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HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE POLAND IN 2010?

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posts: 85

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Apr 27, 10, 03:22 #1

Just curious to see how the country's changed.
Are Poles still the conservative types when compared to western Europeans and N.Americas? What sets Poles apart from the rest?
Is the younger generation doomed to repeat some of the mistakes of the west (this is open to your interpretation by the way)? I ask this because the typical eastern European mentality is that everything that's from the west is the best, etc. I don't necessarily believe this.
Discuss.

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May 31, 10, 03:02 #2

rychlik:

that's from the west is the best

They certainly think that way. I'm actually trying to figure out why that is. It might just be psychological, in that anything foreign is better than domestic. However, 90% of the time this is false. Just people's perception I guess. I've personally had enough of western society, and need a change.

Incidentally, it sh*ts me whenever people refer to western society as developed, and the rest as developing. I can't stand the narrow minded perception that poland is a developing country, only westerners could have come up with that. no offense intended.

TransAtlantykThreads: - Posts: 33 Joined: May 28, 10 ♂	May 31, 10, 03:29 #3
Poland in 2010. The West, fifty years ago. This is not a good thing.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	May 31, 10, 03:41 #4
TransAtlantyk: Poland in 2010. The West, fifty years ago. This is not a good thing. Actually it is a good thing. It would be much worse if Poland was where the West is today.

TransAtlantykThreads: - Posts: 33 Joined: May 28, 10 ♂	May 31, 10, 03:44 #5
that is a very valid point, Darius. Let's hope Poland and the other Slavic nations will wise up before they do catch up to us.

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	May 31, 10, 14:14 #6
TransAtlantyk: The West, fifty years ago. Its true...and is the reason i chose to leave my home in the UK....and move to Poland...! Hopefully by the time Poland catches up to the west....i will be dead...!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates May 31, 10, 14:27 #7
TransAtlantyk: The West, fifty years ago. Make it 20 years and maybe you'll have a point other then being a twat. Poland, poorer, safer, cleaner and confused (than the West).

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May 31, 10, 14:28 #8

TransAtlantyk:

that is a very valid point, Darius. Let's hope Poland and the other Slavic nations will wise up before they do catch up to us.

They've got the option to take it into the direction that they want, but you can already see the political mood, and the mood of the people for that matter, fighting against it. Either swallow the bitter pill now and get on track, or let it fester and cause massive long term problems. Time to sit back and watch how it plays out.

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Edited by: Sokrates May 31, 10, 14:30 #9

convex:

They've got the option to take it into the direction that they want, but you can already see the political mood, and the mood of the people for that matter,

The political mood of PO, if you're into polish politicis you'll realise that PO is the only party presenting the leftist western outlook (apart from SLD and SDPiL).

The majority of Poles are against indiscriminately open borders and total privatisation (luckily).

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May 31, 10, 15:03 #10

The copycat mentality of Poles and other former captive nations dooms them to repeat the errors of the West. For instance fields, forests, ponds and ditches full of flimsy plastic bags that even a single bun or bunch of radishes were packed into. The siatka (net shopping bag) has disappeared although it was ecologically ahead of its time. It took nearly 2 decades for ecological, reuseable green cloth shopping bags to become widespread in Poland.
Real bread and cured meats were better under ther communists as they were less loaded with chemicals flavour enhancers, dough improvers, fake aromas, artifical this, that and the othe thing than what is sold nowadays. Poland with its one million horses (which produce the best natural fertiliser) 20 years ago could have beconme the world's ecological food suppliers; instead famrers aped ther West and cotniamnted their produce with as much chemcial pesticides and artificial fertilisers as they could lay their hands on. Many other examples exist.
The basic reasson for not thoughtfully choosing the most advantageous option was the Poles' widespread inferiority complex, the remedy for which was thought to be a West-aping backlash against the drabness of the preceding period.

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May 31, 10, 15:13 #11

Sokrates:

The political mood of PO, if you're into polish politicis you'll realise that PO is the only party presenting the leftist western outlook (apart from SLD and SDPiL).

The problem that I see is that there are no real classical liberalist parties in Poland. 99% of the political spectrum consists of pseudo socialists (PiS and PO). People here like being tied to the tit of the state. It's a shame too, because there is a lot of opportunity for Poland to become a powerhouse, but it's looking like it will be tied down by the same pitfalls that are biting the Western welfare states.

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Edited by: Sokrates May 31, 10, 15:28 #12

convex:

The problem that I see is that there are no real classical liberalist parties in Poland.

Which is good, the liberal parties are only good to tone down right wingers.

convex:

People here like being tied to the tit of the state.

Not as much as in the West, people everywhere like to get moola for free still we're much less socialist than anyone west of our border.

convex:

It's a shame too, because there is a lot of opportunity for Poland to become a powerhouse, but it's looking like it will be tied down by the same pitfalls that are biting the Western welfare states.

Not really but then again you're not Polish so you can't see certain things, foreign wannabe experts on Poland like Polonius or just foreigners even living here fail to see one thing.

Polish people lack identity, its not like Belarussians or Ukrainians who never had national awareness and identity, Poles did have it and it was taken away, replaced by partitions, allowed to surface briefly in the interwar period and then again suffocated under russian ocupation.
Thats why today so many Poles reach to history, we're a people with a mindset of an empire forced to live in a midget state, there was no slow process of degradation, Poland went from the most powerfull country in Europe to a second rate power (when it was not occupied) and the people never realised it or accepted it.

Basically Poles are subconsciously trying to reform the old commonwealth into something new, the initial confusion may last some years longer but the economy and everything else mirrors this momentary confusion of Poland.

We're free, we're democratic, now we're in the WTF mental state that will last for a time longer untill Poland will decide what will it do with itself, last time it did so it went from a midget state to major continental power in 60 years but then again last time it did so was under Casimir the Great.

Whatever happens there's going to be interesting times in and for Poland.

Also i see opinions of people like Polonius completely worthless since Poland is such a peculiar country that you have to live in to have even a remote understanding of and you have to be Polish to feel the Blues.

All the current parties prey on this confusion which means they're also temporary and will not shape the future political scene, personally i predict that these will be the last parliamentary elections before the whole system collapses and transforms into something competent and natively Polish.

Democracy should and will work for Poland but not in the western model.

Ps. there's an inferiority complex allright but it refers to our history more than anything else, a Pole measures up not to a German or a Frenchman but to another Pole, 200+ years ago.

♂

May 31, 10, 15:54 #13

Poland is a Jasio-ome-lately.... Prvatisation was inevitable, buudid it have to mean transferrinn most of the couitnry's prime industrial assets to foreign capital, often at a steal? Only recently has there been talk of creating a Polish capital consortium with the Pekao (or is it PKO) Bank buying out out Bank Zachodni-WBK (owned by Irish allied BAnks) and possibly joining up with insurer PZU. Back in the early '90s such a National Capital Consoritium should have been set up (before EU membership coudl stop it). It could have comrpised najor Banks (PKO, Pekao, Handlowy), PZU, Petrochemia Płocka, the Legnica copper basin, Ceghielski, shipyards, etc. (also open to private investors like Kulczyk and Solorz). Such a consortium wouuld have been able to buy up Polish flagship brands such as Żywiec, Okocim, Krakus, Wyborowa, etc. and could have acquired carmaker FSO (now owned by Urkaine).
The same holds true for decommunsation (similar to post-war Germany's de-Nazification) which should have taken place in the erarly '90s. All PZPR activists (not rank-and-file members) would have been banned from public office for at least 10 years (Kwaśniewski couldn't have stood for president!), but that was prevented by the soft-on-communism Gazeta WYbiórcza gang and Wałęsa who panicked when Bolek was exposed. Kaczyński tried that under trhe 4th Republic project of 2005 -- much too late. Long before then the commies had either wormed their way into posts of power and authrotiy (privatisation, treasury companies, private business, academia, etc.) or received fat-cat old-age pensions and died of natural causes.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	May 31, 10, 15:59 #14
Polonius3: Poland is a Jasio-ome-lately.... The what? I completely agree with the remainder though but then again everyone who's not part of SLD does.

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May 31, 10, 16:11 #15

Sokrates:

Which is good, the liberal parties are only good to tone down right wingers.

I think a healthy Libertarian approach would be good for a country like Poland. Do it while you can during periods of growth, and can see the problems with the social welfare system collapsing in on itself.

Sokrates:

All the current parties prey on this confusion which means they're also temporary and will not shape the future political scene, personally i predict that these will be the last parliamentary elections before the whole system collapses and transforms into something competent and natively Polish.

Don't know, as long as the people are complacent, which a large percentage of them are, there won't be upheaval. The only way to really see a change here would be if things went bad and personally affected people. In the cities, most people seem to be fairly "happy" in the rat race. Lots of complaining, of course, but nothing past making complaints known at the ballot box.

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Edited by: Sokrates May 31, 10, 16:20 #16

convex:

I think a healthy Libertarian approach would be good for a country like Poland.

Poles are conservative people, most older and loads of younger people, a libertarian approach is simply out of place here.

convex:

Don't know, as long as the people are complacent, which a large percentage of them are, there won't be upheaval.

Complacency in Poland is also deceptive in that it always carries the "it will last forever" vibe and suddenly ends.

convex:

The only way to really see a change here would be if things went bad and personally affected people.

Which they're about to do regardless whether its PiS or PO (though personally i believe PiS will win).

convex:

most people seem to be fairly "happy" in the rat race. Lots of complaining, of course, but nothing past making complaints known at the ballot box.

Look to pre-partition Poland for ideas on how Poland transforms itself, we're not the pitchforks and torches kind of people, whenever it happened it happened in an orderly manner, what was a great rapid reform for a foreigner was in reality a social revolution - Polish style.

Remember Poland is not a country trying to shape its identity, its a country trying to regain it and of course nothing will be actively done untill social upheaval at a street level happens but thats exactly whats about to happen right now.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 31, 10, 16:33 #17
As an emerging entity whose faith and resolve will be sternly tested after the events of last month. Poland lost some great people, loyal servants to their respective causes. RIP! Before Smolensk, Poland was moving forward in many respects, particularly with regards to GDP growth. Suspicion is rife and fingers are being pointed.

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Edited by: Sokrates May 31, 10, 16:35 #18

Seanus:

Before Smolensk, Poland was moving forward in many respects, particularly with regards to GDP growth. Suspicion is rife and fingers are being pointed.

Sean you're going to have a helluva wake up call after PiS wins (also saw some Scots in those funny minis you guys wear yesterday, were you in Wrocław?).

I do agree that some of the people who died including Kaczyński were as close to guardians of the states welfare as it gets or at least crucial in preventing foreign and domestic forces from damaging Polands progress.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 31, 10, 16:39 #19
How do you feel modern Poland under PiS would affect me as a teacher, Sok? No, I wasn't in Wrocław though it is a beautiful city.

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Edited by: Sokrates May 31, 10, 17:02 #20

Seanus:

How do you feel modern Poland under PiS would affect me as a teacher, Sok?

I have no idea as to exactly how, what i have idea about is however how Jarosław changed after the crash, PO is a bunch of German sellouts but PiS will assault the very democratic system directly after winning the elections.

I imagine he's going to start f*cking with economy big time as well, this touches you, me all of us.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 31, 10, 17:45 #21
Well, there are those who believe that Jarosław can't change so drastically in such a short space of time. Even more so given the veracity of his statements whilst PM and his support base.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	May 31, 10, 18:43 #22
Seanus: Well, there are those who believe that Jarosław can't change so drastically in such a short space of time. I dont have to believe i know dont ask me how i just know first hand, imagine the most extreme length Kaczyńscy ever went to, double it, triple it and you have what Jarek is about now.

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Edited by: rychlik May 31, 10, 18:48 #23

Polonius3:

Real bread and cured meats were better under ther communists as they were less loaded with chemicals flavour enhancers, dough improvers, fake aromas, artifical this, that and the othe thing than what is sold nowadays.

I read that Poland still uses the best natural means when producing its food (meat n' veggies). I think they are more conscious of this then France or Germany and Poland does more organic farming. Yes? The eggs I had in Poland for example were way better than the ones I eat in Canada :)
Stay positive.

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06 ♂	May 31, 10, 22:21 #24
I would describe it as cold!

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	May 31, 10, 22:24 #25
Poland: God's answer to Global Warming.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 31, 10, 22:25 #26
Oh, we are to expect a new and reinvigorated JK? How exactly? Poland is definitely colder but there is still a fair degree of variation. Global warming is taking a back seat for the moment :) Enter the unpredictable volcanic weather ;)

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May 31, 10, 22:45 #27

Polonius3:

Ceghielski, shipyards, etc. (also open to private investors like Kulczyk and Solorz).

Do you really think Kulczyk would want a thing to do with the shipyards and Cegielski?

Both the shipyards and Cigelski were ran into the ground by sentimental Solidarność managers who simply didn't have a clue how to run them - living in Poznan and hearing about some of the nonsense that goes on within Ciegelski, I'm really not surprised that the factory is on the edge of bankruptcy. Look at how Solaris have succeeded in Poland - while Cigielski workers still stand there and demand more and more from the government - even when their own Solidarność managers were the ones that have caused all the economic problems.

I cannot imagine someone like Kulczyk wanting anything to do with the great moustached masses.

Polonius3:

The same holds true for decommunsation (similar to post-war Germany's de-Nazification) which should have taken place in the erarly '90s. All PZPR activists (not rank-and-file members) would have been banned from public office for at least 10 years (Kwaśniewski couldn't have stood for president!), but that was prevented by the soft-on-communism Gazeta WYbiórcza gang and Wałęsa who panicked when Bolek was exposed.

Do I need to remind you that the Kaczynski twins signed the Round Table Agreement? They AGREED to the deal which allows PZPR members to "get away with it" in exchange for giving up power - so don't give me the conspiracy theories, please!

Anyone with an unbiased, unhysterical view of the situation can clearly see that a deal was done to allow PZPR members to move on in exchange for them giving up power. History tells us now that there was no need to make such a deal - but look at how painless it was in Poland in 1989 compared to the violence seen in places like Czechoslovakia and East Germany.

Polonius3:

Kaczyński tried that under trhe 4th Republic project of 2005 -- much too late.

This much I agree with. If it was to be done, it should have been done quickly and effectively in 1991/2 - not in 2005. Then again, the 4th Republic project was embarrasing - instead of focusing on Poland's problems today, they tried to focus on imagined communist enemies from 15 years ago.

Seanus:

Oh, we are to expect a new and reinvigorated JK? How exactly?

Won't happen, he seems like a beaten man. This whole low-key campaign isn't working at all - right now, it wouldn't seem surprising if Komorowski snatched the election in the 1st round!

♀

May 31, 10, 23:07 #28

delphiandomine:

Won't happen, he seems like a beaten man. This whole low-key campaign isn't working at all - right now, it wouldn't seem surprising if Komorowski snatched the election in the 1st round!

I hope so!
Was visiting friends yesterday and saw the Polish news. How surprised I was seeing one of the high ranked priests/cardinals who said something about 'some of the candidates using institution of Church in their campaign, hiding in Church's shadow because they are too weak to make it on their own'

wonder who he had in mind :)

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	May 31, 10, 23:21 #29
The shady roundtable deal indeed let the commies off the hook for their crimes. The question remains: is a tactical agreement with a criminal regime binding indefintiely? Once the Rooskies had pulled out, all the Jaruzelskis and Kiszczaks should have been put on trial. Doing that now only evokes pity for those ageing, ailing, doddering old men with one foot in the grave.

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May 31, 10, 23:26 #30

Polonius3:

The question remains: is a tactical agreement with a criminal regime binding indefintiely? Once the Rooskies had pulled out, all the Jaruzelskis and Kiszczaks should have been put on trial.

For the sake of progress, it was obviously left untouched. Sure - Poland could have gone around, lustrating (is that a word?) all the PZPR members - but then, who would have managed the factories? The utter incompetence shown by the shopyards and other Solidarność strongholds shows that ex-communist managers were frankly much better at running things anyway.

What would Poland have achieved from lustration, anyway?

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