25

f stop:

I only see wroclaw taking Harry's side.

not quite. i did ask a question, which hasn't been answered.

in principle i agree with harry, but i still don't know how the woman was killed.

traffic hold-ups caused by accidents are a problem here. and i simply can't see what difference it makes moving a tram that is already many metres from the point of impact.
one problem is that it's not only the police who investigate, but also tram officials. and if they are not at the scene then the tram won't move.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 11, 18:48 #26
Torq: Oh, we tried that. It didn't work with Harry, so we gave it up. Yes but I did very much enjoy the whisky which I bought with the money that you all sent. Any chance you can try again?

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,954 Joined: Aug 6, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 11, 19:04 #27
I remember in Germany police close freeway do to fatality accidents for 4 – 5 hours and in U.S. they do the same thing the other day fatal accident on freeway produce a 15 mile traffic as cars were rerouted out of freeway to streets.

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 11, 22:18 #28
horrible, horrible, horrible, he's right, give him something to drink, damn trams destroying the traffic

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Mar 2, 11, 22:23 #29

jonni:

Cars that have bumped into each other have to sit for ages in the middle of the road in the exact position where the crash happened.

Funnily enough, I was in a tram crash a couple of weeks ago. Some muppet tried to make an illegal left turn across the path of the tram, tram smashed into the side of the car. No-one hurt, but interestingly, the MPK Poznan workers ordered the tram to move clear of the junction despite the car being a write-off. After a few minutes of taking photos, the tram drove off.

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Mar 2, 11, 22:54 #30

jonni:

Cars that have bumped into each other have to sit for ages in the middle of the road in the exact position where the crash happened.

This is the same in Ireland and many countries. So facts can be established, blame apportioned and justice delivered.

It is a crime scene. How can a Policeman arriving on the scene make a judgment that it was definitely an accident and allow the scene to be destroyed. A PERSON (someones mother.grandmother) is dead, I think the greater good is served by us being human and having things done properly. What if she was pushed, the driver drunk, an operational error causing the death. Is the purpose of the investigating not to prevent the preventable as much as punish the offender, if any.

In any respectable country professionals are allowed to get on with their job in these situations, at the slight inconvenience of the public.

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