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Do you think a smoking ban would be a good thing in Polish restaurants and Bars?

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HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 19:33 #91
bullfrog: It is not one person, it is the parliament who passes the law. You (and many others) have the right to kick them out at the next election if you are not happy with what they do. And yet again you fail to answer the question: why should one group of people have the right to dictate to other persons which legal activities they can allow on their property?

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,587 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 19:38 #92
Mikas: But polish government is very corrupt, don't expect such modern laws from them. Yes, it's a shame they granted citizenship to you. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if you were actually illegally in Poland. I have a friend in the Straz Graniczna, there can't be many Mark Biernat's in Krakow...could be fun :)

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 20:02 #93
Harry: And yet again you fail to answer the question: why should one group of people have the right to dictate to other persons which legal activities they can allow on their property? Because we actually live in democracy that doesn't value private property rights instead of a republic which enshrines private property rights as the foundation of a free society.

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Feb 1, 10, 20:06 #94

Harry:

And yet again you fail to answer the question: why should one group of people have the right to dictate to other persons which legal activities they can allow on their property?

Good question. In an ideal world - nobody should be able to do that.

But your argument is rather shot up Harry by the fact that the governments have changed it so that smoking becomes illegal in certain specified places. This means it is therefore no longer a legal activity in those places.

Yeah the whole socialist nanny state thing sucks, but we've all got to cope with it or vote them out and kill all the PC-spouting lefty idiots.

The best story I heard was a self-employed tradesman (plumber or something) who was smoking alone in his own van. He was stopped and fined for smoking in a workplace. Now that, in my opinion, is really taking the ****. You can allow yourself to get wound up about it, but what's the point. Poland is one of the least PC countries I've spent time in and it's one of the things I like most about it. I think it's only a matter of 20-30 years though :(

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Feb 1, 10, 21:45 #95

convex:

Harry:
And yet again you fail to answer the question: why should one group of people have the right to dictate to other persons which legal activities they can allow on their property?
Because we actually live in democracy that doesn't value private property rights instead of a republic which enshrines private property rights as the foundation of a free society.

This is not "one group of people", this is the parliament which represents or is supposed to represent all the people. Put it another way, it is in effect the rule of the majority, which is in effect, as convex, points out how democracy works. If someone had the (stupid) idea of proposing a law that rules out all usernames beginning by the letter "H" on PF, and if he/she gathered a majority to support this and win a vote, then it would be applicable whether you like or not. In addition, may I dare add that as soon a "private place" starts to receive the paying public, be it a pub, a B&B or even your home my dear Harry, it ceases to be purely private and has to abide by certain rules.. Tough, but that's democracy

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Feb 1, 10, 21:48 #96

bullfrog:

If someone had the (stupid) idea of proposing a law that rules out all usernames beginning by the letter "H" on PF, and if he/she gathered a majority to support this and win a vote, then it would be applicable whether you like or not.

So we are agreed: when the majority of the population votes for a smoking ban, there should be one. Until such time, non-smokers will be free to not go to places which allow smoking and smokers will be free to not go to places which do not allow smoking.

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Feb 1, 10, 21:54 #97

Harry:

That's right, except that is the vote in the elected Parliament that represents the vote of the majority. If you want to be able to vote on each individual piece (or proposal ) of law, you'll have to emigrate to Switzerland!

CzyrycaThreads: 2 Posts: 149 Joined: Jan 25, 10 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 22:15 #98
IN the US we have a ban on smoking inside any building, restaurant, bar, pub, whatever. Just went into effect 6 years ago for bars (pubs). Didn't affect the business. People just went outside to smoke. Then they created outside seating and you can smoke out there in the spring, summer, and fall with your meals. Added business because you can eat outside now. Just not in the winter.

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Feb 1, 10, 22:21 #99

Czyryca:

IN the US we have a ban on smoking inside any building, restaurant, bar, pub, whatever

Yes, I read a couple of years ago that you even have smoking bans in "real" private properties (story is about prospective condos buyers in NYC who are vetted for smoking prior to buying, because, so they say, smoke in their apartment permeates to the others apts via the aircon system..). Now even I recognize that this is a weeny step too far...

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Feb 1, 10, 22:41 #100

bullfrog:

Now even I recognize that this is a weeny step too far...

Yea that's a little crazy.
Some buildings you can't smoke within 200 yards, like hospitals. That makes sense i guess.
I guess you would have to read the condo rules and everything if you are a smoker and looking to buy a condo. Smoking bans are a good thing though. I know, I know, but it keeps your healthier, others healthier, and you don't smell like a cigarette after you go out to eat.

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Feb 1, 10, 23:40 #101

bullfrog:

Democracies are bound to fail, majority rule doesn't work, Republics which protect private property are the only hope.

Czyryca:

IN the US we have a ban on smoking inside any building, restaurant, bar, pub, whatever.

Some hippie states have no smoking laws, you're right there.

CzyrycaThreads: 2 Posts: 149 Joined: Jan 25, 10 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 15:33 #102
convex: Some hippie states have no smoking laws, you're right there. I personally like it better. Don't smell like a bum after you come out of a restaurant.

MEMBER ♂

Feb 2, 10, 15:39 #103

Myszolow:

The best story I heard was a self-employed tradesman (plumber or something) who was smoking alone in his own van. He was stopped and fined for smoking in a workplace. Now that, in my opinion, is really taking the ****

Under the terms of the Scottish Smoking Ban, you are not allowed to smoke for 3 hours prior to having a workman round to your house (or of course you can smoke outside). Due to them making a house call, your house become this worker's place of work.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 15:41 #104
Czyryca: I personally like it better. Don't smell like a bum after you come out of a restaurant. Either do I, I go to restaurants where the owners have decided not to allow smoking.

CzyrycaThreads: 2 Posts: 149 Joined: Jan 25, 10 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 15:53 #105
convex: I go to restaurants where the owners have decided not to allow smoking. Have you decided on dinner yet? Would you like cancer with your steak?

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 16:04 #106
Czyryca: Have you decided on dinner yet? Would you like cancer with your steak? Why would I have a problem with cancer? Did you read my post? I only go to restaurants that are nonsmoking.

CzyrycaThreads: 2 Posts: 149 Joined: Jan 25, 10 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 16:27 #107
convex: Why would I have a problem with cancer? Did you read my post? I only go to restaurants that are nonsmoking. I was being sarcastic. Saying that essentially going to a restaurant where they smoke might as well serve cancer on their menus.

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Edited by: convex Feb 2, 10, 16:33 #108

Czyryca:

I was being sarcastic. Saying that essentially going to a restaurant where they smoke might as well serve cancer on their menus.

Next to menu items that have been pumped full of antibiotics and served with all kinds of nice carcinogenic foods that are a result of regulation putting small local farmers out of business. Now we get food from "meat factories". The story of the food industry in the US is pretty amazing (in a terrible terrible way). Food Inc is a great flick on it.

I don't ever eat at restaurants where the owner decides to allow smoking in a common area. I would hate for someone to tell the restaurant owner who did allow smoking what they can and can't do. I have freedom of choice where I choose to spend my money, I use it.

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Feb 2, 10, 19:06 #109

convex:

The story of the food industry in the US is pretty amazing (in a terrible terrible way). Food Inc is a great flick on it.

That's a generalization though. You can choose to get food from different sources, you do not have to elect to get goods from sketchy wholesalers. I personally like grass fed beef, and organic maple syrup. However, I don't care how my veggies were grown. Choices, choices, choices.

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Feb 2, 10, 21:33 #110

I am currently a "non smoker", but that has only been weeks and I have little doubt I will smoke again. My stance on the club/restaurant...? I think any ban would be a very good idea and I thought so a month ago when I was smoking as well, even though I loved a smoke with a beer/coffee/scotch.

I am not going to argue that the pub/club culture is not effected negatively (from the business perspective), but I will argue that it is
- safer for patrons/staff
- Not a bad thing to get people off the streets and back at home drinking (in regards to safer streets etc)
- a far more pleasant dining experience
- Will help reduce smoking numbers the more places it is banned and the less sociable that it becomes.

Future generations will smoke in smaller numbers than current generations (in developed countries) and that number will only continue to decrease more and more over time. In essence at some stage a country will completely ban cigarettes and then eventually others will follow suit. It is not an easy decision, due to the taxation money that is lost through this source of revenue, but it is going to happen, probably around about the time that number of smokers drop down around 5% or less.

Any bans that lead to less smoking (in general) are a good thing, regardless of any initial pain suffered by pubs/clubs.

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Feb 2, 10, 21:54 #111

mateinone:

Any bans that lead to less smoking (in general) are a good thing, regardless of any initial pain suffered by pubs/clubs.

That and Cigs here are over $8-9USD. That is pretty expensive. Down South cigs are $3-4USD. We tax them up here in Taxachusetts (Massachusetts).

I'll tell you though, people still go to the bars and restaurants. As I said, many restaurants and bars opened outdoor seating and patios that are a BIG hit. So business will not suffer as much as you think.

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Feb 2, 10, 21:59 #112

Harry:

why should one group of people have the right to dictate to other persons which legal activities they can allow on their property?

Why is something legal or illegal in the first place? Because a group of people passed legislation outlining the rights of other people/groups/organisations. So by the very virtue of living in a governed non-anarchistic state, you are living in a society that determines that groups of people dictate the standards by which others live.

You are right smoking in public/private places in many countries is currently legal, but it is being faded out. When you consider that smoking would be in the top 3 causes for health expenditure in most western countries, I would expect that the average tax payer has a reason to want to see change.

I would think that once upon a time there were schools/hospitals that you could smoke and now you no longer can? A law was passed that the health of the person not smoking was important enough to outlaw others having the "right" to impact them.

Governments are essentially law makers, so of course they have a right to legalize or criminalize an activity as they see fit, if it is unjust then people will rise up and vote them out, I doubt this has happened often over smoking laws, if at all.

Take the following as an example..
Once opium houses were legal in Australia. It was no issue to go to one of these houses and get as high as a kite. Now obviously over time as the government (and most likely pushed by public demand) has decided that these establishments where unhealthy/dangerous etc, they have outlawed them and the practice in general. I would suggest it would not be at all stretching the truth to suggest that people would have been indignant and wondered themselves what gave the government the right to ban this "legal" activity.

Whilst everyone has the right to challenge through their local government laws to be enacted and in fact can of course run and attempt to overturn legislation themselves... questioning the right of a group of people to change or implement laws seems a strange thing to be questioning when it is the fundamental basis of the society most of us live in.

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Edited by: Blackriven Feb 2, 10, 22:22 #113

We've had a ban on smoking in bars and restaurants here in NZ for quite some time (about 5 years). Yes it did have an impact on the hospitality industry at the start, however bar owners started to find creative ways for smokers to enjoy their beer and their smokes too. (since a lot of local councils have liquor bans in the inner cities smokers couldn't take their drinks outside with them) Some bars now have built smoking 'gardens'.

One bar I am going to use as an example they've set up a tarpaulin over their decking in the alley and put gas heaters in the outdoor space (which is now mostly indoors - like a tent), they have big screen TV in the smoking area as well so punters can enjoy their smokes, beer and whatever entertainment is happening.

One thing that I personally should have been put into the law here was to allow bars to have indoor smoking rooms. I stayed in a hostel once that had one. It was a smoke proof room that had extractor fans. The fans were on a motion sensor so they worked when people where in the room smoking and for a few seconds after they left.

There's now talk of banning cigarettes completely in NZ by 2020.

CzyrycaThreads: 2 Posts: 149 Joined: Jan 25, 10 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 22:27 #114
Blackriven: There's now talk of banning cigarettes completely in NZ by 2020. Not a bad idea. Drinking on the other hand...don't even think about it!

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Edited by: Trevek Feb 2, 10, 22:51 #115

if not a total ban, then at least harder segregation. I rarely go to pubs now as my wife has allergies and neither of us feel well after being in a pub with no air conditioning and a thick fug of smoke.

I remember going back to Glasgow once and being amazed to find that i didn't stink at the end of the night. It happened in a club in Łodż too... even the Poles commented how nice it was to not reek like an ashtray at the end of the evening (there was air conditioning in the club).

Blackriven:

however bar owners started to find creative ways for smokers to enjoy their beer and their smokes too.

In germany there was a pub which charged everyone 'membership' (the price of 5 beers) and you got 5 'free' beers. This made it a private members only club... and so exempt from the smoking ban.

polskyThreads: 5 Posts: 98 Joined: May 26, 09 ♀	Feb 20, 10, 12:17 #116
any news about the law that will impose this ban?

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,143 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 16:27 #117
No smoking in a Polish bar...crazy...! Next thing they will be making it illegal to drink and drive...?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 23, 10, 08:02 #118
Still, I like it that bars and pubs are losing custom at the expense of health concerns. On the other hand, they did it too late in the day. Drinking and smoking, for some anyway, was sth that went hand-in-hand. I'm really surprised that Ireland led that drive in Europe.

Peter KRK

Feb 23, 10, 10:52 #119

I do not smoke but I was tolerant for most of my life, and now I have a big problem with my health. When I am exposed on any smog I get ill. I get horrible headache also. Do you know what is the worst thihg for me now? It is absolute intolerance of smokers. They do not care about anyone except them. They could smoke next to you without padron. They could smoke in hospitals, schools, bathrooms, bus stops, stations. They do not concern any rules, regulations, prohibitions, decency or mercy at all. They can blow an acrid smog straiht to your face and smile stupid. Eh, some correction camp would be sufficient.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Feb 23, 10, 11:31 #120
Trevek: if not a total ban, then at least harder segregation. I rarely go to pubs now as my wife has allergies and neither of us feel well after being in a pub with no air conditioning and a thick fug of smoke. Why on earth would you go there? Are there no other options? Are there many people that think like you? Lets open up a non smoking bar and make a killing...