55 minutes to write a ticket ("mandat karny")?

nauczyciel	Aug 16, 10, 11:24 #1
so i got stopped for speeding on Sat night. I didn't dispute it. I gave all my documents and it took the guy 55 minutes to complete the paperwork. Unbelievable! I won't go into all the questions he asked, but some of them were ridiculous. I guess the IDP really confused them. Also on the form "Mandat Karny", with my info on it, it says "6 points". But since I have an IDP, are they meaningless?

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Aug 16, 10, 11:40 #2

nauczyciel:

so i got stopped for speeding on Sat night. I didn't dispute it. I gave all my documents and it took the guy 55 minutes to complete the paperwork. Unbelievable!

He may have been querying your immigration status - not just against the Schengen database, but also the validity of your residence documents/etc. Or he may simply have wanted to punish you further for breaking the law - who knows? Wasting your time for breaking the law seems fair enough to me.

nauczyciel:

I won't go into all the questions he asked, but some of them were ridiculous.

You broke the law, so he has the right to ask you what he deemed appropriate. Come on, read any police procedural novel - sometimes the most strange questions are asked.

nauczyciel:

I guess the IDP really confused them.

If he was clued up, you should have been in more trouble for using the IDP after being resident here for more than a year. As a non-EU driving licence holder, you are obligated to exchange it after being resident for more than a year.

nauczyciel:

Also on the form "Mandat Karny", with my info on it, it says "6 points". But since I have an IDP, are they meaningless?

Nope. They are attached to your PESEL, not your driving licence.

You do seem to get quite a lot of hassle from the police, don't you?.

♂

Edited by: Seanus Aug 16, 10, 11:41 #3

Maybe he got more pay for making it last longer? ;)

Seriously though, that's absurd! I think it's because many haven't got the idea that life goes beyond paperwork and also the notion of respecting peoples' time. Fine, you were speeding but most people do it. As long as you weren't putting others in harm's way. Doing time is for jail, not sitting and answering mundane questions. The Poles will make for great partners in the inquisitive and intrusive NWO ;) ;)

Delph, it's a speeding ticket for crying out loud. I guarantee you that you'd show a few signs of irritation beyond the half-hour point. This is not the detention of a terrorist we are talking about here.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,386 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Aug 16, 10, 12:00 #4
delphiandomine: Wasting your time for breaking the law seems fair enough to me. Wasting time -may also mean the donation to the policeman's ball...

nauczyciel

Aug 16, 10, 12:04 #5

delphiandomine:

f he was clued up, you should have been in more trouble for using the IDP after being resident here for more than a year. As a non-EU driving licence holder, you are obligated to exchange it after being resident for more than a year.

Oh really?? Please supply me with government documentation to back up your statement that I must exchange it? I've had one since Sept 06 and it's never been an issue up to Saturday night.

What kind of trouble should I have been in according to you- " the person who knows everything about everything"?

Have you read big blue book "Navigating Poland- Helpful Information for Third Country Nationals 2009r"? There is nothing about drivers licenses in there. One would think there would be that information.

delphiandomine:

Nope. They are attached to your PESEL, not your driving licence.

So.... now what happens?

delphiandomine:

You do seem to get quite a lot of hassle from the police, don't you?.

Stopped 2 times in almost 4 years sure must be "quite a lot of hassle" in your eyes.

The guys partner wrote 3 tickets to other drivers in the time it took mine to be completed for a comparison.

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Aug 16, 10, 12:54 #6

nauczyciel:

Oh really?? Please supply me with government documentation to back up your statement that I must exchange it? I've had one since Sept 06 and it's never been an issue up to Saturday night.

And funnily enough, it became an issue because someone knew that you shouldn't be driving on it after being resident for 12 months. And anyway, the IDP ceases to be valid after 3 years regardless of national law - so your admission that you've had one since September 2006 is enough to show that you're breaking the law, yet again.

No wonder you have such problems with the Polish police when you can't seem to stay within the law.

nauczyciel:

What kind of trouble should I have been in according to you- " the person who knows everything about everything"?

You should have been treated in accordance with the rules for someone who was driving without a valid licence. The fact you didn't - count yourself lucky. An expired IDP is the same as driving without a valid licence.

nauczyciel:

So.... now what happens?

Nothing much. You should go to your local police station to find out when your driving "year" ends - at the end of the "year", your record is wiped clean. You have 24 points a year to play with, so really - nothing to worry about. Even if you hit 24, you can take a course which removes 6 points - so really, drive freely.

nauczyciel:

The guys partner wrote 3 tickets to other drivers in the time it took mine to be completed for a comparison.

I think in all fairness, they may have been conducting additional checks on you. My suspicion is that they could have been waiting for confirmation of your residence - while they can check the criminal databases within seconds, I'm not so sure that they can check your residence status so quickly.

Either that, or the guy was just being awkward for the sake of it. Odd though, the Polish police don't like to keep people waiting around in general.

nauczyciel

Edited by: nauczyciel Aug 16, 10, 13:12 #7

delphiandomine:

nauczyciel:
Oh really?? Please supply me with government documentation to back up your statement that I must exchange it? I've had one since Sept 06 and it's never been an issue up to Saturday night.

And funnily enough, it became an issue because someone knew that you shouldn't be driving on it after being resident for 12 months. And anyway, the IDP ceases to be valid after 3 years regardless of national law - so your admission that you've had one since September 2006 is enough to show that you're breaking the law, yet again.

No wonder you have such problems with the Polish police when you can't seem to stay within the law.

see?? you can't supply me with official documentation. So shut it.

By saying that an IDP expires after 3 years shows you are talking out of your a$$ and know nothing about an IDP. I get mine every year before expiry. It is only valid for 1 year from date of issue and mine expires on August 27 2010. So there!

Perhaps you should go do a Wikipedia search about IDPs before you start trying to sound like you know everything. You just make yourself look like an idiot.

If I wasn't allowed to be using it, why didn't he tell me so and take appropriate actions like impound my car for example? He spoke good English, so there was no problem.

delphiandomine:

You should have been treated in accordance with the rules for someone who was driving without a valid licence. The fact you didn't - count yourself lucky. An expired IDP is the same as driving without a valid licence.

It wasn't expired. So???

delphiandomine:

Either that, or the guy was just being awkward for the sake of it. Odd though, the Polish police don't like to keep people waiting around in general.

I'm sure that he had better things to do from 00:02 to 00:57 Sat/Sun

♂ [Suspended]

Aug 16, 10, 13:15 #8

nauczyciel:

see?? you can't supply me with official documentation. So shut it.

I don't have the inclination to trawl through the law to find it - but it's there. Go ask your local WORD if you don't believe me :)

nauczyciel:

By saying that an IDP expires after 3 years shows you are talking out of your a$$ and know nothing about an IDP. I get mine every year before expiry. It is only valid for 1 year and mine expires on August 27 2010. So there!

Excellent, you've just admitted that you were actually breaking the law further, as an IDP cannot be renewed if you are continually resident in Poland. It doesn't count if you leave for a couple of weeks - the licence must be exchanged after 12 months residence, end of story.

Some versions of the IDP don't expire after a year - it depends on the issuing authority. Either way, they all expire after 3 years or when the licence does.

nauczyciel:

If I wasn't allowed to be using it, why didn't he tell me so and take appropriate actions like impound my car for example? He spoke good English, so there was no problem.

Good question. I suspect unfamiliarity with the IDP in this case.

nauczyciel

Aug 16, 10, 13:28 #9

delphiandomine:

nauczyciel:
see?? you can't supply me with official documentation. So shut it.

I don't have the inclination to trawl through the law to find it - but it's there. Go ask your local WORD if you don't believe me :)

nauczyciel:
By saying that an IDP expires after 3 years shows you are talking out of your a$$ and know nothing about an IDP. I get mine every year before expiry. It is only valid for 1 year and mine expires on August 27 2010. So there!

Excellent, you've just admitted that you were actually breaking the law further, as an IDP cannot be renewed if you are continually resident in Poland. It doesn't count if you leave for a couple of weeks - the licence must be exchanged after 12 months residence, end of story.

Some versions of the IDP don't expire after a year - it depends on the issuing authority. Either way, they all expire after 3 years or when the licence does.

nauczyciel:
If I wasn't allowed to be using it, why didn't he tell me so and take appropriate actions like impound my car for example? He spoke good English, so there was no problem.

Good question. I suspect unfamiliarity with the IDP in this case.

just give up. you spout off that you know everything,,, but can't even back it up with government documents or even website links. Yes...I'm calling you out again and again.

Where does it say in Polish Law that I can't renew my IDP if I "continually resident" [sic] to Pl?

what IDP's expire after 3 years from date of issue? I'm curious.

Just stop already. You are embarrassing yourself.

Also... it's "license". Do you ever see the mistakes with red squiggly lines under it?

♂

Aug 16, 10, 13:34 #10

Whenever I got stopped for speeding a bank note of around 100 pln or just refusing to speak English usually got them on their way again.

Mikey its speeding, Its hardly a serious offence, I'm sure if you pass your test you'll do it.

Its a bastard now i live in an English speaking country (Australia) as the police actually do speak a strange b astardised version of English and will do you for 1 kph over.

♂ [Suspended]

Aug 16, 10, 13:51 #11

nauczyciel:

Where does it say in Polish Law that I can't renew my IDP if I "continually resident" [sic] to Pl?

It says quite clearly that you must exchange your licence after 12 months, in accordance with EU standards. It's quite normal in the world that you have to exchange after 12 months residence - nothing special there.

Then again, it's not my problem if you're stopped and the licence taken away.

dnz:

Its a bastard now i live in an English speaking country (Australia) as the police actually do speak a strange b astardised version of English and will do you for 1 kph over.

What's it like having to keep to the speed limit after Poland? :P

♂

Edited by: Threegigs Aug 16, 10, 15:38 #12

Well, here's the text of the original international driving treaty, known as the "Geneva Convention on Road Traffic" from 1949:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071124104726/http://www.6towns.com/drivin g/UNconv.html

Article 1, section 2 states: No Contracting State shall be required to extend the benefit of the provisions of this Convention to any motor vehicle or trailer, or to any driver having remained within its territory for a continuous period exceeding one year.

Now, depending on whether the country in question issues or recognizes the Geneva convention of 1949 or the Vienna convention of 1968, the validity may be for one (Geneva) or three (Vienna) years. The Vienna agreement supercedes the Geneva agreement.

The US wasn't a signatory to the 1968 Vienna agreement, and Poland was, but Poland recognizes the Geneva convention, so your US-issued IDP is valid in Poland. IDPs are only valid for one year, however they can be renewed (technically they aren't renewed, you simply get a new one).

Ok, so the treaty which Poland recognizes but isn't signatory to any more says it's OPTIONAL as to whether or not a country must recognize IDPs if someone has lived in their territory for a year or more. Oh, and there was also a European agreement from 1971 which supplements the 1968 agreement.

Now, when it comes to driving, there are some EU directives, such as Directive 91/439/EEC , which apply to Poland, and there are some Polish laws regarding licenses which may also apply.

Personally, I've never seen any *definite* information on whether or not an IDP is recognized in Poland if you've been living here for a year or more. Considering you were stopped and allowed to go with an IDP and Karta Pobytu, I'd say that's strong anecdotal evidence that you *can* do so.

And P.S. : Dammit Harry, post sooner! (grin)

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Aug 16, 10, 15:48 #13

Threegigs:

Personally, I've never seen any *definite* information on whether or not an IDP is recognized in Poland if you've been living here for a year or more. Considering you were stopped and allowed to go with an IDP and Karta Pobytu, I'd say that's strong anecdotal evidence that you *can* do so.

There is strong anecdotal evidence that Americans can get a new 90-day visa by going to Ukraine (I know a fair few who have been going there every three months and continue to be let back in). Of course the law is actually crystal clear: a residency permit is required. I'd be very hesitant about using anecdotal evidence in Poland!

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Aug 16, 10, 15:55 #14
nauczyciel: so i got stopped for speeding on Sat night. I didn't dispute it. I gave all my documents and it took the guy 55 minutes to complete the paperwork. Unbelievable! HAHA Don't you understand why he made you wait? HE was actually waiting for you to bribe him. Next time just put the money on the table and you will see magic for the first time of your life!!!

♂

Edited by: sobieski Aug 16, 10, 18:40 #15

In this discussion I have another question.
I got stopped by the police for speeding as well (+ crossing a white line) - in February.
Big black, unmarked Opel Insignia made me stop... and these days you get your own private movie seance...they showed my criminal act :) on TV.
Of course they were right to fine me, no question about that.

But although I have a Karta Pobytuna na stale they made me pay in cash on the spot.
Luckily I had 200 PLN with me. I got an official receipt afterwards :)
And the kind of receipt I got was one without points - like the one they would use for tourists. Also strange.
But isn't it so that in this case (when you have a permanent residence permit) you should be allowed to pay later on by transfer / or in the post office?

♂

Aug 16, 10, 18:49 #16

Interesting topic wrt IDP. I really need to know the 'real' answer. I have been renewing my IDP every year to avoid having to take the written test and give up my US license (not that I have any intention of returning) . But, I suspect that the truth is closer to what Delph wrote: permanent residents, should/must get a valid Polish license within 12 months of becoming a permanent resident. As long as you were not, you could always play the part of the travelling business man.

Next year my US license expires, so I guess I will need to take the plunge anyway...

♂

Aug 16, 10, 19:19 #17

lateStarter:

Interesting topic wrt IDP. I really need to know the 'real' answer. I have been renewing my IDP every year to avoid having to take the written test and give up my US license (not that I have any intention of returning) . But, I suspect that the truth is closer to what Delph wrote: permanent residents, should/must get a valid Polish license within 12 months of becoming a permanent resident.

That is only the case when you are not a EU-citizen.

♂

Aug 16, 10, 21:31 #18

Ok, here's something:
http://polandian.home.pl/index.php/2009/06/23/polish-driving-licenses/

From the text:
"The long and short of it is that your EU driving license is good for the first 6 months of your stay in Poland. After that you need a Polish one -"

And the apparently relevant bit of Polish law:
"2. państwo:
a. będące stroną Konwencji o ruchu drogowym, sporządzonej w Wiedniu dnia 8 listopada 1968 r. (Dz. U. z 1988 r. Nr 5, poz. 40 i 44), (wykaz państwa w załączeniu)
b. państwo trzecie, którego wzór prawa jazdy jest zgodny z wzorem określonym w Konwencji, o której mowa w lit. a
w okresie 6 miesięcy od daty rozpoczęcia stałego lub czasowego pobytu, nie dłużej jednak niż przez okres ważności prawa jazdy."

Now... I'm unsure if there's a difference in interpretation between the two kinds of Polish residency... temporary and permament, or if that even matters.

If anyone more familiar with Polish than I am would care to research the law, it's apparently from 29 lipca 2005 r ( Dz. U. Nr 18, poz. 1497 ).

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Aug 16, 10, 22:15 #19

sobieski:

But isn't it so that in this case (when you have a permanent residence permit) you should be allowed to pay later on by transfer / or in the post office?

Yes - as far as I recall, the law surrounding this allows people with residency in Poland to pay later. But - and this is the big but - it may only apply to those with a Polish driving licence. I can't recall the exact details - I looked into it a while ago, but there is definitely some sort of provision for those with residency to pay later.

Of course - the front line officers may not be aware of this provision - and to be fair, by paying there and then, you managed to avoid getting points ;)

lateStarter:

I have been renewing my IDP every year to avoid having to take the written test and give up my US license (not that I have any intention of returning) .

How come? The written test is about 22zl and is in English - I could even pass on the exam computer programme to you if you so wish.

Threegigs:

"The long and short of it is that your EU driving license is good for the first 6 months of your stay in Poland. After that you need a Polish one -"

Oh jeez, the law is even more of a mess than I thought. I could have sworn that this requirement was well and truly abolished - it wouldn't surprise me if there are conflicting laws on this issue, to be honest. Either way, EU law (which will take precedence over Polish law) allows people to retain their EU licence as long as it's valid. I seem to recall that Harry on this forum is still driving around with the old green UK paper licence?

As always - what the law says and what you can get away with are two different things entirely.

♂

Edited by: sobieski Aug 16, 10, 22:18 #20

delphiandomine:

Of course - the front line officers may not be aware of this provision - and to be fair, by paying there and then, you managed to avoid getting points ;)

Hmmm.. But it was not a bribe..It was an official fine and I got nice official receipt for it :)

It was the first time though I saw the Thin Blue Line on the hightech side... and I was impressed. I was a bit less impressed by my road antics :)

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Aug 16, 10, 22:28 #21
i don't know how that happened, what they did... these cars are about 100 years old, btw.... :D

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Aug 16, 10, 22:29 #22
sobieski: Hmmm.. But it was not a bribe..It was an official fine and I got nice official receipt for it :) I know, but by getting the on-the-spot fine reserved for foreigners, you didn't get points - I assume that they would be obliged to give you them if they gave you the pay-up-in-a-few-days version :) (do you have a Polish or foreign licence?)

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,141 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Edited by: sobieski Aug 16, 10, 22:39 #23
Aha, now I understand why one of the policemen told me it was my "lucky day". On that moment I did not see it that way :) I am driving on my Belgian licence, by the way.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Aug 16, 10, 22:42 #24
sobieski: I am driving on my Belgian licence. I think that may be the reason for not being offered the ticket post-paid - they have no means of revoking a Belgian licence if you don't pay the fine, whereas they can do this easily with a Polish licence. Or maybe, simply, they thought that foreign licence = on the spot fine, without consideration as to your residency. I don't know :)

♂

Aug 16, 10, 23:43 #25

They should give you the chance to send payment if you have a licence from another EU country, Also regarding swapping your licence for a Polish one, Good luck with that as they'll make it impossible, I drove on my uk licence for 3 years.

It could also be dependent on your visa, I know that here as i'm on a 4 year temporary stay visa i'm not eligible for an Aussie licence and just have to drive on my UK one.

♂ [Suspended]

Aug 17, 10, 01:57 #26

delphiandomine:

I seem to recall that Harry on this forum is still driving around with the old green UK paper licence?

Yep. Brilliant little thing, almost everytime the old bill here see it they immediately reconsider the wisdom trying to pull the details off it to write up a ticket for me. And on the rare occasions that they can be bothered, the old 'folding money in the registration documents' routine has solved any discussion about how large the fine will be. In eight years of driving here (over a 15 year period), the only tickets I've ever paid were the camera ones that come through the post (and most of them were ones that were passed on to me by the PR departments of car importers).

CacyUlciaThreads: 2 Posts: 93 Joined: Aug 27, 09 ♀	Aug 17, 10, 18:10 #27
He needed that extra time to pick his nose. If you pay attention to them the way the pay attention to you, you will see it happen too.

♂

Aug 17, 10, 18:20 #28

And I have another interesting situation here... A pedestrian one :)
Last year 15 August I was walking here in my Bielany on a sunbaked street...completely alone (everybody else went to see Madonna :)).
Pedestrian crossing...no cars at all...red light... Never mind...
Suddenly behind me a speaker voice "Przepraszam Pana". Police car around the corner...
Got fined 100 PLN...

But I am sure they were waiting for me to pay a "subisidy". I mean one lonely pedestrian on an empty street...
Anyway I did not, got an official fine. Which is stilll hanging in the kitchen on the board..between the appointments for the cat to go the vet and me to the dentist :)

Anyway... from what I know, if you do not pay a fine, Urząd Skarbowy "might" take it from you. But I have colleagues at work who tell me that is a 30% chance....
How does it work?
I mean, if I have to pay I will do so of course. But I am waiting :)

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