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Do you think a smoking ban would be a good thing in Polish restaurants and Bars?

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Feb 28, 10, 16:55 #151

Olaf:

- Running a bar is a special kind of business as you open your premises for the public and therefore make the place public in this sense (maybe not in legal sense, let some lawyer here explain?). So bar owners actually can and should and are subject to some general "public" laws, such as health and safety (Polish SANEPID), fire safety regulations, and lots of others. Just ask a bar owner what permissions s/he had to obtain prior to opening the bar.

Private property is not a public area, end of story. That is we can do things like reject people that don't meet a certain dress code. We can also play whatever kind of music we want, at what ever volume, as long as it does not infringe on anyone elses rights outside of your own property. I know about the permits and inspections that are required to open a bar. You also know that we are required to provide adequate ventilation. You do know that right? Enforce the laws on the books, don't introduce more. Why can't you just leave us alone and go to non smoking bars and restaurants? If you don't like it, just don't go there.

Olaf:

I think maybe it could be stated that a proprietor of a bar has to establish either smoking or non-smoking bar (and presumably pay some higher health tax!) and there actually should be special BARS FOR SMOKERS not other way round. That is a soluion: I just turned the anti-ban ramblers' argument into my own:).

That argument doesn't make sense. Does that mean that McDonalds should be paying a health tax too? You're really not getting it, just let the market work. You said it yourself, more money can be made at non smoking bars, more people will go to non smoking bars...Wouldn't it just be a matter of time before non smoking bars are the norm? Why would someone chose to have less customers and less turnover?

Olaf:

Why then such a law was imposed in some other countries in Europe. Do you think Sweden and many other countries made mistake or protected their citizens etc?

Because those countries are semi-socialist nanny states that think their citizens are too stupid to take care of themselves.

seb4uThreads: - Posts: 53 Joined: Feb 27, 10 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 20:10 #152
smoking ban doesn't work in Poland.it's pointless. people smoke even though there's ban in some places

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Feb 28, 10, 21:55 #153

convex:

we are required to provide adequate ventilation. You do know that right?

Yes, but either the restrictions are low or they are not being followed. If it was eficient then I wouldn't have a problem with going to some bars. Simply the ventillation would suck up the smoke, but now my clothes do it instead. In some places it is also not easy to have good, efficient ventillation - like almost all bars/clubs in basments around old market sqares. Or maybe the staff does not turn it on to save on electricity or maka foggy atmosphere.

convex:

Wouldn't it just be a matter of time before non smoking bars are the norm?

We don't know how long it'll take. Many people wish not to wait.
I do get your point, but I see we're poles apart.
I

seb4u:

Private property is not a public area, end of story.

I wrote that it is not like a typical private property - like your home etc. If you open your doors and let people in to make profit out of that, you should follow some regulations - I wrote that before and it is the same for me to have safety standards, fire escapes routes, and effective ventillation at least.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Feb 28, 10, 22:32 #154
Without smoking how would all those Polish girls remain slim in their 20's and 30's? They would have to resort to bulemia or something unhealthy.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 00:48 #155
Yo have just convinced me! :)) Fags for women should be subsidised.

beelzebubThreads: - Posts: 515 Joined: Feb 16, 10 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 00:50 #156
You do mean cig fags not fairy fags right? I am not sure if I should agree yet or not?

ali81Threads: - Posts: 1 Joined: Mar 1, 10 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 00:51 #157
smoking ban its very good

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 12:28 #158
beelzebub: You do mean cig fags not fairy fags right? I am not sure if I should agree yet or not? Cig fags for women, fairy fags for men I meant, hahaah. Seriously now, maybe it is rather eating habits and a bit more active lifestyle, or gens than smoking? I don't know...

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Mar 1, 10, 12:57 #159

convex:

Wouldn't it just be a matter of time before non smoking bars are the norm?

You think that "the market" will ensure this. Tell me, what was the proportion of non-smoking bars (in Britain) prior to the smoking ban?

Now, how can you reconcile this tiny proportion of non-smoking bars with the fact that the majority of pub goers don't smoke? Surely non-smokers would simply go to non-smoking bars, and there would therefore be a large market for such establishments? But there isn't, and there never has been.

Something is not right with your "market" ideal and it is this: Non-smoking establishments lose the custom of smokers. Non-smokers are generally prepared to suffer smoking establishments. Therefore, nearly every pub is a smoking establishment. The trade off means that in 99.9% of cases, a smoking establishement is favourable to the landlord.

Now if you think it fair that workers and customers who are prepared to suffer in such an environment, should do so at the cost of their health then fair enough. There was a time when I would have probably agreed with you, but as a former smoker I can now appreciate the other side of the coin fully. It should be the smoker who has to suffer going outside, as opposed to the non-smoker's health suffering, purely because they want to go for a drink with their friends.

Regardless of this, the debate is pointless. Poland, as a memeber of the United States of Europe, WILL have a smoking ban shortly. Like it or not.

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Mar 1, 10, 13:12 #160

IronsE11:

Now, how can you reconcile this tiny proportion of non-smoking bars with the fact that the majority of pub goers don't smoke? Surely non-smokers would simply go to non-smoking bars, and there would therefore be a large market for such establishments? But there isn't, and there never has been.

It's because the non smoking patrons are willing to accept it. It's not a big enough concern for them to vote with their money.

IronsE11:

Now if you think it fair that workers and customers who are prepared to suffer in such an environment, should do so at the cost of their health then fair enough. There was a time when I would have probably agreed with you, but as a former smoker I can now appreciate the other side of the coin fully. It should be the smoker who has to suffer going outside, as opposed to the non-smoker's health suffering, purely because they want to go for a drink with their friends.

You make it sound like this is forced upon people. If I don't like blaring disco polo, I won't go into the establishment. It's the patrons choice where they decide to go. There are more and more restaurants and pubs that are going non smoking everyday, even here. In Prague, the number of non smoking pubs and restaurants has exploded in recent years, without any government help. Stop being lazy and vote with your wallet.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Edited by: Olaf Mar 1, 10, 13:39 #161
What's not to like here! Oxygen instead of exhaust fumes;)? - Good! Respecting non-smoking majority rights - Good! Healthier people - Good!

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Mar 1, 10, 13:53 #162

Olaf:

What's not to like here!

It's needless regulation. You just ignore the fact that self regulation (due to market forces) is working in places like Prague.

Olaf:

Respecting non-smoking majority rights

In public, I agree with you in full. On private property, no.

Olaf:

Healthier people - Good!

Indeed, we should also make fat people run and get people to stop drinking, truly healthy people!

How about smoking sections, and walled off smoking areas like in Germany? The non smokers could subsidize the construction and then you don't have the problem of burdening the proprietor with additional cost. Just make the drinks more expensive on the non smoking side and it would work. That sounds like a plan.

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Mar 1, 10, 14:03 #163

convex:

Indeed, we should also make fat people run and get people to stop drinking, truly healthy people!
Well, I don't care about obese people, as they do not influence their surrounding. Do they sprinkle the fat cells all over?

How about smoking sections, and walled off smoking areas like in Germany? The non smokers could subsidize the construction and then you don't have the problem of burdening the proprietor with additional cost. Just make the drinks more expensive on the non smoking side and it would work. That sounds like a plan.

It's the one who smokes should pay. I won't pay for a smoking chamber for ya.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 14:18 #164
Olaf: It's the one who smokes should pay. I won't pay for a smoking chamber for ya. Good, then let me continue to enjoy my current smoking chambers, you can pay normal rates at non smoking bars. See, we're all happy again. Just don't come to the smoking chambers. You're not being forced to.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Edited by: Olaf Mar 1, 10, 14:33 #165
That's a slightly narrow-minded and selfish point of view, but convenient and typical for smokers. And convex: See, we're all happy again. - no were not happy, not all, not yet :) Be a little more progressive.

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Edited by: convex Mar 1, 10, 14:44 #166

Olaf:

That's a slightly narrow-minded and selfish point of view, but convenient and typical for smokers. And

Of course, it's the status quo and you're trying to change it.

It's a bit selfish of you to impose your views on what should and should not be allowed.

lokalbezpapierosa.pl

Non smoking restaurants and pubs and growing in number to cater to exactly that segment of the market. Support those places with your wallet, and you will see more of them.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Mar 1, 10, 15:06 #167
convex: lokalbezpapierosa.pl - I've put that link along with other on p.4

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 16:53 #168
Olaf: - I've put that link along with other on p.4 I was illustrating my point. There are options currently available, and the market is reacting to the demand. More people need to just vote with their wallet and use the power they currently have.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Mar 4, 10, 23:05 #169
convex: just vote with their wallet I do not believe in voting, however, it has just been approved by the Polish parliament that THE SMOKING BAN IS INTRODUCED. Well, addicts, you shall adjust now to the majority.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Edited by: Olaf Mar 5, 10, 09:07 #170
... but it is not a total ban like originally proposed, so everyone will have it their way...

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,587 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂	Mar 5, 10, 11:40 #171
Olaf: ... but it is not a total ban like originally proposed, so everyone will have it their way... Actually - I have a good feeling that this amendment won't be signed into law. Think about Krakow - those huge, Rynek bars and restaurants will be subject to the smoking ban, while smaller places won't be. Of course the expensive, big places will howl - and they'll demand an equal playing field.

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Edited by: Olaf Mar 5, 10, 12:03 #172

That's true. But I see it a step forward, not sideways or back. It has to be done, and not all places on Rynek are over 100sq metres. Those bigger ones, if they think of the market and respect their customers should've done it long time ago by themselves. Now this regulation will help them. I know anti-ban people here are going to object strongly after this post, but for me examples of other countries that imposed a similar ban is good. Anyway it is not as rigid as in other countries.
Check out this article (in Polish):
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/2137323,11,zakaz_palenia_budzi_emocje_to_han ba,item.html
and other sources in English:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/yourview/1556170/Have-you-been-defying -the-smoking-ban.html
http://www.krakowpost.com/article/1913

blueboyThreads: 3 Posts: 65 Joined: Sep 19, 09 ♂	Mar 5, 10, 12:24 #173
In a word - NO!

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Mar 5, 10, 12:56 #174

Olaf:

I do not believe in voting, however, it has just been approved by the Polish parliament that THE SMOKING BAN IS INTRODUCED.
Well, addicts, you shall adjust now to the majority.

Heh, it's not a majority position. If it were, there would already be way more non smoking bars than smoking bars because people run businesses to make money.

Anyway, I've decided to once again take a break from smoking. Maybe it's time to join the fascist anti-private property alliance?

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Mar 5, 10, 14:11 #175
convex: join the fascist anti-private property alliance Yees! Do that. We are planning to take over the control of the world and you would be a great asset to our alliance:))) Anyway, if it is not a "majority position" then why according to surveys 80% people support the ban? Democracy is unfortunately about majorities (or false-majorities) deciding about all...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 5, 10, 14:19 #176
They experimented with segregation in Pizza Hut when it was here in Gliwice. It worked but smoke naturally has a tendency to waft and drift. The slightest whiff and some of the well-to-do moaning gits are off and running with their rants. The restaurant was closed down. I think it depends on the interior of the restaurant. Those with smaller dimensions make avoidance much harder of course.

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Mar 5, 10, 14:33 #177

Olaf:

Anyway, if it is not a "majority position" then why according to surveys 80% people support the ban? Democracy is unfortunately about majorities (or false-majorities) deciding about all...

Are you talking about a majority of people in the EU, in Poland, Students, pub patrons?

Depending on what you're selling, who you're selling it to, and how your selling it will get you different results. The comments in the forum are interesting...

Democracy is, but Republics aren't democracies. There are certain ground rules that have to be respected. One of those is property rights.

With any luck pubs will then turn into private clubs like in Germany and get around any kind of ban that might come up.

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Mar 5, 10, 15:20 #178

Seanus:

segregation

- harsh word, but an addict is an addict, maybe should be separated from the rest especially in restaurants etc.

Seanus:

The restaurant was closed down.

- I really think the reason for closing down was somewhat different than this.

convex:

Are you talking about a majority of people in the EU, in Poland, Students, pub patrons?

- majority of people, surveyed in Poland. Maybe it was a street survey - I could find it for you if you want...

convex:

Depending on what you're selling, who you're selling it to, and how your selling it will get you different results. The comments in the forum are interesting...

Hmmm.Can you elaborate on this please?

convex:

pubs will then turn into private clubs

- I'm happy to treat this "ban" as a kind of government's health policy. If bar proprietors decide to have a smoking bar, then I really don't mind.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀	Mar 5, 10, 15:34 #179
Olaf Check "Going home" thread, from post #22 on :)

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Mar 5, 10, 15:37 #180

Olaf:

Hmmm.Can you elaborate on this please?

It's with regards to the survey.

Do you support smokers being able smoke next to you while you are having a meal?

Do you support the government should have more control of your private property?

Do you support lowering the cost of smoking related diseases on the national healthcare system?

Do you think small business owners should be more tightly regulated?

All of those questions could be part of the survey. Even better, depending on who you ask, you will get different responses. If you go out and ask people in front of a football match if smoking should be banned, you'll probably get stabbed. If you ask the same question in front of a student dormitory, you will probably get your 80% response.

The best way to gauge the public, ask the people in the pubs...then ask people on the streets...then make that information very public so that owners can see it. If there is a business case, the majority of the pubs will very quickly be non smoking...

Olaf:

- I'm happy to treat this "ban" as a kind of government's health policy. If bar proprietors decide to have a smoking bar, then I really don't mind.

Sweet, then problem solved. Put a notice on the door that smoking occurs on the premises, and then you have it solved. Be careful about the health policy argument. Alcohol and fatty foods are more of a health risk that smoking in Poland.