Medical Malpractice in Poland Question

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Oct 19, 11, 21:58 #1

Does anyone know how one goes about seeking accountability for those responsible of this in Poland?

I don't want to give out personal details but it is looking more and more the case as the data rolls in that my worst fears are playing out before my eyes.
I know I witnessed not only incompetence, faulty equipment but also negligence all in short succession of one another.
It seems as though there is a white wall that is protecting the people who clearly made very poor decisions and showed their inability to deal with the very procedure they specialize in.

Does anyone know anything regarding legal recourse in these matters?

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Oct 19, 11, 22:07 #2

I have been joking around a lot tonight on other threads however I am very serious about this issue

unfortunately I have personal experience of this matter

the amount of damages that you can seek in Poland is much less than in the States or the UK.
the level of insurance that Polish GPs get from PZU was equivalent to 40,000 pounds in 2005
which means that in the event of things going tits, you are not looking at recourse to pots of gold
and frankly the health service in Poland are unlikely to be held accountable. no one seems to give a damn

in the UK, GP liability insurance is 10 million quid minimum

I would suggest speaking to a lawyer at your earliest convenience
or at least getting a friend of a friend etc to put you in contact with a lawyer friend for an off the record chat

listening to our well meaning but amateur advice is not probably going to help you much

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Oct 19, 11, 22:16 #3

Thanks all the same my man.
Any anecdotes whether they be first hand or removed are much better than the bewildered state i find myself in. it is now a serious question of future medical fees or legal ones. I just can't believe medical professionals here could have been so incompetent....

What is their motivation for rushing procedures? Do they get a bonus per number of patients they clock out on their shift? Do they rush those at the end of their shift through for some reason?

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Oct 19, 11, 22:20 #4

Foreigner4:

Do they rush those at the end of their shift through for some reason?

yes they have private practices

they need to meet and treat a certain quota of the 'great unwashed' so that they can race off to their private clinics
they keep the public work as it gives them prestige and a constant stream of new victims for the private clinic

Some Polish doctors are experts in graft and can calculate the wealth of a patient based on type of hand bag, make of shoes etc within seconds

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,984 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Oct 19, 11, 22:32 #5
these were nurses... thanks for the feed back though.

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Edited by: magpie Oct 19, 11, 22:50 #6

F4, Last year my mrs had a mammogram, an ultrasound, x-rays, an MRI and a biopsy, all at the same hospital and was given the all clear.

About a month ago she knew something was definitely wrong and was referred to a surgeon who specialises in cancers and he said that the original mammogram was so poor quality as to be virtually unreadable, but one of the other scans showed it up as clear as day. Her treatment starts this week, so 18 months down the friggin gurgler, making the experience far more traumatic than it needed to be.

This would make me think the local radiologist is incompetent, as one would think reading x-rays should be at the top of their list of capabilities. Mrs m has been told that should things be a success, her life style will still be dramatically different, e.g. after the operation she won't be able to carry heavy things, like bags off shopping, or work in the garden. I believe that the doctor needs to be held to account. I'm not saying anything to her at the moment but will be following this up at an appropriate time.

She was recently put in touch with a woman a few streets away who has the exact same experience at the same hospital two years ago, and I think it was the same specialist.

BTW, my SIL just told Mrs m that she recently paid a bribe to get bumped to the front of the queue for an operation on her hip. There are some big mountains to be climbed.

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Oct 19, 11, 23:42 #7

hythorn:

Some Polish doctors are experts in graft and can calculate the wealth of a patient based on type of hand bag, make of shoes etc within seconds

i found that to be true recently when it came to 'rehabilitation'.

but i went the way of nfz.

a bit different to my youngest, yeterday. she attended some up market clinic on ku'damm, berlin. that was a place to behold. and half the staff were Polish. so it seemed. Poland has a long way to go yet.

scottie1113Threads: 11 Posts: 873 Joined: Mar 13, 07 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 00:01 #8
magpie: paid a bribe to get bumped to the front of the queue My Polish doctor friends have told me that this a common practice. It's hard to believe, but they all tell me that it's true.

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Oct 20, 11, 00:12 #9

I'd never heard of it until the SIL(ly cow) mentioned it. Actually, a few years ago mrs m did tell me that in the weeks after the communist government folded, everything was a bit up in the air and that she paid for a doctor's visit, but I didn't really click what she meant, to be honest. But that was a little different to today. (head in hands)

Last night we were in the very plush offices of another oncologist for a 2nd opinion and today my mrs became adamant that he wanted a bribe too.

He said "there are very long waiting queues" followed by a long silence
She said "but what can we do?"
He said "there are very long waiting queues" followed by a long longer silence
She said "but what can we do?"
He said "proceed with your recommended treatment..."

He must have realised that she wasn't being to quick on the old nudge, nudge, wink, wink routine.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 00:24 #10
scottie1113: magpie: paid a bribe to get bumped to the front of the queue My Polish doctor friends have told me that this a common practice. It's hard to believe, but they all tell me that it's true. and talk about PiS being looneys because they tried to go after corrupt doctors

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Oct 20, 11, 12:56 #11

gumishu:

and talk about PiS being looneys because they tried to go after corrupt doctors

well said

in a country where 100 PLN will get you signed off work with an illness of your choice

Some Polish doctors are the kings of graft

as gynaecologists are making so much money knocking out illegal abortions, the bribe to get on a gynaecology specialisation is
utterly astral. I heard 200,000 euros being quoted

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 13:06 #12
hythorn: I heard 200,000 euros being quoted Wouldn't it be easier to bugger off to Germany for it?

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Oct 20, 11, 13:26 #13

magpie:

Wouldn't it be easier to bugger off to Germany for it?

A lot of Polish doctors went to work in Germany however they needed to speak... German
and their salaries were poor. and they were treated like dirt by German patients and colleagues
but they could walk away with a bright shiny specialisation diploma so it will all be worth it

contrast this with the UK GMC (boo hiss) they promised Indian and Pakistani doctors 7 year
courses to become consultants and then changed their minds and betrayed those doctors
did not allow them to get qualified and then cancelled their work permits

several Asian doctors committed suicide as a result
the UK press hushed it all up as usual

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Oct 20, 11, 13:32 #14

hythorn:

A lot of Polish doctors went to work in Germany however they needed to speak... German
and their salaries were poor.

i heard from my friend a different story, a serbian doctor, internist, who came to germany, nerbay frankfurt and worked for the fresenius institute. of course they 'demanded' that he could speak basic german, with the possibility to join german classes paid by them. his salary was approx. 2.000 Eur, what is approx. the salary of a arzt in practise, meaning before he, if does, become phd.

the thing with the german language is again sth the german admin uses to discriminate/select the persons they want to give working permit. that what the auslaenderamt at the beginning not managed to do, they try now. stupid.

all in total germany has a huge lack of qualified personal, engineers, doctors etc. strange, even though thuousands are finishing faculties...

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Oct 20, 11, 13:35 #15

Sorry I wasn't very clear on that, I meant wouldn't it be easier (and cheaper) for the patients to bugger off the Germany for the abortion. Much like how the Irish go to the UK... unless of course they are 12 years old and raped by their friend's father, in which case they get a court order banning them from leaving the country.

Your explanation was interesting, nonetheless. I didn't realise that the GMC had done that. Did they put on pith hats for the occasion? :(

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Oct 20, 11, 13:46 #16

magpie:

I didn't realise that the GMC had done that. Did they put on pith hats for the occasion? :(

it was indeed nasty - they put their pith hats, monocles, handle bar moustaces, safari jackets and ruined the lives of countless Asian doctors

so if you were the number on son from Pakistan, the family would sell the farm, your sisters would not be able to get married due to a lack
of money for dowries and then the dear old GMC sank the knife in between the shoulder blades

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Oct 20, 11, 13:51 #17

magpie:

Last night we were in the very plush offices of another oncologist for a 2nd opinion and today my mrs became adamant that he wanted a bribe too.

He said "there are very long waiting queues" followed by a long silence
She said "but what can we do?"
He said "there are very long waiting queues" followed by a long longer silence
She said "but what can we do?"

Reminds me of an English guy whose wife was giving birth in Warsaw (a few years back now). The wife was getting virtually no attention at all from nurses and when she asked what drugs would be available for the pain or whether there could be a private room she was told that there were none. The English guy spoke in his best Polish to head nurse and was told that nothing would improve unless he paid her off. He called his Polish business partner who pointed out to the nurse that for less than half what she was asking two large gentlemen who provided security services to him and English bloke could be waiting outside when she finished a shift sometime in the next month and that would result in her walking with a limp for the rest of her life. Suddenly nothing was too much trouble and mother to be got anything she asked for.

Make the moral of this what you will.

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Edited by: hythorn Oct 20, 11, 13:57 #18

what they did to one of my friends is that she had to pay for anaesthesia but they did not give her any

the hospital had already sold it to another hospital - a scandal which made the papers if I recall

I do not condone threats of violence against women however

one of the favourite tricks of the reception staff is when a pregnant woman turns up, they tell them
that there are no beds and they tell them to get a taxi to another hospital

the mother starts to give birth in the taxi enroute to another hospital, there are complications and the baby gets brain damage

way to go, Polish health service

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Edited by: magpie Oct 20, 11, 14:19 #19

hythorn:

I do not condone threats of violence against women however

neither do I, but the nurse in the anecdote did, which is even more sad.

hythorn:

mother starts to give birth in the taxi enroute to another hospital, there are complications and the baby gets brain damage

See previous comment.

Some people - myself included - probably ask the wrong questions, such as "Do Polish people..." or "Is it normal in Poland for..." when the questions should be more "Do any nations of people who lived for generations under a regime that wasn't really interested in their welfare, actively nurtured mistrust and totally discouraged people putting their head above the parapet or using one's initiative frequently..."

Last year BBC R4 had a series, where they read out old declassified letters sent to London by various UK diplomats based around the world. One I remember was by a man who had been at the British embassy in Warsaw both pre and post WWII. He had commented on what friendly people Poles were prior to the war, then after the war his letters became quite dark. He commented upon how the Stalinist influence of fear encouraged mistrust and a mentality of 'if you don't want to get into trouble, don't do anything at all unless so instructed'. No wonder there are small daily experiences of their remnants.

On a lighter note, they commented on how in the 1970s a child's toy remote control car would open the electric/rc gates of a police station in central Moscow. :)

Right, time for a cup of tea I think.

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 843 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 14:34 #20
For 4: this is why you need to think carefully about you want to take a hospital to court - they do not give a sh!t and you could spend a lot of money to find out that the courts don't either

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,984 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 21:48 #21
consider that considered:/

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Oct 20, 11, 22:19 #22

I just been flicking through some old pics.

get a load of this: last thing i remember was looking up at the ceiling thinking that ceiling needs painting. They also had this very retro Star Trek style operating light. But hey i needed to be sliced....

neet and tidy

magpieThreads: 7 Posts: 171 Joined: Mar 10, 09 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 22:26 #23
Wroclaw Boy: last thing i remember was looking up at the ceiling thinking that ceiling needs painting. Just as well it didn't need re-plastering!

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,470 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Oct 20, 11, 22:36 #24
magpie: Just as well it didn't need re-plastering! yeah mate, on a totally personal level i found Polish hospitals to be excellent. I was in with appendicitis and two weeks later my wife gave birth, private before and after room.. Couldn't have wished for more really. Those bottles of Whiskey really paid dividends.

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Edited by: magpie Oct 20, 11, 23:06 #25

Wroclaw Boy:

I was in with appendicitis and two weeks later my wife gave birth

Christ, I wish I'd know it was that easy! You can't imagine the things I had to do to my mrs to get her pregnant!! ;)

I have no doubt that many people have a trouble free experience in the nice modern hospitals that I've been in, but I think the problem is getting all the various bits in the system connected.

As I see it, in the US/UK/Aus it's either megabuck-private or free-public. Either way everything is managed for: In the UK the NHS send you letters telling you a date/time for your appointment, in a private system you get lattes in the waiting room.

But here, mrs was told "you need to see a radiographer... who will you be using?" Err...

"You need an oncologist...who will you be using?" Err....

"Oh, and we can't operate until next year. Find another hospital that can fit you in and get back to us" unquote.

Our experience is that you have the freedom to choose whatever specialist you want, but there is little to no assistance in coordinating..... anything.

So what story are you going to make up about the scar?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Oct 20, 11, 23:35 #26

magpie:

But here, mrs was told "you need to see a radiographer... who will you be using?" Err...

"You need an oncologist...who will you be using?" Err....

"Oh, and we can't operate until next year. Find another hospital that can fit you in and get back to us" unquote.

Our experience is that you have the freedom to choose whatever specialist you want, but there is little to no assistance in coordinating..... anything.

So what story are you going to make up about the scar?

Dude please, stop making it complicated. A few well placed bottles of whiskey, the odd envelope here and there, boxes of chocolates all round.... Job done. Doughnuts for the nursing staff of course. Thats the way it is in PL.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 20, 11, 23:39 #27
WB is right. You simply have to butter them up and they can be like putty in your hands. Some, well, are stiff feckin gits. No getting away from that. Many just won't accept blame here. I guess that's what separates me from them.

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Edited by: peterweg Oct 21, 11, 11:19 #28

Wroclaw Boy:

Dude please, stop making it complicated. A few well placed bottles of whiskey, the odd envelope here and there, boxes of chocolates all round.... Job done. Doughnuts for the nursing staff of course. Thats the way it is in PL.

Yeah, because nurse love to be given sweets. My wife is a nurse and the attitude is they they don't want sweets, you may as well not bother. I get the impression that doctors do take bribes, however. She and her nursing friends feel bad when people offer money as you don't become a nurse for money, if they did they would leave for the UK .

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Oct 21, 11, 11:53 #29

Some of you guys tell stories from middle ages . It is not today`s Poland, doctors make salaries 15000 -30000 zł a month . They really don`t need your gifts .

http://chrzanow.naszemiasto.pl/artykul/804694,lista-plac-lekarzy-piele gniarek-i-aptekarzy-sprawdzilismy,id,t.html
Examples of salary :

32 800 zł
- ginecologist from Tarnow, I degree of specialization work in hospital - 4 800 zł, work shifts - 4 000 zł, private practice - 24 000 zł . Seniority in work - 12 years

25 000 zł
- dentist , private practice in Nowy Targ

17 400 zł
- contract surgeon in Krakow , salary 12 000 zł, shifts 4500 zł - (5 12 hour -shifts for 900 zł each)
15 000 zł
- dentist private practice in Krakow

12 800 zł
- cardiologist in hospital . Senirity 18 years

Gosh , If only you could read Polish language !

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Oct 21, 11, 13:44 #30
polmed: Some of you guys tell stories from middle ages . It is not today`s Poland, doctors make salaries 15000 -30000 zł a month . They really don`t need your gifts . A friend who's a doctor complains about all the extra work he has to do. He's a specialist and from his main job in a state hospital makes less than 3000zl. Why the lies, polonmed/Moania? Are you incapable of being truthful?

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