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"Censorship" (ie. closing some threads) on PF


posts: 28

1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Administrator  Nov 10, 10, 07:32    #1
In addition to currently banned subject of Media's slander of Poland, which other isseues are we not allowed to discuss?

Is there a list?

I started a thread yesterday in the history section about a petition that deals with historical accuracy in the media. This is an on-going issue that is important and Polish-American organizations, the Polish Foreign Ministry, Polish media, and many citizens are involved in this issue. On a forum called PolishForums it should be made into a sticky, not dumped into a deleteable Random thread wastebasket. It is shameful. Here is the deleted OP:

Petition on German Concentration Camps

" WHEREAS the media uses the historically erroneous terms "Polish concentration camp" and "Polish death camp" to describe Auschwitz and other Nazi extermination camps built by the Germans during World War II, which confuses impressionable and undereducated readers, leading them to believe that the Holocaust was executed by Poland, rather than Nazi Germany,

WHEREAS these phrases are Holocaust revisionism that desecrate the memories of six million Jews from 27 countries who were murdered by Nazi Germany,

WHEREAS Poland was the first country invaded by Germany, and the only country whose citizens suffered the death penalty for rescuing Jews, yet never surrendered during six years of German occupation, even though one-sixth of its population was killed in the war, approximately half of which was Christian,

WHEREAS educated journalists must know these facts and not cross the libel threshold of malice by using phrases such as "Polish concentration camps."

BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the undersigned request that The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and the Associated Press, include entries in their stylebooks requiring news stories to be historically accurate, using the official name of all "German concentration camps in Nazi-occupied Poland," as UNESCO did in 2007 when it named the camp in Auschwitz, "The Auschwitz-Birkenau German Nazi Concentration and Extermination Camp (1940-1945)." "

Sign the petition here: http://www.thekf.org/events/news/petition/

..................................

The Polish government's involvement in this issue:
http://www.msz.gov.pl/Przeciw,polskim,obozom,948.html

Leading Polish newspaper's action:
http://blog.rp.pl/listotwarty/2009/05/18/apel-przeciw-polskim-obozom-s mierci-appeal-against-polish-death-camps/

your thread was binned because certain posters aren't able to discuss this issue in a civil manner
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 07:49    #2
1jola:
and the only country whose citizens suffered the death penalty for rescuing Jews


Not to want to diminish this fact in any way, but this is factually wrong. Also in the Netherlands, people were executed when they were caught hiding people the Nazis wanted.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: 1jola  Nov 10, 10, 08:29    #3
No, Stu, there was no official death penalty for aiding Jews in Holland. No such order. Here is one of such orders issued in Poland:

s

You can see one from Częstochowa here, and there are more. I'd like to see one from Amsterdam though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holoca ust
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 08:57    #4
I'm sorry 1jola ... it is factually incorrect:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederland_in_de_Tweede_Wereldoorlog:

"Joden als onderduikers hebben was extra gevaarlijk. Er stond de doodstraf op. Een derde van de mensen die dat geprobeerd hebben, hebben de oorlog niet overleefd."

"To hide Jews was extra dangerous. It was punishable by death. One third of those who tried, didn't survive the war".
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 09:13    #5
Stu:

Not to want to diminish this fact in any way, but this is factually wrong. Also in the Netherlands, people were executed when they were caught hiding people the Nazis wanted.


You're correct Stu, it was punishable by death in most occupied territories.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: 1jola  Nov 10, 10, 09:31    #6
You can repeat that many times, but the fact remains that no such penalty was ever imposed by the Germans. What I posted is a document; what you posted is some revisionist opinion.

You will find an order from 31 July 1942 that forbids Jewish women in Holland from going to beauty salons, and a 6 July order forbidding Jews the use of telephone and forbidding the Dutch from visiting them. On 8 Sptember 1942, an order forbids Jews to sit on public benches, and on 15 Septeber 1942, Jewish students are barred from universities. At this time, the Jews in Warsaw were being exterminated.

It would be interesting to see what the Germans had in mind for the Dutch aiding Jews. It must be stated in official documents. Can you search in Dutch, please?

skysoulmate:
You're correct Stu, it was punishable by death in most occupied territories.

You have to understand that the Germans made it clear what was and was not allowed in the territories they occupied. Now, find something to back up what you are saying or concede that your statement is false.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 09:38    #7
1jola:
You have to understand that the Germans made it clear what was and was not allowed in the territories they occupied. Now, find something to back up what you are saying or concede that your statement is false

Are you saying Nazis were ok with people helping out the Jews except when the help came from the Poles??
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Stu  Nov 10, 10, 09:39    #8
Sorry 1jola ... you have just one agenda and that is to show that according to you everybody is against Poland. It's bull. Just accept that the Nazis killed anyone anywhere in Europe who were caught hiding Jews or others the Nazis wanted to get their hands on.

I can't understand why this is so hard for you to accept. Whatever ... live in your own world, but when you publish factually incorrect information, don't be surprised when your thread ends up in the dustbin.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: 1jola  Nov 10, 10, 09:45    #9
Just accept that the Nazis killed anyone anywhere in Europe who were caught hiding Jews

How many Dutch were executed by the Germans for aiding Jews? Have you got anything to show for your childish opinion?
vetalaThreads: -
Posts: 512
Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: vetala  Nov 10, 10, 10:03    #10
Stu:
accept that the Nazis killed anyone anywhere in Europe who were caught hiding Jews or others the Nazis wanted to get their hands on.

Except people who hid Anne Frank's family. And many others. If even Yad Vashem acknowledges that Eastern Europe was treated much more harshly than Western Europe, let's just agree on this, without going into details, ok? Because claiming that it was the same for everyone is just as false as claiming that it was only dangerous for Poles.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 10:10    #11
Stu:
Just accept that the Nazis killed anyone anywhere in Europe who were caught hiding Jews or others the Nazis wanted to get their hands on.

First of all, it wasn't some nazis but Germans. One thing is to be ignorant of facts, but another to willingly advertise it. Yours can be classified in the myth category. Like the Soviets were our allies myth so desperately held on to.

Stu:
Whatever ... live in your own world, but when you publish factually incorrect information, don't be surprised when your thread ends up in the dustbin.

Many prominent people have read and signed this petition, including historians. You, on the other hand, are a prime example of why this petition is important and necessary.

So, your vote is for censorship. Terrific.
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 10:20    #12
1jola:
it wasn't some nazis but Germans


No ... it wasn't Germans in general. Again ... wrong facts. Again ... live in your own world. Fine by me. Talking about revisionism ... .
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 10:24    #13
I'm not into the Beavis and Buthaed discussions so please leave room for the staff to answer the questions. Were in the FAQ section.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 10, 10, 10:28    #14
1jola:
I'm not into the Beavis and Buthaed discussions


What, you don't like the fact that you've been found out to be a liar, yet again?

The fact that you continue to post this worthless, waste of time topic tells me everything.

Poland has more important things to worry about than some ridiculous grudge against American newspapers.
smurfThreads: 46
Posts: 660
Joined: Sep 8, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 11:07    #15
I don't get it, they're were built in Poland therefore they're Polish camps.

By your logic if a church is built by foreign missionaries in some country then the country they are from will always have to be mentioned when people speak about the church, sure thats a bit silly
1jola:
which confuses impressionable and undereducated readers, leading them to believe that the Holocaust was executed by Poland, rather than Nazi Germany

Wow, you really think that? like really?..... you honestly, really, think that people are going to think that, really?
*facepalm*

You've been found out luv.
Now walk away with your tail between your legs and go back to the drawing board
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 10, 10, 11:25    #16
Stu:
"To hide Jews was extra dangerous. It was punishable by death. One third of those who tried, didn't survive the war".

It was not, people from the Low Countries and France were sent to concentration camps, Poles were instantly shot.

Personally i'd ban the mods in the first place, they're either amused by what happens here like Wroclaw or ignorant cvnts who do not care like polskadoll, sadly i dont have such power so i just took a long rest from this forum, its anti-polish so are its mods and its admin.
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 11:41    #17
Sokrates:
Sokrates


Of course you know better what happened in the Netherlands, don't you? It's like me telling you what happened in your country. But think what you like: it's like trying to persuade Attila the Hun to attend a peace conference.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 10, 10, 11:47    #18
1jola:
At this time, the Jews in Warsaw were being exterminated.

And some of the heroes who took on the might of the Nazis and survived the ghetto uprising were later murdered by anti-semitic Poles. Some people suffer more than others during war. What's your point?

vetala:
If even Yad Vashem acknowledges that Eastern Europe was treated much more harshly than Western Europe, let's just agree on this, without going into details, ok?

Sounds good to me. But instead we constantly hear people banging on about how only Poles faced the death penalty for hiding Jews, which very simply is not true.

1jola:
First of all, it wasn't some nazis but Germans.

If you knew a damn thing about Nazi death camps and concentration camps, you'd know that the majority of the people involved in running them were not Germans. Or perhaps you mean that only Germans were Nazis? Pity then that 100,000 Poles joined the Nazi armed forces.

smurf:
I don't get it, they're were built in Poland therefore they're Polish camps.

No. Polish concentration camps were the ones operated by Poland both before and after WWII.
smurfThreads: 46
Posts: 660
Joined: Sep 8, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 11:53    #19
Harry:
No. Polish concentration camps were the ones operated by Poland both before and after WWII.

i did not know that, well, now she's even more wrong :-)
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 10, 10, 12:22    #20
smurf:
i did not know that,

Yes. This attention that some Poles and the Polish government gives to claiming that the use of the phrase Polish concentration camps in always wrong completely covers up the fact that concentration camps were run in Poland by the Polish government. How convenient!
BolleThreads: 3
Posts: 226
Joined: Apr 29, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Bolle  Nov 10, 10, 12:30    #21
Harry:
Pity then that 100,000 Poles joined the Nazi armed forces.


How many of these were forced to join? How many were silesians? How many were germans with polish citizenship?

Harry:
Yes. This attention that some Poles and the Polish government gives to claiming that the use of the phrase Polish concentration camps in always wrong completely covers up the fact that concentration camps were run in Poland by the Polish government. How convenient!


There were some minor detention camps run by poland before ww2, sure.

But most people, when they hear "concentration camps" they think about the camps run by the Nazis. Therefore it is important for journalists to make that distinction - when talking about the war years (and this is the only thing foreign journalists write about regarding polish history), concentration camps must be referred to as nazi-german concentration camps, not Polish, because people will start to believe that poles ran these camps during the war, not germans.
This should be fought, just like holocaust deniers are fought.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 10, 10, 12:33    #22
Bolle:
How many of these were forced to join?

All of them. Which is why so few of them changed sides before late 1944 that records weren't even kept but by May 1945 83,000 of them had.
TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Trevek  Nov 10, 10, 12:50    #23
smurf:
they're were built in Poland therefore they're Polish camps.


So is a nissan built in Britain a British car or a Japanese one? Or the fact Michelin and Phillips have factories in Poland makes them Polish companies?

There is also the argument that Poland ceased to exist as a geo-political nation after 1939 until 1945, therefore there was no Poland... hence they couldn't be Polish. The camps were set-up and adminstered by Nazi-German authorities. That makes them Nazi-German.

By your argument, the Polish Government in Exile was really British because that's where it was formed/based.


smurf:

Wow, you really think that? like really?..... you honestly, really, think that people are going to think that, really?
*facepalm*


Well, if you consider the frequency that some American Jewish posters on forums seem to have the idea that all Poles were secretly in on a deal with Hitler to destroy Judeaism, it's not such a wild idea.

The fact that many people are unaware of aspects of concentration camps, such as who the different groups of inmates were, that not all had gas chambers, the T4 project etc means that a lot of people have no idea about the subtle difference between a Poland-based camp and Polish-run camp (a different thing). Couple that with a common perception that all Poles are anti-semitic and it's not hard to make 2+2=5.
TeffleThreads: 28
Posts: 2,105
Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 12:56    #24
Trevek:
So is a nissan built in Britain a British car or a Japanese one? Or the fact Michelin and Phillips have factories in Poland makes them Polish companies?


Well, it's not a British car but it's a British factory.

Likewise, Michelin/Philips are Polish factories.
TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 10, 10, 13:00    #25
Teffle:

Well, it's not a British car but it's a British factory.

Likewise, Michelin/Philips are Polish factories.


But who makes the decision and who makes the money?
A JThreads: 19
Posts: 4,639
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: A J  Nov 10, 10, 13:15    #26
1jola:
You can repeat that many times, but the fact remains that no such penalty was ever imposed by the Germans. What I posted is a document; what you posted is some revisionist opinion.


Nazi Germany bombed the hell out of our biggest cities. (Rotterdam, Nijmegen, Enschede etc.) Nazis executed workers throughout Holland when they refused to work for Germany, which we call the Februari-strike. The same happened in the South of Holland when massive strikes happened in May. (Two brothers of my own Grandfather were shot on sight because they refused to work, and I've seen their graves so I know that story.) Many people in Holland were executed or sent off to concentration camps for aiding Jew people. Usually these people were publicly executed in the town's square as a warning to other people who might want to aid Jews. What makes you think they would have treated Dutch citizens any better than how they treated Polish citizens?

1jola:
How many Dutch were executed by the Germans for aiding Jews? Have you got anything to show for your childish opinion?


You're kidding us, right?
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Nov 10, 10, 13:20    #27
A J:
Nazi Germany bombed the hell out of our biggest cities. (Rotterdam, Nijmegen, Enschede etc.) Nazis executed workers throughout Holland when they refused to work for Germany, which we call the Februari-strike. The same happened in the South of Holland when massive strikes happened in May. (Two brothers of my own Grandfather were shot on sight because they refused to work, and I've seen their graves so I know that story.) Many people in Holland were executed or sent off to concentration camps for aiding Jew people. Usually these people were publicly executed in the town's square as a warning to other people who might want to aid Jews. What makes you think they would have treated Dutch citizens any better than how they treated Polish citizens?

I also know that Holland was close to starvation during the war - nobody had is easy during those time and to claim that Poles were the only who did is pure rubbish and suggest the lack of respect for the suffering of other nations during the WW2.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 10, 10, 13:23    #28
A J:
You're kidding us, right?

Sadly he isn't.


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