Do expats living in Poland speak Polish?

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Jan 3, 10, 01:13 #121

To learn to speak and understand a language (spoken) has little or nothing to do with orthography, though. The fact that just about any word can be pronounced solely based on the spelling is helpful, but it will not make it easier to learn to understand the language itself. It will just help when reading out loud, and it saves some time in that you don't need to look up the pronunciation of words.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Jan 3, 10, 02:19 #122
Derevon: It will just help when reading out loud, and it saves some time in that you don't need to look up the pronunciation of words. It's an important and time consuming part of learning languages. We should be glad we don't have to do it. We get more time for other things.

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Jan 3, 10, 13:42 #123

Derevon:

To learn to speak and understand a language (spoken) has little or nothing to do with orthography, though.

Quite right. I don't think I said it did though. I was just trying to be positive about Polish and say something nice. After all that's about the ONLY thing about Polish that is helpful in learning it.

The logical nature of Polish does help because you can learn a word from a book and know how to say it without having to learn all those stupid phonetics symbols or ask a native "how do you say this word?"

One of the hardest things I find about spoken Polish is the intonation and vigorous gesticulation. It's completely different from English and very hard to get used to. People often look and sound to me as if they are about to start a fight. You can't learn that stuff from books though - have to be immersed in the culture.

Mind you, most foreigners don't get English intonation, which is why we now have so many natives ending all their sentences with an upward intonation like the Australians do.

Intonation is a big part of communication too. When I ask my wife a question in English and the answer is "I don't know" the intonation she uses is the same as if she was saying "nie wiem" in Polish - and in English it carries with it a message of "I don't know and **** Off" which is totally unintended.

I think people need to pay a lot more attention to the "music of speech". But I guess that doesn't get taught in classes and also to an extent depends on aural ability.

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Jan 3, 10, 17:03 #124

Myszolow:

Mind you, most foreigners don't get English intonation, which is why we now have so many natives ending all their sentences with an upward intonation like the Australians do.

There was a well documented case in a London airport some years ago where the Indian women working in the workers canteen had a bad relationship with the mainly white british airport staff. Neither side knew why the other side was so rude and aggressive. The workers claimed the woman were sullen and aggressive, pointing at food and stating, "potatoes, meat, carrots" in a way that suggested 'take it or leave it". Subsequently the workers felt they were being treated badly and became aggressive in return.

It turned out that the Indian women were using Indian intonation, which goes down on a closed question, rather than up (as in English). So, they thought they were saying "(do you want) Potatoes?" but because the used a downward intonation it came out as an aggressive statement, rather than a polite question.

I tell my studes this story when we start practising intonation and stress.

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Jan 3, 10, 22:30 #125

Exactly. The thing with English is that native speakers are often more used to hearing it used badly and so it isn't a problem. It's easy to use English with dodgy pronunciation and poor grammar (like the natives do). In Poland folk aren't so used to hearing L2 speakers, especially learners.

it's no different with polish people. i routinely hear how polish people speak with incorrect grammar, do not decline words properly, mess up verb conjugations, etc. etc.

if i had a nickel for every time i have heard, "don't worry, polish grammar is difficult even for polish people."

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Jan 7, 10, 10:45 #126

FUZZYWICKETS:

it's no different with polish people. i routinely hear how polish people speak with incorrect grammar, do not decline words properly, mess up verb conjugations, etc. etc.

I imagine this is so, however, I meant Brits/Americans are most used to hearing the language mangled by foreigners. I find in Poland (at least provincial Poland) the idea of a foreigner speaking Polish (especially a brit) is somewhat a novelty.

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,821 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 08:15 #127
sure. if i so much as spit out one grammatically correct polish sentence in public, everyone's head turns in amazement, followed by, "you speak Polish?........but........why?!"

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 23:53 #128
FUZZYWICKETS: sure. if i so much as spit out one grammatically correct polish sentence in public, everyone's head turns in amazement, followed by, "you speak Polish?........but........why?!" and then they assume you are so fluent that they can rattle on at 1000 miles an hour. (Maybe you are, but I'm not).

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Jan 20, 10, 23:18 #129

Speaking of speaking Polish... as an expat.

What the heck can I say not to offend people? I use to ask if people spoke English and that seemed to be quite offensive and I got No's. Then I just started talking/asking in English and they'd talk back or they'd ask someone standing next to them. However, I think this is rude even if they don't.

So I've gone back to asking "Can I get some assistance, or I need some help please" and I'm getting even more rude responses than either of the above mentioned.

I have thank you and hello down but that is the extent of my Polish and my classes don't start until late Feb.

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Jan 20, 10, 23:50 #130

Chipmunk,

First rule of Poland. (actuall second, the first is 'rules are made to be broken') Anyway, don't take things personally. Polish manners are different from American practice (you seem American, I don't know if you are). Just because someone yells at you, doiesn't mean they don't/won't like you. Poles aren't much into suffering in silence. Speak up in whatever language you can.

(asking if people speak English is kind of insulting or rubbing salt in the wounds of those who don't since those who do speak English spend a lot of time trying to make the rest of their compatriots feel stupid - stop doing that, just ask what you want and if they can't find anyone who speaks english then shrug your shoulders and leave)

Second, it's very often impossible to be polite in two cultures at once. You can be polite in your native culture and (possibly) offend people here, or you can adapt to local practices while feeling rude. Your choice. Which is more important to you a) getting what you want b) being in the right according to your own culture's rules. Usually in Poland you're not going to have both.

Third, the nice think about my first point is you can yell back when you get frustrated and people won't get very upset (even if they return the yelling with more yelling). If anything they'll like you better as someone who stands their ground and doesn't give up (Polish people generally like determined people and don't have much use for wishy washy people).

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Jan 21, 10, 00:00 #131

mafketis

Ah ha! Love your response. Thank you!! It really gives me some direction and makes sense. I don't want to offend and be courteous but I never thought that the approach I have is what I would do back in the States, and well definitely not in Kansas anymore :0)

One good aspect about all of this is that I am slowly learning what they are saying even if I can't say a thing back. Definitely want to learn about this culture, part of the fun of living here! Just still rusty for now.

Thank you!

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Jan 21, 10, 04:20 #132

Chipmunk:

What the heck can I say not to offend people?

How do you think you offend them?

Chipmunk:

I use to ask if people spoke English and that seemed to be quite offensive and I got No's.

I don't think anybody could consider that to be offensive. Either they couldn't speak English or were shy to speak, if they thought their English was not good enough.

Chipmunk:

they'd talk back or they'd ask someone standing next to them. However, I think this is rude even if they don't.

I don't get it. In what language did they talk back to you? What did they ask the person standing next to them? Might it have been that they were looking around to find somebody who could communicate with you? What exactly was rude in this situation and what should be the proper response which you wouldn't consider rude?

Chipmunk:

I'm getting even more rude responses than either of the above mentioned.

Again, what are the responses like?
Is it possible that you're misinterpreting some signals, like voice intonation? Mafketis has a good point here. I just can't imagine that most people would treat rudely any foreigner asking for help. OK, you might come across a jerk or two, but definitely not on a constant basis. Something just doesn't sound right here.

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Jan 24, 10, 13:41 #133

Trevek:

Although how he understood it when i didn't use correct grammer ('jestem głupim cudzoziemcem'... is that better?) i don't know.

Trevek Polish people often use the same construction and the dative construction is slowly sliding into oblivion. Except for those sentences where the nominative construction simply sounds absurd (like Kto jestem instead of Kim jestem? - but you can notice more and more Kto ty jesteś)

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Jan 24, 10, 14:17 #134
gumishu: but you can notice more and more Kto ty jesteś Really?

gumishuThreads: 13 Posts: 3,634 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Jan 24, 10, 14:22 #135
gumishu: vek Polish people often use the same construction and the dative construction is slowly sliding into oblivion. sorry to mislead anyone - the construction in question is instrumental contruction not dative my mistake SzwedwPolsce: gumishu: but you can notice more and more Kto ty jesteś Really? Kim jesteś is sort of declining yes although Kim Pan jest sounds very natural

goodnightvienna

Jan 24, 10, 14:42 #136

I'm Britsh and have lived on and off in Poland for five years. I am back now for another five or more.
I have learnt to speak Polish quite well, but it requires still alot of hard work. I go to advanced Polish classess for 3 hours a week. I advise any one thinking of moving to Poland to live/work to try learning a little before you arrive. There are an increasing number of evening classess in the UK. Also ,even if you use English everyday at work in Poland don't think that English is spoken widely in the couutry itself. Many young educated people in the large cities do speak good English.However most people of all ages working in shops,even in Warsaw will not be able to.This also goes for government and local authority offices, including Customs clearance agents and even offices tasked with handling residency issues for foreigners.
Also Poles have really appreciate foreigners who try to speak their language. They know how hard it is! There is also some great poetry and literature in Polishih that I occasionally try to battle with. I also love reading Polish newspapers.They are often quite interesting.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: mephias Jan 24, 10, 14:50 #137

I attended to a course for four month. I am not even close to speaking but just learnt some basics like greetings, numbers some basic grammar. And self-study for a language is very boring for me. Good that almost all my colleagues are polish and I am listening it everyday and I can say I understand more each day.

Now it is winter and I am a bit busier than normal. But I will try to learn some more for sure after april. And this time I will try some private course which I believe will be more helpful.

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Jan 24, 10, 14:52 #138

goodnightvienna:

This also goes for government and local authority offices, including Customs clearance agents and even offices tasked with handling residency issues for foreigners.

I think in relation to the foreigners office, it's a clear political decision not to place English speaking staff there. I can't say I find it a big issue - if you want residency in a country, you should be able to communicate in the language.

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Edited by: Nika Jan 24, 10, 15:02 #139

goodnightvienna:

I advise any one thinking of moving to Poland to live/work to try learning a little before you arrive.

It's a good idea for any one who's going to settle abroad. Speaking the language or at least knowing some basics makes things much easier.

mephias:

And self-study for a language is very boring for me.

same here, I just don't have enough patience!

goodnightvienna:

Also Poles have really appreciate foreigners who try to speak their language.

Totally agree. I appreciate foreigners who make an effort to learn my language. It always puts a smile on my face to hear Polish spoken with a foreign accent :)

So, thumbs up for all you foreign people speaking Polish!!! Tak trzymać!!!

Krakowska

Jan 24, 10, 16:11 #140

I know about 20 foreigners from all over Europe and America, living in Poland but they all want to go to a warmer country, being stuck here already for almost 1 year they became to hate Poland mainly because of the EXTREME COLD TEMPERATURES and the nightmarish insanely hard language.

They say that they prefer learning chinese instead of this polish language and all the crazy declinations and numerals without any sense...

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 24, 10, 16:27 #141
Krakowska: and the nightmarish insanely hard language What's so difficult about it? I mean, if you put in just a wee bit of effort, you can communicate. You don't have to be grammatically correct to be understood or to understand for that matter. The "It's so hard" excuse is a cop out.

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Jan 24, 10, 16:36 #142

Krakowska:

I know about 20 foreigners from all over Europe and America, living in Poland but they all want to go to a warmer country, being stuck here already for almost 1 year they became to hate Poland mainly because of the EXTREME COLD TEMPERATURES and the nightmarish insanely hard language.

That's why you're in Poland selling Polish language flashcards?

Why don't you just tell the truth and admit that you're unemployable in Poland?

Krakowska	Jan 24, 10, 16:39 #143
delphiandomine: That's why you're in Poland selling Polish language flashcards? Why don't you just tell the truth and admit that you're unemployable in Poland? You should definitely check a psychiatrist. I am a german language teacher in Wroclaw. You are taking me for someone else, you have a problem man

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,273 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Jan 24, 10, 16:41 #144
Krakowska also known as * delhidopemine * Georgiana * Krakowska * Marina1993 * Popw could you stop flaming please.

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,143 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Jan 24, 10, 17:17 #145
Wroclaw: delhidopemine * Georgiana * Krakowska * Marina1993 * Popw And a dozen others i think...?

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Jan 24, 10, 17:20 #146
Krakowska Hi Mark! Some of us here for ten years, plenty of people liking their life here. The cold weather doesn't last long, and thousands of foreigners speak Polish without undue problem. Strange that you made an almost identical post yesterday, same style, same bold letters, same topic; but different username. If you dislike living in Poland so much, the world is your oyster!

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 24, 10, 17:21 #147
Krakowska: for almost 1 year they became to hate Poland mainly because of the EXTREME COLD TEMPERATURES Half of the year are rather warm. People shouldn't freeze when it's over +20 C from May to September.

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,143 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Jan 24, 10, 19:25 #148
Krakowska: EXTREME COLD TEMPERATURES and the nightmarish insanely hard language. I think its colder in my house than most of you have to endure , and i am not complaining...well , not too much really....If it gets too much for me to endure , i will buy one of those nice warm flats in Kracow that are such bargain prices right now.....

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Jan 28, 10, 09:23 #149

Half of the year are rather warm. People shouldn't freeze when it's over +20 C from May to September.

May, unpredictable weather and routinely sees temperatures under 10C. September? Even colder than May often times.

delphiandomine wrote:

Why don't you just tell the truth and admit that you're unemployable in Poland?

how many times are you gonna use that line on someone when you have nothing else to say. Mind you all, it generally comes right after someone puts down Poland in a strong way, and is for the most part right on point. Like:

I know about 20 foreigners from all over Europe and America, living in Poland but they all want to go to a warmer country, being stuck here already for almost 1 year they became to hate Poland mainly because of the EXTREME COLD TEMPERATURES and the nightmarish insanely hard language. They say that they prefer learning chinese instead of this polish language and all the crazy declinations and numerals without any sense...

yeah, I know comments like that sting Delphiandomine, but just learn to come to terms with the fact that the general public thinks Poland sucks in general, along with it's language.

You don't have to be grammatically correct to be understood or to understand for that matter. The "It's so hard" excuse is a cop out.

wrong, wrong and wrong. Let me give you an example of how ridiculous you sound: English isn't hard! Ok, so I don't use any articles, I only use 2 tenses, I can't form any conditionals, I don't really understand any phrasals, my sentence structure is a bit messed up, but I can communicate just fine! Piece of cake!

If you speak a language grammatically incorrect, such as no declensions in Polish, I can assure you that people do not understand you "just fine" and you don't understand them nearly as well as you think. We'll see what tune you start singing when you sit down with a Polish teacher for a few months and they teach you how to REALLY speak the language and not sound like a caveman. After 3 months of the teacher correcting every single sentence you create because it's the farthest thing from grammatically correct, talk to me about what you think of the Polish language. What a joker.

I think in relation to the foreigners office, it's a clear political decision not to place English speaking staff there. I can't say I find it a big issue - if you want residency in a country, you should be able to communicate in the language.

sometimes i guess i underestimate the stupidity on this forum. let me ask you this....you cross the border into Poland and you want residency......you have 90 days to do so before your travel visa expires.....and in that time, you're supposed to march into all necessary Polish offices and take care of business.....IN POLISH? whatever or whomever, it's a bad idea having a governmental office completely absent of english speakers. it only makes things more difficult for foreigners hoping to come here and work/live. period.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Jan 28, 10, 10:11 #150

FUZZYWICKETS:

May, unpredictable weather and routinely sees temperatures under 10C. September? Even colder than May often times.

It was perfectly warm as early as March last year, and didn't get cold until October. I'm cool with it, after all, the climate is no different in Poland than in Germany. And hey, it's far colder in Norway, Sweden and Finland, three countries almost universally regarded as having a very high quality of life. Tempature really doesn't come into it.

FUZZYWICKETS:

yeah, I know comments like that sting Delphiandomine, but just learn to come to terms with the fact that the general public thinks Poland sucks in general, along with it's language.

So...why are you here?

I mean, the general public thinks America sucks too, but people still move there.

FUZZYWICKETS:

If you speak a language grammatically incorrect, such as no declensions in Polish, I can assure you that people do not understand you "just fine" and you don't understand them nearly as well as you think. We'll see what tune you start singing when you sit down with a Polish teacher for a few months and they teach you how to REALLY speak the language and not sound like a caveman. After 3 months of the teacher correcting every single sentence you create because it's the farthest thing from grammatically correct, talk to me about what you think of the Polish language. What a joker.

I assure you that they do. I know someone who is fluent in reading/writing Polish and just has terrible problems with the grammar in spoken Polish. He doesn't have problems at all. Sure, there are easier languages, but there are harder languages too. After all, it's not Poland's fault that the English language isn't standardised.

And any decent language teacher should be correcting everything you say in any language! What kind of teacher doesn't correct their students mistakes?

FUZZYWICKETS:

sometimes i guess i underestimate the stupidity on this forum. let me ask you this....you cross the border into Poland and you want residency......you have 90 days to do so before your travel visa expires.....and in that time, you're supposed to march into all necessary Polish offices and take care of business.....IN POLISH? whatever or whomever, it's a bad idea having a governmental office completely absent of english speakers. it only makes things more difficult for foreigners hoping to come here and work/live. period.

Why should they have English speakers? What about Chinese speakers? Or Japanese speakers? Or what about Czech speakers? German would also be useful, bearing in mind that many EU citizens learnt German and not English at school.

Yes, if you want to deal with bureaucracy in a country, you do it in their own language. Do you honestly think that in France, they'll speak English to you? You must be joking :D

Anyway, if you want to apply for residency in a country, you should be able to communicate. If you can't, then hire an intepreter :)

(thanks for backing up the stereotype that Americans think that everyone should adapt to them rather than them adapting to others)

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