Who is poor in Poland?

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Edited by: gumishu May 30, 11, 14:06 #91
Antek_Stalich: Quote Gumishu, big business is not for faint hearts. It is for gangsters and warriors and you better understand that. gangsters should spend their times in jail (if reeducation fails) - it's not imperative that we have big businesses Antek - the world will not collapse if one day there won't be people like Mr Rokke - btw the article in wikipedia says very little on Mr Rokkes -

♀

Edited by: milky May 30, 11, 14:20 #92

Monia:

Average and employed person aged 20 -60 in Poland lives the same life and has got the same living conditions as their counterparts in other EU countries . They eat and dress the same . No one makes any sacrifices , believe me .

you live in a fantasy world. This is simply not true.

Monia:

Married men sometimes work two jobs which is not uncommon .

yes,because things are so sh1t

Monia:

So average household income is more than 1500 Euro which is relatively high comparing to average EU

lol

Monia:

Don`t tell about poverty , hunger and stuff like that because it amuses me .

How did you get it so wrong. Maybe you won the lottery and live in London or something.

Monia	May 30, 11, 14:22 #93
Where do you live milky: Maybe you one the lottery and live in London or something. Where do you live ? Are you Polish ?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	May 30, 11, 14:29 #94
Monia: Where do you live ? Are you Polish ? Mark lives in Krakow and claims to have a Polish passport. In reality he is American and too lazy/stupid to get a real job and so he stays at home pretending to be an internet entrepreneur while his wife goes out and earns not enough money for them to ever be able to buy an apartment.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	May 30, 11, 14:29 #95
Monia simply never watches anything appart from soaps

♂

Edited by: Antek_Stalich May 30, 11, 14:31 #96

gumishu:

gangsters should spend their times in jail (if reeducation fails) - it's not imperative that we have big businesses Antek - the world will not collapse if one day there won't be people like Mr Rokke - btw the article in wikipedia says very little on Mr Rokkes -

Those "gangsters" give employment to millions and they drive the civilization forward. In ancient times, similar people were called Kings, aristocracy, gentry, at least in their origin.

BTW, every day, there is an article in Norwegian press "Aftenposten", 'VG" for example on Mr Rokke. He is extremely popular. Other top Norwegians may be richer than Rokke but they do not make much publicity.

Gumishu, you wrote (with a smile) that you want all Poles drive SUVs.
This is the song for you:

milkyThreads: 10 Posts: 1,225 Joined: Oct 26, 09 ♀	May 30, 11, 14:35 #97
Monia: Where do you live ? Are you Polish ? Closer to Polish reality than you, by the sounds of things.. What's happening in Home and Away these days?

Monia	May 30, 11, 14:44 #98
gumishu: Monia simply never watches anything appart from soaps You know that , boy ! To all those who complain I advise you to get a job , work hard and you will get there ; Poland is a land of many good opportunities but unfortunately for hard workers only .

♂

Edited by: gumishu May 30, 11, 15:13 #99

Antek_Stalich:

Those "gangsters" give employment to millions and they drive the civilization forward. In ancient times, similar people were called Kings, aristocracy, gentry, at least in their origin.

it's as if people can't organize to build a bridge for themselves or a dam - so much was built during commie times in Poland and no Rokkes were there -(I don't mean people organized themselves spontaneously to build those things) - I don't say we don't need any private enterpruneurship but capitalism is not just roses and sweets ya know - even if people like Mr Rokke are leading some civilization adavances (think of James Jerome Hill) they can still cause harm even if they don't mean to

Monia:

Poland is a land of many good opportunities but unfortunately for hard workers only .

yes, like Olejniks, Kluskas and the like

eeeh :)

ask yourself Monia, what happened to Mr Roman Kluska and why - you can start from wikipedia

Monia	May 30, 11, 15:20 #100
No, Poland is for honest , reliable hardworkers, but crooks are everywhere You have to agree

♂

Edited by: gumishu May 30, 11, 15:27 #101

Monia:

No, Poland is for honest , reliable hardworkers, but crooks are everywhere You have to agree

Monia, I know your time is precious, but please read the Polish wikipedia entry on Mr Kluska (which is not that big read after all) - Roman Kluska is no crook - http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Kluska

btw I have heard a joke on TV recently - 'Poland is the only country in the world where you need to give 2 million in bribes to earn your first million'

alexw68

Edited by: alexw68 May 30, 11, 15:34 #102

gumishu:

- Roman Kluska is no crook -

Maybe not. But Lepper is. Hundreds of jumacze who made it in the 90s and have cleaned up their act since were, and probably still are. As a lawyer Monia is well-placed to make this kind of observation, wouldn't you think?

And @milky: only a complete idiot would imagine that contemporary Polish life is anything like what you see in Klan and so on; that said, only someone who's been living under a rock for the last 15 years could fail to notice that many middle class professionals are doing just fine, thank you very much. Or are all the out-of-town houses and 4x4s owned by foreigners?

♂

Edited by: gumishu May 30, 11, 15:42 #103

Monia - btw what would you call Mr Misiak and his famed bill - Mr Misiak is a senator (ex PO) - have you heard of what happened to the shipyard property btw? - or can you explain why investigation against people like Henryk Stokłosa have been slowed down (until he finally got elected a senator in the by-election) - btw Mr Stokłosa was wanted in the times of PiS government http://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Stoklosa-poszukiwany-listem-gonczym-pr zebywa-za-granica-1547291.html - after PO came to power the legal institutions suddenly became much more lenient towards people like Henryk Stokłosa

Bzibzioh:

alexw68:
jumacze

???

jumacz from jumać - a thief (colloquialism stemming from criminal spheres)

still I wouldn't call white collar thiefs a jumacz - jumanie is rather an act of physical theft

♂

May 30, 11, 15:46 #104

You Gumishu mix the matter of activities of crooks against Kluska with his own activities. How do you think did Kluska earn his first million? Ever thought about it?

Now, take your mobile phone or a PC you are using to write on PF. Do you think that a spontaneous group of people could build such devices from scratch and so cheaply in addition to that? Or, perhaps industry and business are needed?

alexw68	May 30, 11, 15:51 #105
Bzibzioh: ??? You've not spent much time in the Ziemie odzyskane, evidently. Don't worry, you didn't miss out. Smuggling cigs, girls and CDs was de rigueur back in my day (90s). As was the standard jumacz uniform: short at the front, long at the back, Borussia Dortmund dres. And the funerals. I must have gone to at least 4. There was a lot of very bad driving by people with things to hide.

♂

Edited by: gumishu May 30, 11, 15:51 #106

Antek_Stalich:

Now, take your mobile phone or a PC you are using to write on PF. Do you think that a spontaneous group of people could build such devices from scratch and so cheaply in addition to that?

did I say private enteurpreunership is obsolete? I said:

gumishu:

I don't say we don't need any private enterpruneurship but capitalism is not just roses and sweets ya know - even if people like Mr Rokke are leading some civilization adavances (think of James Jerome Hill) they can still cause harm even if they don't mean to

Antek_Stalich:

You Gumishu mix the matter of activities of crooks against Kluska with his own activities.

how come? please do explain

Antek_Stalich:

How do you think did Kluska earn his first million?

do you suggest that he must have misused the system somehow?

alexw68:

Smuggling cigs, girls and CDs was de rigueur back in my day (90s). As was the standard jumacz uniform: short at the front, long at the back, Borussia Dortmund dres.

And the funerals. I must have gone to at least 4. There was a lot of very bad driving by people with things to hide.

how do you know these things so well - you're not Polish AFAIK?

alexw68	Edited by: alexw68 May 30, 11, 15:58 #107
gumishu: how do you know these things so well - you're not Polish AFAIK? Co z tego, ze Polakiem nie jestem? Trzeba byc na miejscu (mieszkalem w Gorzowie, wlasciwie, przez cztery lata) i miec oczy otwarte. I tyle. (Actually no, I'm kidding, I got it all off a rerun of Ross Kemp on Gangs.) :)

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	May 30, 11, 15:59 #108
alexw68: You've not spent much time in the Ziemie odzyskane, evidently. That, and no knowledge about gumishu: criminal spheres) combined, I guess. alexw68: Borussia Dortmund dres. Now you are killing me :s Brit explaining intricacies of Polish underworld to me ... I'm loving it ;)

♂

Edited by: Antek_Stalich May 30, 11, 16:04 #109

gumishu:

I said: gumishu: I don't say we don't need any private enterpruneurship but capitalism is not just roses and sweets ya know - even if people like Mr Rokke are leading some civilization adavances (think of James Jerome Hill) they can still cause harm even if they don't mean to

Check.

gumishu:

Antek_Stalich: You Gumishu mix the matter of activities of crooks against Kluska with his own activities.
how come? please do explain

Mr Kluska was mistreated, by abusing influences by certain competitors applied against Kluska, mafia style. However, we do not know very much of Kluska's own past activities to grow his own company; I simply don't believe he did 100% things cleanly himself in the past. Especially, own involvement of Kluska in politics later gives food for thoughts.

gumishu:

Antek_Stalich: How do you think did Kluska earn his first million?
do you suggest that he must have misused the system somehow?

He was the one of people who needed to do "original accumulation of capital". He had to have means to start and grow his company so fast. Certainly Kluska did not build his company on bank credit. He had to make money pre-1989.

How did Wilczek, Król, Solorz make their initial capital? There was a bid for the first independent TV station. Solorz won. Now think Gumishu, you are there. Where are you taking the money for Polsat from?

♂

May 30, 11, 16:11 #110

Antek_Stalich:

gumishu:
Antek_Stalich: How do you think did Kluska earn his first million?
do you suggest that he must have misused the system somehow?

He was the one of people who needed to do "original accumulation of capital". He had to have means to start and grow his company so fast. Certainly Kluska did not build his company on bank credit. He had to make money pre-1989.

on one hand you praise capitalists and on the other you insist they all need to mess with things so that they can earn serious money - isn't it self-contradicting

Antek_Stalich:

gumishu:
Antek_Stalich: You Gumishu mix the matter of activities of crooks against Kluska with his own activities.
how come? please do explain

Mr Kluska was mistreated, by abusing influences by certain competitors applied against Kluska, mafia style. However, we do not know very much of Kluska's activities to grow his own company; I simply don't believe he did 100% things cleanly himself in the past. Especially, own involvement of Kluska in politics later gives food for thoughts.

if he engaged in the politics on the PO side would you have doubts about his motivations???

btw if you were harmed by parts of the system acting in a coordinated manner with little legal base would you not try to influece the state of the things? - was Mr Kluska starting his own mafia or trying to push for some open pro-enterpreunership policies?

♂

Edited by: Antek_Stalich May 30, 11, 16:14 #111

I'm surprised Plus is still Polish (corporate) owned company (with Vodafone partnership). TPSA (state-owned) still has slight ownership majority over the French partner. Others are sold to major Western players. Now you Gumishu collect enthusiastic people around you and become mobile telephony operator ;-)

I'm saying: Private entrepreneurship is gangster, warrior-like thing. Individuals accumulate money and power when possible not necessarily by clean ways. Many Commies had chance to do that, stole money and failed. Others were able to create solid businesses. Also, big deal of people making their money before 1989 by for example smuggling, accumulated their capital and they grew up. Natural consequence is corporate development. Is not Optimus S.A. a corporation?

I say: I excuse private entrepreneurs for the way they earned their first million as long as their activities give employment and increase the wealth of the country. Do we understand each other?

♂

May 30, 11, 16:15 #112

Antek_Stalich:

How did Wilczek, Król, Solorz make their initial capital? There was a bid for the first independent TV station. Solorz won. Now think Gumishu, you are there. Where are you taking the money for Polsat from?

actually, it should be me to ask you these questions - TVN has its roots in Polish communist intelligence services engaging in business, it can be pretty similar with Solorz (you perhaps can remember the so called 'przedsiębiorstwa polonijne' - these were thoroughly infiltrated by the services

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,783 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	May 30, 11, 16:15 #113
Monia: You know that well, you talk nonsense ...totally out of touch with reality .... In Poland everyone is poor in one way or the other...

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	May 30, 11, 16:20 #114
Ironside: In Poland everyone is poor in one way or the other... Some are mentally poor... Many, indeed.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	May 30, 11, 16:21 #115
Antek_Stalich: TPSA (state-owned) still has slight ownership majority over the French partner ask yourself if TPSA pays dividend and how much Polish state earns off the TPSA from the dividend and from taxes - and think where the most earning of Banks head to?

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	May 30, 11, 16:22 #116
gumishu: ask yourself if TPSA pays dividend and how much Polish state earns off the TPSA from the dividend and from taxes - and think where the most earning of Banks head to Tell me and show some proof.

♂

May 30, 11, 16:28 #117

Antek_Stalich:

gumishu:
ask yourself if TPSA pays dividend and how much Polish state earns off the TPSA from the dividend and from taxes - and think where the most earning of Banks head to

Tell me and show some proof.

it's just common sense concerning the banks - btw look at what is the difference btw saving and credit percantage - seems like they are making a decent money don't they?

as for the TPSA case - hmm - ask yourself what is the reason Skarb Państwa (the Treasury) is keeping its shares in the company - is it because we could lose most of the income (for some European book keeping tricks) or is it just the case that the families of politicians need a well-paid jobs in their Boards of Directors (actually both can be true at the same time)

♂

Edited by: Antek_Stalich May 30, 11, 16:48 #118

gumishu:

it's just common sense concerning the banks - btw look at what is the difference btw saving and credit percantage - seems like they are making a decent money don't they?

as for the TPSA case - hmm - ask yourself what is the reason Skarb Państwa (the Treasury) is keeping its shares in the company - is it because we could lose most of the income (for some European book keeping tricks) or is it just the case that the families of politicians need a well-paid jobs in their Boards of Directors (actually both can be true at the same time)

I though the basic idea behind the bank was a difference in interest rates on money borrowed and lent? We have so many banks and they operate OK. Meaning the buyers for their services can be found? Or is their existence kept by Invaders from Outer Space? ;-)

Regarding TPSA: Simple thought that instantly comes to mind is "Perhaps TPSA is a good solid business -- a golden duck -- so let us Treasury keep our shares in this golden business"? Why almost 50% of TPSA is owned by the French? For exactly the same reason!

Gumishu, read about the Ockham's Razor, PLEASE. Or even better: on Hanlon's Razor.

♂

Edited by: gumishu May 30, 11, 17:03 #119

Antek_Stalich:

Regarding TPSA: Simple thought that instantly comes to mind is "Perhaps TPSA is a good solid business -- a golden duck -- so let us Treasury keep our shares in this golden business"? Why almost 50% of TPSA is owned by the French? For exactly the same reason!

TPSA can contribute to the state treasury in two possible ways - through taxes and through the dividend - I don't know the actual state of affairs (and I am not interested that much to investigate it) but keeping shares in a company makes sense (for the treasury) if there is some good dividend paid (and actually if we have influece on the amount of the dividend (I don't know if Polish state does but from what you write it does) it is good to keep it (but hey where the hell is liberalism)

now consider that Polish state gets rid of all the shares it has in the TPSA - it loses the dividend surely - but suddenly too it may appear that the tax collected from the company drops (for some book-keeping tricks - let's assume the income is "transferred abroad")

but still - where the hell is liberalism - or why keeping to the letter of liberalism may not always be the best thing (as to the letter of any doctrine - 'everything should be in private hands' is a doctrine)

that the positions in the Boards of Directors of companies like TPSA are political 'booties' is a different matter but still can be solved not only by the state getting rid of its shares

Antek_Stalich:

I though the basic idea behind the bank was a difference in interest rates on money borrowed and lent? We have so many banks and they operate OK. Meaning the buyers for their services can be found?

don't you think they are hmm ripping the population off - and what about their income - are they investing it back in Polish economy or rather pumping it out to help their 'troubled' main branches - btw I'm pretty curious what is the typical credit rate in Western Europe as compared to Poland (find me a bank that will give you credit for less than 15 per cent)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,783 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	May 30, 11, 17:10 #120
Antek_Stalich: Some are mentally poor. not only mentally but many lack in moral department, some have mind incapable of grasping few simple facts, and some have no opportunity to learn better. As I said everyone or near enough ...

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