Are Polish roads really this bad?

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Apr 8, 11, 01:56 #1

I'm watching TVP "wiadomosci"(news) and the reporter is doing an expose' on pathetic state of the roads. I can't beleive it. During my PRL-time, the roads were narrow and you had to share with TIRy, tractors and horse-drawn wagons BUT they were well-paved and maintained(at least in my part of the country). The roads are full of potholes. Is this accurate? If so, wtf happened? How can Poland do business this way? Maybe I'm being naive but I would've thought the transportation network would be a priority for the government.

SebastianThreads: 8 Posts: 129 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 03:35 #2
Western Polands roads appear to be getting better, and by 2013 there should be much more motorways and roads of good quality. However, eastern Poland still has ****** roads, and construction has not even started over there.

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,229 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 04:08 #3
Sebastian: Western Polands roads appear to be getting better, and by 2013 there should be much more motorways and roads of good quality. However, eastern Poland still has ****** roads, and construction has not even started over there. So, why is that? Is it due to lack of funds? lack of resolve? lack of insight? typical Polish inability to unify?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 04:24 #4
In the country with little to no geographical obstacles that might be helpful in the defense of the territory, bad roads could actually be a good thing ;)

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Apr 8, 11, 04:33 #5

z_darius:

In the country with little to no geographical obstacles that might be helpful in the defense of the territory, bad roads could actually be a good thing ;)

in this day of drone missles it's truly a moot point. I'm talking about economic development ala USA(interstate highway system) and Germany(autobahns). Getting goods in and out quickly/safely is what all highly developed countries have in common.

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Edited by: z_darius Apr 8, 11, 04:53 #6

rybnik:

in this day of drone missles it's truly a moot point.

if the objective of an attack is just destruction then it would appear that using them against Poland's communication infrastructure would be very much a mute point too :)

rybnik:

I'm talking about economic development ala USA(interstate highway system) and Germany(autobahns). Getting goods in and out quickly/safely is what all highly developed countries have in common.

M take is a little different. In the current economic climate and with dwindling resources to power the vehicles I'd bet on the railway system. Sure, you'd still need decent local roads, and perhaps a small number of cross country ones.

As for the reasons? As you noticed, during commie times the roads were in decent repair. Could it be that during communism the degree and scale of fraud and corruption was smaller than afforded by corporatism?

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,229 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 04:56 #7
z_darius: As for the reasons? As you noticed, during commie times the roads were in decent repair. Could it be that during communism the degree and scale of fraud and corruption was smaller than afforded by corporatism? BAM! (the light bulb goes on over his head) Very interesting comment z... hmmm...

Blarg	Apr 8, 11, 05:32 #8
Polish government too busy selling the land to israel. During commie times roads didn't exist, luckily you didn't need them because noone could afford cars anyways. I think it's quite clear what is happening, proximity to glorious germany(the finest nation in europe) dictates the quality of infrastructure.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 05:34 #9
Blarg: During commie times roads didn't exist, luckily you didn't need them because noone could afford cars anyways. Wrong on both counts. The roads weren't 1st class but they were in very good shape and repaired on a regular basis. As for cars, we could aford the domestic ones easilly. The problem was they couldn't produce enough for the domestic market.

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Apr 8, 11, 05:38 #10

Blarg:

Polish government too busy selling the land to israel.

During commie times roads didn't exist, luckily you didn't need them because noone could afford cars anyways.

I think it's quite clear what is happening, proximity to glorious germany(the finest nation in europe) dictates the quality of infrastructure.

you're funny. You see, the roads that are in disrepair ARE the same commie roads. That's the point: very few new roads and the existing roads are all beat up.....You're right about the cars. I'm sure there are more cars on the road nowadays=more wear-and-tear.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 06:01 #11
rybnik: I'm sure there are more cars on the road nowadays=more wear-and-tear. another good lead. More wear and tear so just keeping up is more exensive. Add to that the need for more roads, mix it with lack of funds, throw in a few fighter jets that Poland absolutely needs to help helpless Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we're geting a little close to understanding the reasons.

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Apr 8, 11, 08:30 #12

Sebastian:

Western Polands roads appear to be getting better, and by 2013 there should be much more motorways and roads of good quality. However, eastern Poland still has ****** roads, and construction has not even started over there.

Actually they are making a highway from Bialystok that will connect to Warsaw. Here in Lomza they are already starting a lot of in town roadwork and the last few years they have done a lot of between town work, making new bus stops and widening roads a bit.
Of course it could be more and better but they are working on it.

My main problem with Polish roads are that when they redo old roads they use ****** materials that break down and wear very easily resulting in them needing to be done again much sooner that roads stateside. I also really wish they would get these highways done quickly...the TIR's (semi trucks) are killing the roads, the indentations their overloaded load leaves are a killer.

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Edited by: warszawski Apr 8, 11, 08:32 #13

z_darius:

The roads weren't 1st class but they were in very good shape and repaired on a regular basis.
As for cars, we could aford the domestic ones easilly. The problem was they couldn't produce enough for the domestic market.

Drive across the border to the Ukraine, you will never complain again, about the quality of Polish road. The roads in PL are getting better all the time, with more highways under construction and planned. Recently, a number of articles about corruption in the press, exposing the practice, of handing out contracts to small management company's who then outsource and so on (skimming). Your reporter may have been talking about the state of the roads after winter, this year was quite cold, so the elements took there toll, now there are a lot of potholes that need to be repaired. The train system that is another story.

dhrynioThreads: 4 Posts: 52 Joined: Jun 8, 08 ♀	Apr 8, 11, 08:37 #14
Very true about this winter, it took it's toll up this way for sure.

cmsThreads: 6 Posts: 201 Joined: Sep 4, 09 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 12:22 #15
So Poland should benchmark itself against the Ukraine ? Surely more sense to compare to Czech or Hungary who joined the EU at the same time and had the same time to adjust in the 90s. Their roads are much better.

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,229 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 13:03 #16
dhrynio: the TIR's (semi trucks) are killing the roads, the indentations their overloaded load leaves are a killer. Do you weigh your trucks(as in the States)?

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Apr 8, 11, 13:32 #17

cms:

Surely more sense to compare to Czech or Hungary who joined the EU at the same time and had the same time to adjust in the 90s. Their roads are much better.

I travelled the roads in Czech, before 2004 and the standard of roads were better in 2002, than they are today in Poland, so lets get the facts right.

How is it possible to compare a country the size of Czech to Poland, it beggar's belief

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Apr 8, 11, 13:32 #18

warszawski:

Drive across the border to the Ukraine, you will never complain again, about the quality of Polish road.

I second that , Polish roads are wonderfull compared to the rutted , pot holed mess that passes for a road in Ukraine....Belarus is even worse...

Try driving on the road from Dorahusk Poland to Kiev , this is not some minor country lane , its the main motorway to a big city...Its smooth in places , where they have put a new surface down , but there are long stretches maybe 30 kms in length where you risk serious suspension damage if you try to drive at more than 25 kph...This does not seem to deter the Ukrainians from driving at 90 kph on the road....

Take a trip to Ukraine....you will see that Polish roads are lovely....

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: jwojcie Apr 8, 11, 14:11 #19
Some are good some are bad. Here is a quite reliable map maintained by polish forumers of www.skyscrapercity.com green - very good, .. red - very bad blue - build/rebuild grey - no data (no report by a forumer) I think somewhere on http://www.gddkia.gov.pl there is an official map on the same topic.

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Apr 8, 11, 16:38 #20

rybnik:

So, why is that? Is it due to lack of funds? lack of resolve? lack of insight? typical Polish inability to unify?

it's down to greedy landowners who won't sell their land at market value. thus holding up the building process.

also, it takes so long to realize things that the landscape has changed by the time it gets done.

twenty-five years to build the wroclaw bypass and it's still not finished. the plan is so old that the city has grown beyond the actual road. it doesn't go round the city in all parts. it goes through it.

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Apr 8, 11, 17:32 #21

Merged thread:
The Polish roads

http://polandpoland.com/driving_poland.html regarding that site, is what's written there accurate?

If so, what the hell is wrong with this country? I'm happy I don't have a drivers license so no need to experience driving here but living in a larger metropolitan area I have to wonder over the competence of these city planers when in smack middle of the city there are unpaved dirt roads with gigantic mud puddles and potholes.

And if ever I see any infrastructure improvements it's with an EU billboard sign next to it. Is Poland too poor to have the "basics" done right? Is it incompetence? If so, are the Polish in charge of planning and building roads? Because giving Poland money to ****** seems dumb then. Is it inexperience of running their own country? Do they hire foreign contractors? Or is there some national pride against that?

I am not trying to be insulting but I find a lot of life in Poland quite frankly baffling!

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Apr 8, 11, 17:57 #22

From what I can see on our local country roads, I would guess the problems start with poor quality materials and poor construction.
And I don't know a thing about road-building so of course this is all my opinion :)

The quality of the tarmac isn't great - cheap fixes done by Gmina on top of equally cheap original surfaces.
Very heavy traffic - lack of a decent 'A road' network with bypasses means that heavy trucks are pounding through villages continuously.
The edges aren't finished -- they run off into packed earth - so of course they get eroded very quickly especially during the cold, snowy winters.
This year whenever the snow melted the pot-holes were horrible. i've already had a 3-4 inch part of a rim bent out of shape because I bounced through something - and trust me, i'm a fuddy-duddy type of driver. Gmina came out and tried to 'address' a kilometre patch going into the local village -- i think they probably ran out of money to resurface so they just scraped off the top surface ... perhaps believing that a shallower hole can be achieved by more ways than filling it :P
On the way home I turn off a main road (going between two Gmina centres) immediately unto a dirt track which of course liquifies when the snow melts. That's the part of the road problem I have most issue with - finding my car up to its oxters in mud and nothing to do but swim off in search of a tractor.

today it's very windy - splendid for drying off the road home ...

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Apr 8, 11, 20:39 #23

I think that local authorities sign those contests for building roads and the cheapest one always winns. Suddenly the company cant do it they just wanted to win the contest so to cut costs or increase profit we will get cheaper resources. In the winter water falls from the sky freezes and crack then we will add some salt so it wont slippery it melts more water falls and another crack. In spring they have to make another contest so governors brother in law can have more work and more profit and then another winter comes and so on and so on ... nobody controls it and if they do they get shares in the profit ... until tvn24 reporter sniffs something then eventually 1 of 1000 will get cought. People will get angry the parlament will start a commision, people will calm down, populists will win the elections but the road is still crackin'

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 8, 11, 20:48 #24
NrthPznnDvsn: I think that local authorities sign those contests for building roads and the cheapest one always winns. Suddenly the company cant do it they just wanted to win the contest so to cut costs or increase profit we will get cheaper resources. I think you might want to start by looking at EU tendering law.

alexw68	Apr 8, 11, 21:05 #25
delphiandomine: I think you might want to start by looking at EU tendering law. Maybe. But as an explanation of the actual practice, he's on the money. And not just in PL. Any tendering process is fraught with moral hazard - what usually happens, though, is the contracts are written in such a way that costly change management is permitted, and whoosh, over time and over budget we go.

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Apr 8, 11, 21:12 #26

dhrynio:

My main problem with Polish roads are that when they redo old roads they use ****** materials that break down and wear very easily

It's not the materials it's that most roads are asphalt not concrete, like in the west. A new asphalt road can have many pot holes and cracks even after just one winter, and in Poland they can be long and severe. Concrete roads are much more durable and 2 or 3 times more expensive.

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 21:13 #27
cjj: That's the part of the road problem I have most issue with - finding my car up to its oxters in mud and nothing to do but swim off in search of a tractor. You need a Jeep or a Landrover....

NrthPznnDvsnThreads: 1 Posts: 35 Joined: Apr 8, 11 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 21:28 #28
PennBoy: It's not the materials it's that most roads are asphalt not concrete, like in the west. A new asphalt road can have many pot holes and cracks even after just one winter, and in Poland they can be long and severe. Concrete roads are much more durable and 2 or 3 times more expensive. So the real problem is the asphalt lobby, someone has to inform the press... .

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 8, 11, 21:58 #29
alexw68: Any tendering process is fraught with moral hazard - what usually happens, though, is the contracts are written in such a way that costly change management is permitted, and whoosh, over time and over budget we go. See also : UK IT projects?

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Apr 8, 11, 22:00 #30
Roads in and around Olsztyn only have one pothole. The problem is that there are quite a lot of pieces of road sticking out of it. A couple of years ago it was the 650th anniversary of Olsztyn. Some people suspect that one way of commemorating this was to allow the roads to return to the condition they were in 650 years before.

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