English word for "sobiepan" pls ?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 00:26 #1
The closest one in its meaning.

VincentThreads: 15 Posts: 1,706 Joined: Sep 9, 07 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 22, 10, 00:35 #2
maybe "yourself" or if for a male only, "himself"?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 00:45 #3
I don't think so. It's pretty hard - Polish-English dictionary says "independent gentleman" but according to my feeling it's wrong. Well, I would say "somebody arrogant, stupid and self-confident at the same time..." But now in one word pls:)

VincentThreads: 15 Posts: 1,706 Joined: Sep 9, 07 ♂ [Moderator]	Edited by: Vincent Dec 22, 10, 00:54 #4
sorry I mistook the word, in my dictionary the explanation is "Mandarin" a Chinese language somebody arrogant, stupid and self-confident at the same time. We would probably say that the person was a "self-righteous" **** add what ever fits here:)

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Edited by: mafketis Dec 22, 10, 01:16 #5
Borrka: Well, I would say "somebody arrogant, stupid and self-confident at the same time..." But now in one word pls:) Douchebag? Or is that too crude?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:25 #6
Douchebag: Someone who has surpassed the levels of jerk and asshole, however not yet reached fucker or motherfucker. LOL. It's not this color. Sobiepan sounds old fashioned and refers somehow to the old Polish anarchy... but again, just my feeling

VincentThreads: 15 Posts: 1,706 Joined: Sep 9, 07 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 22, 10, 01:31 #7
What about "pompous"? This fits the description

BarneyThreads: 16 Posts: 1,630 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:38 #8
supercilious?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Edited by: Borrka Dec 22, 10, 01:38 #9
Vincent: What about "pompous"? Much closer but I would translate it as "napuszony". Sobiepans were definitely pompous but it makes only a part of their personality:) They used to be lawless as well.

ZedThreads: - Posts: 304 Joined: May 25, 10 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:39 #10
Proud of himself, independent, couldn't care less about anything...

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:40 #11
Zed: Proud of himself, independent, couldn't care less about anything... And now in one word pls:)

♂

Edited by: mafketis Dec 22, 10, 01:42 #12

I think he's looking for a noun.

And, as often happens, there is none AFAIK.

General stylistic note : often where Polish prefers a noun to label a person English prefers an adjective.

Pompous windbag might do it but it's two words. For me, windbag on its own is as close as I can think of. It has the old-fashioned sound and conveys simultaneous stupidity and an unjustified sense of being right all the time. But it also implies an older person (does sobiepan?) and maybe less stupidity than simple being out of date....

There's also jackass..... corrupted by the idiotic tv show of the same name but traditionally it's kind of close.

BarneyThreads: 16 Posts: 1,630 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:50 #13
mafketis: Pompous windbag might do it but it's two words. curmudgeon

ZedThreads: - Posts: 304 Joined: May 25, 10 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:52 #14
The one word is: sobiepan. The fact that English doesn't have one does not bother me. It works in reverse that way as well.

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 01:56 #15
Barney: curmudgeon To me curmudgeon is a cranky old person (who might well be smart right about a lot of things).

BarneyThreads: 16 Posts: 1,630 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 02:06 #16
Yeah, I was going for the old-fashioned aspect. Would it be a hybrid of a spiv and a curmudgeon or something more like a wide boy?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 02:11 #17
I'm trying to check "sobiepan" on Gazeta Wyborcza Tlumaczenia Forum.

♂

Edited by: AdamKadmon Dec 22, 10, 08:11 #18

Sobiepan (słowo książkowe, rzadkie, ironiczne) - Osoba postępująca samowolnie, nie licząca się z niczym.

Norman Davies Boże igrzysko: historia Polski

Ale jeżeli tylko ziemia należała do niego i jeżeli miał chłopów pańszczyźnianych , którzy mogli na niej pracować, nikomu nie musiał niczego zawdzięczać; był possessionatus i dominus, czyli „ sobiepan". Współcześni zaliczali go do „szlachty zamożnej". Niektórzy historycy chętniej używają terminu „średnia szlachta" ....

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 11:22 #19
What about "petty tyrant" ? Sounds good...

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Edited by: AdamKadmon Dec 22, 10, 11:24 #20
So 'Sobiepan' can be translated as 'possessionatus et dominus'; that is, landowner and lord or lord and landowner. It is historically correct, in a context it may sound ironical, bookish and archaic. Etymologically it means master of himself or even closer to the original his own lord or rather lord for himself.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Edited by: Borrka Dec 22, 10, 11:31 #21
AdamKadmon: Sobiepan' can be translated as 'possessionatus et dominus' Rather law-term, isn't it ? BTW. There is an excellent Russian word for "sobiepan" ! Сaмoдyр

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Edited by: mafketis Dec 22, 10, 11:38 #22
Borrka: What about "petty tyrant" ? Sounds good... Doesn't convey the stupid part, a petty tyrant could be smart and right. Maybe martinet? For me there's less possibility for a martinet to be right and/or smart....

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Edited by: AdamKadmon Dec 22, 10, 11:52 #23

mafketis:

Maybe martinet?

No. Simply wrong.

Lord of himself, though not of lands; And having nothing, yet hath all.

Henry Wotton

Etymologically lord for himself. In the context of the Polish history there was Latin equivalent: 'possessionatus et dominus' landowner and lord. So depending on context one translation or the other will be good. The word is bookish, often ironic, sounds archaic and is rarely used. You can associate it with the Polish anarchy or Liberum Veto.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 11:53 #24
mafketis: there's less possibility for a martinet to be right and/or smart... But less possibility to be lawless what makes an important part of "sobiepan":) It's all about our fascinating drive for anarchy !

♂

Dec 22, 10, 11:56 #25

AdamKadmon:

No. Simply wrong.

Depends on the context (which Borrka has kindly decided to withhold - hint, hint)

If you're looking at dictionary meanings, yeah, it's not that close. But in context it might work. What's the point of having the 'right' dictionary meaning if the target audience doesn't understand? (like translating 'komornik' as 'bailiff' etymologically sound, but very wrong in practice).

♂

Edited by: AdamKadmon Dec 22, 10, 12:05 #26

mafketis:

If you're looking at dictionary meanings, yeah, it's not that close. But in context it might work.

Because we have common Latin heritage a dynamic equivalence is not a good choice here, so 'possessionatus et dominus' is the translation of sobiepan.

Close etymological meaning is Lord for himself, so not a martinet. It is difficult for me to imagine a context in which this translation would be justified.

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 12:10 #27
AdamKadmon: 'possessionatus et dominus' is the translation of sobiepan. In what language? Certain not in English were very, very few would understand it (and the purpose of translation is facilitating understanding). Back to the original question, there is a nice expression "a law unto himself" that might work.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 12:12 #28
mafketis: "a law unto himself" that might work. As a hybrid with petty tyrant LOL.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 12:16 #29
A reprobate or miscreant?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Edited by: AdamKadmon Dec 22, 10, 12:16 #30
mafketis: here is a nice expression "a law unto himself" that might work. Sobiepan is a person, so maybe a mogul or a tycoon. Seanus: A reprobate or miscreant? If you can call a magnate a reprobate or miscreant. What about nabob?

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