In order to grow you have to let go. Poland will prevail.

♂

Edited by: warszawski Aug 17, 10, 12:16 #1

I have been frequenting this forum for a just over 1 year now and it amazes me that most discussions always seem to descend into the same diatribe. Primarily " Poland is **** and the UK/America is better". Having lived in Poland for many years I can say with some authority that it takes time to get to know the culture,history and the people. There are a lot of things that I like about Poland and there are many things I believe must change in this country, but I also realize that things take time. Poland as a nation has shown remarkable character over the centuries and its history is fraught with much pride and sadness, but we must not forget that PL circa 1989 is still a small child growing and must be allowed to fall down many times before it will stand firmly. So for all of you expats and locals who have something positive to say about Poland and its future challenges, i would be very interested to hear your thoughts. For all you cockroaches that only come out when a storm is brewing stay in your dark wet holes this one is not for you.

♂

Aug 17, 10, 12:32 #2

The crucial thing is that it is not for us to impose our will or visions on Poland. We can influence them, yes, but it would be highly disingenuous for us to go beyond that. They were trampled by communism. Also, they tend to be traditional so the status quo takes that bit longer to change. Let them choose what their priorities are and what they want to change. Then we, as those that played a part in their trampling, can assist with EU funds to make things happen :)

RichfilthThreads: 8 Posts: 327 Joined: Mar 8, 09 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 14:39 #3
Whenever I hear the "Poland is a young nation" line, I'm reminded of this story: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/scotland-to- buy-second-hand-car-with-own--money-20070814344/

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,386 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 14:43 #4
Richfilth: Whenever I hear the "Poland is a young nation" line, I'm reminded of this story: thedailymash is very funny

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Aug 17, 10, 14:43 #5
warszawski: but we must not forget that PL circa 1989 is still a small child growing and Because after 1000 years Poland is a small child, dude you havent got a clue i know you wanted it to come off positive but Poland is neither a young nation nor a small child.

♂

Edited by: Richfilth Aug 17, 10, 14:54 #6

Sokrates:

Because after 1000 years Poland is a small child, dude you havent got a clue i know you wanted it to come off positive but Poland is neither a young nation nor a small child.

Whilst true, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to say Poland is 1000 years old, you can't use the "didn't exist for 200* years" line that most Poles use to cover up certain glaring deficiencies.

If we reset the clock to 1795, before Poland disappeared from the map, then yes, the country was in many ways as advanced, and in some ways more, than its European siblings. I don't think anyone in this thread is bringing that into contention. But since then, the world has moved on rather noticeably, and Poland has a lot of catching up to do. In that sense, it's a very young nation. It's only got 20 years of democracy under its belt, for instance.

*123 plus Communism plus inflation

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 14:59 #7
Sokrates will come back and correct you, Richfilth. They had a year of democracy under the Polish Constitution of 1791 :) :) Almost 22 years, in fact. November of this year will mean 22 years :)

♂

Aug 17, 10, 15:05 #8

That's why I reset the clock to 1795; otherwise those first few years of the First Republic would count too ;)

Still, if you take a 200-year break between democracies, and that first one was a revolutionary experiment, it's not really fair to say "a country with a democracy spanning three centuries", that's twisting things a bit.

Sokrates, there is no plan in this thread to offend Poland's rich, noble and proud history. But as a country trying to find its place in the international arena, it's a "young" one.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 15:10 #9
That's true! We are in a NWO order now and Poland can no longer harp back to its aristocratic past.

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Sokrates Aug 17, 10, 15:13 #10

Richfilth:

Whilst true, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to say Poland is 1000 years old, you can't use the "didn't exist for 200* years" line that most Poles use to cover up certain glaring deficiencies.

Poland did not exist for 200 years which severely influenced its economic, military and political situation.

Polish nation existed continously as a distinct entity for 1000 years, first in the form of nobles just like all other nations, then in the form same for all other european nations.

While Poles do say Poland was off the map to provide reasons for Polands many troubles and are right to do so (most of the time anyway) people who say Poland is a young country mean so socially or politically.

In other words Poland a young country is meant to mean Poles are a young immature nation which is just bollocks, not only are Poles 1000 years old but they repeatedly proved their maturity well over other nations.

Richfilth:

But since then, the world has moved on rather noticeably, and Poland has a lot of catching up to do.

In what areas? The only area i can imagine Poland needs to catch up is economy, in every other its on par.

Richfilth:

In that sense, it's a very young nation

Thats newspeak buddy, communists and corporations use it to convince people to their point while covering up the fact they dont really know what they're talking about.

Provide specific reasons why Poland is a young nation despite achieving national consciousness at the same time as every other nation and national liberties a solid 2 centuries earlier than every other european nation?

Richfilth:

It's only got 20 years of democracy under its belt, for instance.

And yet its a completely stable country in every respect which means its democracy works just as well as it works in countries that have it for 65 years like Germany so you just defeated yourself.

Richfilth:

Sokrates, there is no plan in this thread to offend Poland's rich, noble and proud history. But as a country trying to find its place in the international arena, it's a "young" one.

Another example of newspeak, why do you assume Poland is trying to find anything? Ever occured to you that being a member of EU and NATO were the primary goals and places to be for Poland?

Poland is not trying to find its place in the international arena, it found it, the place is temporary but for now it'll do.

Seanus:

Sokrates will come back and correct you, Richfilth. They had a year of democracy under the Polish Constitution of 1791 :) :) Almost 22 years, in fact. November of this year will mean 22 years :)

Noble democracy worked far faaaar longer than that.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 15:25 #11
As opposed to unnoble democracy? ;) ;) Militarily, Sok? Is Poland as strong as it could be?

♂

Aug 17, 10, 15:34 #12

ha, poland has over than 1000 years of history, but - was it also history of poles? looking in the past - 20 years of freedom, 50 years of stupid sovietisation of poles, 6 years of extermiation, again 20 years of freedom, but in multicultural country (jews, ukranians, etc), almost 130 years being ruled by other nations, kulturkampf, exterminations (syberia), etc. we are carrying this heavy historical baggage.

in mine opinion our nation is rebuilding right now - we have chance to leave behind our difficult history.

♂ [Suspended]

Aug 17, 10, 15:54 #13

Seanus:

As opposed to unnoble democracy? ;) ;)

Its really the same.

tow_stalin:

ha, poland has over than 1000 years of history, but - was it also history of poles?

Who's history was it then?

Seanus:

Militarily, Sok? Is Poland as strong as it could be?

No of course not but then again no european country is.

tow_stalin:

in mine opinion our nation is rebuilding right now - we have chance to leave behind our difficult history.

Stupidest thing to do, leaving your own history behind.

♂

Aug 17, 10, 18:06 #14

Sokrates:

people who say Poland is a young country mean so socially or politically.

Sokrates:

The only area i can imagine Poland needs to catch up is economy, in every other its on par

Sokrates:

Polish nation existed continously as a distinct entity for 1000 years

Sokrates:

*all the other jingoistic garbage Sokrates wrote here*

Nation and country, who's playing the newspeak game now? Yes, I'm talking about socially and politically. Poland has a VERY weak idea of democracy (an elected president with no power, and an unelected Prime Minister with positions given through a faulty system of Electoral Lists?); a weakness mainly signalled by the 13 Prime Ministers you've had in 20 years. That's not a sign of stable politics at all.

If Poland were economically stable, it would not be so heavily dependant on EU handouts and Regional Development funding to get its industry off the ground. It would not have governments propping up its two Heavy Industries of ship-building and mining, it would not have a completely foreign-owned banking sector, it would not still be mired in a potential 38billion-zloty land ownership case for victims of WWII and Communism, IF it were a fully developed country (NOT nation, there is a difference.)

Sokrates:

why do you assume Poland is trying to find anything

Because I remember Kaczynski's comment to Germany regarding proportional voting in the EU, and that despite all the positive indications Poland's voice still counts for a little less than f*ck-all in the Union on which its livelihood depends.

I do like this country, Sokrates, but you're being overly defensive. If Poland isn't young, then why is it still "developing" (rather than being a Developed country.) If it's not in the Developing category, why is it still taking so much money from other countries?

♂ [Suspended]

Aug 17, 10, 18:18 #15

Richfilth:

Nation and country, who's playing the newspeak game now? Yes, I'm talking about socially and politically. Poland has a VERY weak idea of democracy (an elected president with no power, and an unelected Prime Minister with positions given through a faulty system of Electoral Lists?); a weakness mainly signalled by the 13 Prime Ministers you've had in 20 years. That's not a sign of stable politics at all.

See i figured you're uneducated now i know you're not, research presidential and parliamentary systems and the difference between the two, Polands presidential prerogatives have f*ck all to do with stability they're just a feature of the system but you'd have to know what you're talking about to actually realise that.

Richfilth:

I do like this country, Sokrates, but you're being overly defensive. If Poland isn't young, then why is it still "developing"

I can appreciate that, Lord knows Poland is not like worldwide because Europe does not like the poor but please try and learn something before forming an opinion in the future.

Poland is developing because it got nuked during WW2 more than any other country and was not allowed to recover for the following 40~ years, Poland is recovering from WW2 and from communism and it has nothing to do with it being young since being 1000 years old its clearly not young and everything to do with it being raped by neighbours and then forgotten by Europe.

Richfilth:

why is it still taking so much money from other countries?

Its not, we could go about how EU is not really giving Poland as much money but personally i believe we deserve it, Europe betrayed us and forgot us, if i had the power i'd milk Europe for all i can.

As to why, see above, we were destroyed by Germany, occupied by Russia and forgotten by the West, everyone else scrubbed each others backs while we were swept aside.

♀

Edited by: CacyUlcia Aug 17, 10, 18:43 #16

warszawski:

Primarily " Poland is **** and the UK/America is better".

warszawski:

we must not forget that PL circa 1989 is still a small child growing and must be allowed to fall down many times before it will stand firmly.

Mnay people in both countries think that Poles are racist but these are the people who also think that their America or UK is a better place to live than the humble living in Poland, so who in reality is being racist. Let's not forget about all the historic wars that went on in America or UK over religion or skin color and compare them to the wars in Poland.

Poland has its prisons, but I've seen and learned about many sub cultures in both countries and from experience I can say that you will find a lot more purity and innocence in Poland than in America. Freedom and wealth is ok, but too much of it can spoil any country as well as destroy families and relations with other countries.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 18:58 #17
Sokrates: solid 2 centuries earlier than every other european nation Actually a lot of European countries became a democracy in 1848 after the revolutions of that year. So a solid 50 to 70 years would be more correct. >^..^< M-G (tiens)

♂

Edited by: peterweg Aug 17, 10, 19:04 #18

Richfilth:

Daily mash

BLAIR SETS GREAT EXAMPLE TO CHILDREN WHO WANT TO KILL PEOPLE

TONY BLAIR was today hailed as a role model for children who want to kill thousands of people when they grow up.

In a move described as both inspirational and typical, the former prime minister pledged the £4.6m advance from his novel to the victims of his shabby dishonesty and obsession with remote control violence.

[url=http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/blair-sets-great-exam ple-to-children-who-want-to-kill-people-201008163006/][/url]

♂

Aug 17, 10, 19:27 #19

Sokrates:

...everything to do with it being raped by neighbours and then forgotten by Europe.

It's exactly this attitude that is stopping Poland from developing any further. It won't develop your own industries (no, Poland can't survive on its own, it NEEDS to export to Germany or it will wither and die in a year) because it believes* it deserves handouts from the West. It won't resolve the land issues because why should it, Germany and Russia caused it all, why should Poland have to clean up their mess? Yes, our politicians still fight like children, but they've only had 20 years to get all their frustration out of their systems, that's not enough time at all.

Yes, the rest of the world took a sh!t on Poland for centuries. But putting a peg over your nose and crying a lot won't make them clean it up. That's what's intended by "letting go of the past."

It's a bit like all these people who got flooded this summer. If you visited their house in 20 years' time and said "urgh, what's that brown stuff on the wall?" how would you react if they said "oh, we were flooded in 2010, we haven't had a chance to clean it yet..."

* I believe it too, but only to stop France getting the money instead.

♂

Aug 17, 10, 20:51 #20

Sokrates:

Because after 1000 years Poland is a small child, dude you havent got a clue i know you wanted it to come off positive but Poland is neither a young nation nor a small child.

Poland ( Polska), officially the Republic of Poland (Rzeczpospolita Polska), is a country in Central Europe, bordered by Germany to the west; the Czech Republic and Slovakia to the south; Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania to the east; and the Baltic Sea and Kaliningrad Oblast, a Russian exclave, to the north. The total area of Poland is 312,679 square kilometres (120,726 sq mi),making it the 69th largest country in the world and the 9th largest in Europe. Poland has a population of over 38 million people,which makes it the 34th most populous country in the world and the sixth most populous member of the European Union.

The establishment of a Polish state is often identified with the adoption of Christianity by its ruler Mieszko I in 966, when the state covered territory similar to that of present-day Poland. The Kingdom of Poland was formed in 1025, and in 1569 it cemented a long association with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania by signing the Union of Lublin, forming the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Commonwealth collapsed in 1795, and Poland's territory was partitioned among the Kingdom of Prussia, the Russian Empire, and Austria. Poland regained its independence as the Second Polish Republic in 1918, after World War I, but two decades later it was occupied by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union at the outbreak of World War II in September 1939. Poland lost over six million citizens in the war and emerged several years later as the People's Republic of Poland under Soviet influence.

During the Revolutions of 1989, communist rule was overthrown, and soon after Poland became what is constitutionally known as the "Third Polish Republic". Poland is a unitary state, made up of sixteen Voivodeship, Poland is a member of the European Union, NATO, the United Nations, the World Trade Organization, and the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

For the benefit of Sokrates " In order to grow you have to let go " is focused on the "Third Polish Republic" which is circa 1989.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 20:59 #21
Sokrates, please answer me this. It's a simple question but there we go. Why did Poland have a communist PM for 22 years in Cyrankiewicz? It should be a bread and butter question for a Pole but let's see from which tack you approach it.

king polkakamonThreads: 1 Posts: 1,018 Joined: Dec 30, 09 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 20:59 #22
Sokrates: he only area i can imagine Poland needs to catch up is economy, And gay rights if you forget.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,386 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 21:10 #23
king polkakamon: And gay rights if you forget. Here come the cockroaches with their personal issues.

♂

Edited by: warszawski Aug 17, 10, 22:16 #24

Vast reserves of shale gas lying under Poland could free Western Europe from its dependence on Russian natural gas in the future with the help of recent advances in American extraction technology.

According to the Times, energy consultants Wood Mackenzie estimate up to 1.36 trillion cubic metres of unconventional shale gas could be lying under northern and central Poland. If the find is confirmed it will increase the EU's reserves by 47 per cent and offer a more reliable alternative to Russia's vast natural gas supplies. ConocoPhillips is planning to start drilling near Gdansk and will be followed ExxonMobil.

The EU's dependence on gas from the Russian state monopoly Gazprom has long been a cause of concern. In 2009 Europe is thought to have imported around 33 per cent of its gas from Russia. While Britain is not yet dependent on supplies from Moscow, it will begin importing substantial quantities via Nord Stream, a new Gazprom-owned pipeline, by 2012.

Russia has already proven itself willing to use its gas reserves as a weapon in diplomatic negotiations. Meanwhile, there is concern that the Gas Exporting Countries Forum (GECF), which includes Russia, Algeria and in the future could also include Poland, could one day become a "gas OPEC", able to set quotas and prices as the oil cartel does.

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,997 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 23:10 #25
Socrates wrote: In what areas? The only area i can imagine Poland needs to catch up is economy, in every other its on par. isn't economy...........?.........i mean.....................shouldn't...........that's an area that.............. ok.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Aug 18, 10, 04:54 #26
Seanus: Sokrates, please answer me this. It's a simple question but there we go. Why did Poland have a communist PM for 22 years in Cyrankiewicz? It should be a bread and butter question for a Pole but let's see from which tack you approach it. Because it was occupied by the f*cking Red Army and the Red Army was not going to have any other than a commie?

♂

Edited by: tow_stalin Aug 18, 10, 08:09 #27

Sokrates:

Stupidest thing to do, leaving your own history behind.

leaving, but not forget. i understand leaving history behind as not making the same mistakes again, especially when talking about last 200-300 years... in other words, we should leave this sad period of history and start new one.

reg.
tow.stalin.

Richfilth:

If Poland were economically stable, it would not be so heavily dependant on EU handouts and Regional Development funding to get its industry off the ground.

what? polish economy is quite stable due to large internal market. we aren't so dependent on international financial markets like others developed economies - we didn't have access to cheap money like eg. - usa which caused mortgage disaster. when talking about eu funds - EVERYONE in eu is depends on them, more or less, but everyone in eu. and by the way - polish industry was get off the ground by international and domestic investors, not so much by eu funds.

♂

Aug 18, 10, 08:15 #28

Sokrates:

Seanus:
As opposed to unnoble democracy? ;) ;)

Its really the same.

noble democracy is the same as democracy? wtf dude? and you pride yourself in being this big history buff yet you don't get the huge difference between the two?

Richfilth:

If Poland were economically stable, it would not be so heavily dependant on EU handouts and Regional Development funding to get its industry off the ground. It would not have governments propping up its two Heavy Industries of ship-building and mining, it would not have a completely foreign-owned banking sector, it would not still be mired in a potential 38billion-zloty land ownership case for victims of WWII and Communism, IF it were a fully developed country (NOT nation, there is a difference.)

you are muddling things quite a bit here.. i'm sure sok already addressed most of it by now.

Sokrates:

Richfilth:
why is it still taking so much money from other countries?

Its not, we could go about how EU is not really giving Poland as much money but personally i believe we deserve it, Europe betrayed us and forgot us, if i had the power i'd milk Europe for all i can.

As to why, see above, we were destroyed by Germany, occupied by Russia and forgotten by the West, everyone else scrubbed each others backs while we were swept aside.

still, PL is getting in flow of cash from EU.. can't deny that.

CacyUlcia:

Mnay people in both countries think that Poles are racist but these are the people who also think that their America or UK is a better place to live than the humble living in Poland, so who in reality is being racist. Let's not forget about all the historic wars that went on in America or UK over religion or skin color and compare them to the wars in Poland.

many poles are racist, that is a fact.. as to comparing to wars in other countries.. not really comparable.. although there was plenty of hatred of jews or uki or whomever in PL too..

CacyUlcia:

I can say that you will find a lot more purity and innocence in Poland than in America.

thus the term "developing" or as sok wants to have it "recovering"

Richfilth:

It's exactly this attitude that is stopping Poland from developing any further.

it's the truth.. you can't deny it..

Richfilth:

It won't resolve the land issues because why should it,

which issues are you talking about here?

Richfilth:

(no, Poland can't survive on its own, it NEEDS to export to Germany or it will wither and die in a year)

it is true of almost every country in the eworld.. maybe except a handful or so..

warszawski:

Vast reserves of shale gas lying under Poland could free Western Europe from its dependence on Russian natural gas in the future with the help of recent advances in American extraction technology.

According to the Times, energy consultants Wood Mackenzie estimate up to 1.36 trillion cubic metres of unconventional shale gas could be lying under northern and central Poland. If the find is confirmed it will increase the EU's reserves by 47 per cent and offer a more reliable alternative to Russia's vast natural gas supplies. ConocoPhillips is planning to start drilling near Gdansk and will be followed ExxonMobil.

The EU's dependence on gas from the Russian state monopoly Gazprom has long been a cause of concern. In 2009 Europe is thought to have imported around 33 per cent of its gas from Russia. While Britain is not yet dependent on supplies from Moscow, it will begin importing substantial quantities via Nord Stream, a new Gazprom-owned pipeline, by 2012.

Russia has already proven itself willing to use its gas reserves as a weapon in diplomatic negotiations. Meanwhile, there is concern that the Gas Exporting Countries Forum (GECF), which includes Russia, Algeria and in the future could also include Poland, could one day become a "gas OPEC", able to set quotas and prices as the oil cartel does.

still a big fat MAYBE.. don't count your chickens before they hatch

Sokrates:

Because it was occupied by the f*cking Red Army and the Red Army was not going to have any other than a commie?

the red army occupied poland the whole 44 years?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 09:56 #29
Also, only commie PMs served that whole time? Sok, do a comparative study between some countries to see the difference between noble democracy and 'unnoble' democracy :)

♂

Edited by: warszawski Aug 18, 10, 11:06 #30

tow_stalin:

polish industry was get off the ground by international and domestic investors, not so much by eu funds.

Poland was not part of the EU until 2004, by that time the American,British,French and Germany investors had a firm foothold in Poland, without foreign direct investment, Poland could not survive. The only things that interested foreign investors are the domestic market of 38 million people and cheap labour both skilled and unskilled. Furthermore during this period the profits from the international company's were repatriated to the holding company outside of poland.

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