Are Polish roads really this bad?

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Dec 23, 11, 14:23 #181

delphiandomine:

Przemysl to Sanok is one hell of a fun road though - that bit when it climbs up with hairpins is "interesting".

Doing the downhill hairpins during a summer storm with lightning cracking all over the place is fun too.

delphiandomine:

the powers that be have absolutely no interest in opening up that part of Poland.

Suits me, I'd like it kept quiet. I'm dreading the day that the airport in Lublin opens and British stag night scum start pouring into the place.

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,986 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 14:29 #182
Speaking in broad comparative terms, taking into account overall distances and overall traffic, roads running east to west in my experience always seem to be in better repair than roads running north south. anyone else notice this?

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 15:51 #183
Foreigner4: anyone else notice this? Yes - especially the roads running east of Warsaw.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 23, 11, 15:59 #184
JonnyM: Yes - especially the roads running east of Warsaw. Are you joking?! The roads running east of Warsaw are among the worst in Poland! The only worse ones are those running north south in the east. Oh, and the roads running from Wlodawa to pretty much anywhere.

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Edited by: ReservoirDog Dec 23, 11, 16:59 #185

Polish roads are still bad. Bad is the quality of materials: low aggregate / stone and a lot of tar - it shows the color of the road. By the poor quality of road materials (new roads looks great) after two or three years has folds, is patched. Construction and maintenance of roads in Poland is also more expensive than in some countries (Spain, Greece) where climate is stable. In Poland, the temperature range from - 20 in winter to about 30 in summer. In winter, the holes in the road are created by freezing water in cracks, folds are formed in the summer by the weight of cars. It's as if in winter and summer we drive a car on summer tires and vice versa.
What else? there are so many trucks on the road, where speed is usually lower for them than the permitted speed for passenger cars. I live in the area of national road No. 7, although if it had two lanes ... Damn, in the south hey have the road called Gierkówka. Two-lane road here where I live is only from Warsaw to Plonsk, and then only in Elblag's surroundings. If somebody is a little goes then passing 11 hours is nothing extraordinary, but when someone wants to go on a weekend or more often then it is a problem : ). Passing that way to me from point A to point B, 240 km away, takes 4 hours so average speed is 60 km /h.

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,986 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 17:18 #186
JonnyM: Yes - especially the roads running east of Warsaw. do you mean those running north-south which are east of Warsaw?

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 17:20 #187
Mostly the East-West routes

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,229 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 17:21 #188
irishguy11: the motorways between Kraokow/Katowice extend that to Wrocław. I was simply very impressed with the roadway. Very nice indeed.

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,986 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 17:25 #189
I think all major roads should be toll roads here, or there should be the vignette system- pay to use basically. Thoughts?

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Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 23, 11, 17:33 #190

ReservoirDog:

What else? there are so many trucks on the road, where speed is usually lower for them than the permitted speed for passenger cars.

That's a consequence of being a major transit route, both north-south and west-east.

Foreigner4:

I think all major roads should be toll roads here, or there should be the vignette system- pay to use basically. Thoughts?

Hard to say really - I think tolling does make sense in Poland, because it's concentrated on the major motorways. Vignettes only make sense if there's significant transit traffic on all routes - in Poland, cars only really transit along the A4/A2 which are tolled/will be tolled anyway - and trucks are obliged to use the ViaToll system which covers all motorways/main roads anyway.

I don't really see much wrong with the existing plans - except perhaps that Warsaw-Krakow should be covered by tolling (and made full motorway).

Vignettes are also a positive pain if you're not going far - for example, Brno-Bratislava requires a Slovak vignette for all of 50km or so, with no transit vignette available.

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,229 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 17:45 #191
Foreigner4: the vignette system Please explain this "vignette system"

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Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 23, 11, 17:50 #192

rybnik:

Please explain this "vignette system"

Basically, to use expressways and motorways in many European countries (especially smaller ones) - you need to purchase a sticker that goes on the windscreen, known as a "vignette". Normally, they're sold for 7 days, a month and a year - though the duration does vary. The idea is that short term visitors are punished, while the cost is affordable for year-long versions.

Slovenia has a brutal one for instance - 15 euro for a week, 30 euro for a month or 95 euro for a year. You can see that the country is a major transit route - and so - they fund their entire road system through the summer transit traffic. Yet those living there aren't really suffering because of it. The yearly vignette is also valid for 14, not 12 months - so it's an even better deal for those living there. They - understandably - want to reduce traffic driving through Slovenia.

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,986 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Edited by: Foreigner4 Dec 23, 11, 17:50 #193
(edit- delph beat me to it) ^basically a sticker that you post on your windscreen which shows you've paid to use the road you're on for x period of time delph - interadasting, so you don't think it'd be a better source of road maintenance revenue?

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Dec 23, 11, 17:52 #194

Foreigner4:

delph - interadasting, so you don't think it'd be a better source of road maintenance revenue?

The problem is that much of the country is still nowhere near roads that would traditionally be included in a vignette - for instance, much of what I drive "normally" is on normal DK roads and not on S/A roads. It also only makes sense if the roads are all built by the state - but they aren't.

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,229 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Dec 23, 11, 17:55 #195
Thank you Delph and F4

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Dec 23, 11, 18:05 #196

delphiandomine:

The problem is that much of the country is still nowhere near roads that would traditionally be included in a vignette - for instance, much of what I drive "normally" is on normal DK roads and not on S/A roads. It also only makes sense if the roads are all built by the state - but they aren't.

I see your point. So what, in your opinion, is the best solution given the current scenario?

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Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 23, 11, 18:12 #197

Foreigner4:

I see your point. So what, in your opinion, is the best solution given the current scenario?

Best solution for now is to carry on with the existing approach - much of the pre-planning has been done, although I'd probably slap on tolls on the S5 Poznan-Wroclaw corridor in order to get it built earlier. Same could apply to the S8 from Warsaw-Krakow. The concession periods are for 30 years (I think) - at which point the roads return to the State. At that point, I'd bring in a vignette system - all the major roads will be built.

Could be one option to bring in yearly vignettes for GDDKiA-operated motorways while retaining tolls for casual users, though. I'd also look at bringing in transit-vignettes for the A4 between Zgorzelec and Krzyzowa - very little traffic is not heading across the border at that point.

There's also another issue with vignettes - it was mentioned to me by a senior engineer at Autostrada Wielkopolska that frequent toll booths (every 100km or so) are actually more desirable, as they prevent drivers from becoming mesmerised on long drives. That's perhaps one reason to retain the tolls and not switch to a vignette system.

Worth pointing out that the road surfaces on new roads tend to be fine.

ReservoirDogThreads: - Posts: 220 Joined: Nov 22, 11 ♀	Dec 23, 11, 18:42 #198
That's a consequence of being a major transit route, both north-south and west-east. realy?? ;) but do I have any alternative?? :/ from Warsow to Płonsk is o.k, at least at night or in the middle of the day. Mojor transit rout with one road lane for each direction and to share with trucks...that's something.

Peter Cracow

Dec 24, 11, 19:25 #199

Country/National roads (DK) class: A, S, GP and G are getting better. They have been extensively rebuilded and modernizaded since 90'. Now only about 20% of them is in bad condition. Example: DK4 Cracow-Lancut, A4, S7.
Provincional roads (DW) class: GP, G, Z are in worse condition but they are under reconstruction now. Example: Myslenice-Lapczyca, Cracow-Busko.
County and commune roads (DP, DG) class: G, Z, L, D sometimes looks in fact like Iwo Jima warzone. Cities and villages are mostly in bad economic condition.
What more, under Russian domination road, building and engineering standards were incomparably low because of money saving needs. For example all existed motorways sections, road bridges, main roads, etc. had to be deeply modernizated after 1990.
Some roads in Cracow and around reminds me areas after heavy bombardment what is irony of fate because Cracow was never bombarded, even during WW1 or WW2. Many roads were rebuilt but there is still a lot of work to do. I work in the centre of Cracow and my office is in the street consisted of a strange mixture of cobblestones and tarmac. You can't name it pitholes, more Carpathians! This road haven't been repaved for a half of the century I believe!

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: jwojcie Dec 27, 11, 21:01 #200
State of Polish roads according to SCC forumers (as of 12.12.2011) http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1310317&highlight=stan+ polskich+dr%F3g green - good red - bad blue - under construction State of Polish roads according to State Road Agency (from 2010):

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,440 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Dec 27, 11, 21:12 #201
jwojcie: State of Polish roads according to State Road Agency (from 2010) Thanx for the map. Wow Swietokrzyskie 3/4 good roads I remember they used to have awful roads driving to Kielce from the east back in the 90s.

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Dec 28, 11, 01:24 #202

jwojcie:

State of Polish roads according to SCC forumers (as of 12.12.2011)

Final say - I'd say. They tend to be utterly obsessive about this, and I trust them.

However, they seem to be actually somewhat conservative - I drive between Poznan and Oborniki Wlkp. every day (I work there) - and the road is in excellent condition. If I drive at night, I can sit at a steady 100-110km/h.

PennBoy:

Thanx for the map. Wow Swietokrzyskie 3/4 good roads I remember they used to have awful roads driving to Kielce from the east back in the 90s.

You'd be surprised how much is decent really - even the bit of DK5 between Poznan and Wroclaw that's listed as "bad" isn't that bad at all - it's just a bit bumpy, but you can sit at a steady 90-100km/h there without fuss/danger of breaking your car.

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Feb 13, 12, 16:51 #203

delphiandomine:

ou'd be surprised how much is decent really - even the bit of DK5 between Poznan and Wroclaw that's listed as "bad" isn't that bad at all - it's just a bit bumpy, but you can sit at a steady 90-100km/h there without fuss/danger of breaking your car.

Yea knowing fully well how awful Polish roads used to be a 'bit bumpy' should be listed as decent. I've had a talk with a friend, an older guy, who used to be a taxi driver in Warsaw for 20 years, he also lived in Germany and The Netherlands, about which country has the best freeways. He said America hands down. Cities like Washington DC, LA, Dallas and many others, with the freeway systems, route interchanges and overpasses.

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Feb 13, 12, 16:57 #204

PennBoy:

He said America hands down. Cities like Washington DC, LA, Dallas and many others, with the freeway systems, route interchanges and overpasses.

Without a doubt. The only complaint I've ever heard about America is the speed limits are sometimes absurdly low.

Having said that, some European cities are doing well - Spain, and Madrid in particular has a pretty awesome network. Hungary is quite decent too (apart from the idiocy of the motorway towards Slovakia not being complete).

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Feb 13, 12, 17:19 #205

delphiandomine:

The only complaint I've ever heard about America is the speed limits are sometimes absurdly low.

You're right. In Pennsylvania or New Jersey the speed limit is 65 mph (105 km/h) but the police is pretty lenient and you can do 80 mph (129km/h) and not get pulled over. In over states like Illinois or Ohio where the speed limit is 70 mph, u can get stopped just for going 10 miles over it, so it's all on the state and how they enforce it.

delphiandomine:

some European cities are doing well - Spain, and Madrid in particular has a pretty awesome network.

My father who lived in Madrid until 1990 said the Spanish put the money they got from the EU to good use. The motorway system is great, The Madrid metro has splendid connections.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,440 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 18:56 #206
A2 Motorway from Nowy Tomyśl to Świecko...

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Apr 18, 12, 11:27 #207

Condition of national roads in Poland finally 2011.

SS1313Threads: 6 Posts: 18 Joined: Mar 15, 12 ♂	May 6, 12, 15:39 #208
Merged: Polish Roads Are Polish road quality improving? Are the getting safer? Is the infrastructure around the highway getting better? I love driving.. is it worth exploring Poland by Road...

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