stwarając?

♂

Apr 7, 10, 00:13 #1

Any help with this appreciated. I had to copy this down from something handwritten by a doctor and am not sure about the words "stwarając" and something that looks like "wszksełmyi" but obviously can't be. Also the preceding word.

Założyciele naszej stowarzyszenia stwarając po, wytyczyli sobie następujący cel: działeć aby wszyscy ludzie korzystali tych samych praw.

Jaki są te prawa na początku obecnego tysiąclecie?

Jaki są (mi?) ??wszksełmyi?? środkami dysponujemy aby je promować i stosować w różnych społeczeństwach i kulturach w których nasza organizacja działa i w których będzie działął.

♂

Edited by: grubas Apr 7, 10, 00:24 #2

jonni:

Założyciele naszej stowarzyszenia stwarając po, wytyczyli sobie następujący cel: działeć aby wszyscy ludzie korzystali tych samych praw.

Jaki są te prawa na początku obecnego tysiąclecie?

Jaki są (mi?) ??wszksełmyi?? środkami dysponujemy aby je promować i stosować w różnych społeczeństwach i kulturach w których nasza organizacja działa i w których będzie działął.

Zakładając(Tworząc) nasze stowarzyszenie ,założyciele wytyczyli sobie następujący cel:działać w kierunku równouprawnienia wszystkich ludzi.Jakie są nasze prawa na początku tego tysiąclecia?
Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami aby prawa te promować i upowszechniać we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach w których działa lub działać będzie nasza organizacja.
You are welcome.

♂

Edited by: jonni Apr 7, 10, 00:43 #3

Thanks for your response.

The text, written by an educated Polish lady (but translated from French) has to stand more or less exactly as it is. The meaning is clear, and it ought to be in good enough Polish given the person who wrote it. My question is about transcribing the handwriting. Specifically stwarając po and są/mi wszksełmyi which are barely readable in her handwriting. This is what it looks like but it must be something else. A puzzle.

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Edited by: grubas Apr 7, 10, 00:55 #4
I seriously doubt she is educated.This text the way you have it makes sense but no educated Pole would ever put it this way.Trust me on this one.What I wrote has the same meaning and is in correct Polish.I mean "stwarzając stowarzyszenie"? U can "stwarzać problemy" but "stowarzyszenia się tworzy" or "zakłada".There is more "flowers" like this in yours text.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Apr 7, 10, 01:02 #5
grubas: I seriously doubt she is educated. She's a Polish doctor, so I imagine she is. I've found out that the first problematic word is stwardzając go (it is go not a feminine form because the word in the text that I have isn't organizacja - it is a similar word) and the other problematic phrase should read Jakimi konkretnymi środkami dysponujemy aby.. - which makes sense.

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 01:04 #6
jonni: Jakimi konkretnymi środkami dysponujemy aby.. Are you asking question?

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 01:05 #7
Yes - it is a discussion topic. I have to write a 'wprowadzenia' to get people talking.

♂

Edited by: grubas Apr 7, 10, 01:06 #8

jonni:

She's a Polish doctor, so I imagine she is.

Maybe she is good doctor but I am sure she CAN NOT write in correct Polish.

jonni:

Yes - it is a discussion topic. I have to write a 'wprowadzenia' to get people talking.

Ok then it goes "Jakimi (konkretnymi) środkami dysponujemy aby prawa te promować i upowszechniać we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach w których działa lub działać będzie nasza organizacja?"

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Apr 7, 10, 01:11 #9
grubas: I am sure she CAN NOT write in correct Polish. She is Polish. Unfortunately when one Pole writes something, it can seem that 39 million others criticise the words used - I've seen this so often and whether it's right or wrong it tends to frustrate foreigners. My problem here isn't finer stylistic points - it is reading a doctor's handwriting. But thanks for your input - it is useful.

♂

Edited by: grubas Apr 7, 10, 01:25 #10

jonni:

Unfortunately when one Pole writes something, it can seem that 39 million others criticise the words used - I've seen this so often and whether it's right or wrong it tends to frustrate foreigners. My problem here isn't finer stylistic points - it is reading a doctor's handwriting.

Look, your text seems to be written by a foraigner with decent Polish but like I have already said you CAN NOT say "stwarzając stowarzyszenie", unless you ended education on 3rd grade elemantary school level.And her style looks the same,like 3rd grader.

♂

Edited by: jonni Apr 7, 10, 01:33 #11

The lady has indeed lived abroad for many years, but was educated to doctorate level here and has spent more time here than in France. The text was translated very very quickly from French, which may explain any clumsiness. That and the lady being really very elderly and multitasking when she was writing it.

As for stwarzając, the stowarzyszenie, or organisation was created for the purpose of...

It is a human rights organisation created in the C19, and the question is how best to continue the founders' original vision today.

Out of interest, how would you render "the human condition" into Polish?

♂

Edited by: grubas Apr 7, 10, 01:50 #12

jonni:

The text was translated very quickly from French, which ay explain it.

No it doesn't

jonni:

As for stwarzając, the stowarzyszenie, or organisation was created for the purpose of...

I understand,BUT :create problems-stwarzać problemy, create(establish) organization- (u)tworzyć (or- założyć )organizacje.

jonni:

działeć aby wszyscy ludzie korzystali tych samych praw.

działać TAK , aby wszyscy ludzie korzystali Z tych samych praw.
Her style is very simple (poor),belive or not.
(Out of interest, how would you render "the human condition" into Polish?)
context?

♂

Edited by: jonni Apr 7, 10, 02:06 #13

grubas:

Her style is very simple (poor),belive or not.

Hmm. That might reflect some issues relating to age and health. I hope not - she's a very special person.

Human condition is a translation, again from an almost untranslatable old-fashioned French phrase. It refers to those aspects of being human that we can't change; that are immutable. The phrase was coined by an early feminist philosopher - she was thinking about gender and other things like skin colour, psychological makeup, physical appearance and sexuality, but also a wider meaning - the nature of being a person, our rights and duties. I usually think of it rightly or wrongly as warunek ludzkosci, however it is one of those things that is vague enough in the original. Any translation should be only two or a maximum of three words and should encourage reflection.

♂

Edited by: grubas Apr 7, 10, 02:17 #14

grubas:

understand,BUT :create problems-stwarzać problemy, create(establish) organization- (u)tworzyć (or- założyć )organizacje.

I am acctualy wrong here ,you CAN "stworzyć organizacje" but correct form of "stwarzając" in this case will be "tworząc",I am sure,but I don't know why is it like this.Trudna polska języka-)

jonni:

Human condition is a translation, again from an almost untranslatable old-fashioned French phrase. It refers to those aspects of being human that we can't change; that are immutable. The phrase was coined by an early feminist philosopher - she was thinking about gender and other things like skin colour physical appearance and sexuality, but also a wider meaning - the nature of being a person, our rights and duties. I usually think of it as warunek ludzkosci, however it is one of those things that is vague enough in the original. Any translation should be only two or a maximum of three words and should encourage reflection.

Now,you got me here-)
Warunek bycia człowiekiem(?) but honestly I am not sure.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Apr 7, 10, 02:21 #15
grubas: you CAN "stworzyć organizacje" but correct form of "stwarzając" in this case will be "tworząc" I thought it looked somehow odd. grubas: Now,you got me here-) Exactly me too. Many people have tried to translate it from the original and it just doesn't seem to work. Warunek bycia człowiekiem is maybe the best I've seen. Nineteenth century Paris was a whole different world.

♀

Edited by: aphrodisiac Apr 7, 10, 02:22 #16

Zakładając(Tworząc) nasze stowarzyszenie ,założyciele wytyczyli sobie następujący cel:działać w kierunku równouprawnienia wszystkich ludzi.Jakie są nasze prawa na początku tego tysiąclecia?
Zakładając nasze stowarzyszenie, założyciele wytyczyli sobie następujący cel: działać w kierunku upowrzechniania równouprawnienia ( left out "all people" ). Jakie są nasze prawa na początku tego wieku/tysiąclecia? (What are our rights at the beginning of this century? - kind of does not make sense, RIGHTS????)

grubas:

Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami aby prawa te promować i upowszechniać we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach w których działa lub działać będzie nasza organizacja.

I would say:
Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami mającymi za zadanie promowanie i upowrzechnianie tych praw we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach, w których będzie działać nasza organizacja.

I think is is a little smoother, but I need another Polish person to confirm it.
Warunek bycia człowiekiem(?) but honestly I am not sure. - sounds a bit strange in Polish- I have to thing of a better version.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 02:32 #17
aphrodisiac: RIGHTS? As in human rights, equal rights etc.

♂

Apr 7, 10, 02:35 #18

jonni:

Exactly me too. Many people have tried to translate it from the original and it just doesn't seem to work. Warunek bycia człowiekiem is maybe the best I've seen. Nineteenth century Paris was a whole different world.

Yea,ain't easy to translate from French thru English to Polish but from what I understood from description "Warunek bycia człowiekiem"seems to be what she meant.

aphrodisiac:

Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami mającymi za zadanie promowanie i upowrzechnianie tych praw we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach, w których będzie działać nasza organizacja.

Ofc same meaninig ,little bit different in style.And we can put this sentence together in some tens other ways,right?-)

♀

Edited by: aphrodisiac Apr 7, 10, 02:38 #19

jonni:

As in human rights, equal rights etc.

OK

so this translates as follows:

Jakie są nasze prawa na początku tego wieku/tysiąclecia? (What are our rights at the beginning of this century/millenium?

quoting grubas:

Ofc same meaninig ,little bit different in style.And we can put this sentence together in some tens other ways,right?-)
well, as long as it carries the same meaning and you said it does. Do you think it it is correct to a Polish reader then?

sorry for the editing mess, but I kept adding stuff Jonni:)

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 02:52 #20
Thanks for your help. I have to interpret and expand the questions into a kind of introduction in order to get people talking. while at the same time try to be neutral!

♂

Apr 7, 10, 02:54 #21

aphrodisiac:

Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami mającymi za zadanie promowanie i upowrzechnianie tych praw we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach, w których będzie działać nasza organizacja.

Sure, but I would say:Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami mającymi za zadanie PROMOWAĆ i UPOWSZECHNIAĆ TE PRAWA we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach, w których będzie działać nasza organizacja.
Not Prof.Miodek here-) but I guess both are correct.That's semantics afterall.

♀

Apr 7, 10, 03:10 #22

jonni:

Thanks for your help. I have to interpret and expand the questions into a kind of introduction in order to get people talking. while at the same time try to be neutral!

no problem, not an easy task. If you need further help, please feel free to contact me.

grubas:

Sure, but I would say:Dysponujemy wszelkimi środkami mającymi za zadanie PROMOWAĆ i UPOWSZECHNIAĆ TE PRAWA we wszystkich społeczeństwach i kulturach, w których będzie działać nasza organizacja.
Not Prof.Miodek here-) but I guess both are correct.That's semantics afterall.

that sounds good as well:)

♂

Edited by: Ziemowit Apr 7, 10, 13:07 #23

Nice thread about the subtelties of the Polish language. As a native speaker of Polish living in Poland, I haven't been struck at all by the use of the word "stwarzając" in the given context.

jonni:

Założyciele naszej stowarzyszenia stwarzając po [go], wytyczyli sobie następujący cel: działać tak, aby wszyscy ludzie korzystali z tych samych praw.

But you can say that the person who has written this was somewhat reckless about the language as she wrote "stwarzając go" (as "go" should stand for "po" in the text), where she should should have written "stwarzając je" (stowarzyszenie is a neutral, not a masculine noun). However, it is probably better to use "tworząc je", or use the phrase "powołując je do życia" which phrase is both simple and ceremonial, and is very often used in such a context. I would also change "korzystali" into "mogli korzystać".

jonni:

Out of interest, how would you render "the human condition" into Polish?

This phrase can be rendered by "kondycja człowieka" as in the phrase "kondycja człowieka współczesnego" (here you would mean the "moral" condition rather than a physical one) or "kondycja ludzka", but generally it would depend on the context.

♀

Edited by: asik Apr 9, 10, 16:49 #24

Ziemowit:

Nice thread about the subtelties of the Polish language. As a native speaker of Polish living in Poland, I haven't been struck at all by the use of the word "stwarzając" in the given context.

You didn't take into account that jonni couldn't understand the Polish lady's (doctorate educated) text and he converted it himself by the online translater - and managed to say, when asked, that it is the Polish Doctor text - jonni shoudn't you be ashmed of yourself?

I once knew such a lying person, he was originally from India.

♂

Aug 12, 10, 17:31 #25

asik:

he converted it himself by the online translater

Typed it straight onto this forum from the piece of paper the lady gave me . No online translator, thank you very much.

asik:

and managed to say, when asked,

Why "managed" to say?

asik:

jonni shoudn't you be ashmed of yourself?

Shouldn't you be ashamed for dragging an old thread up with the sole intent of making trouble. The English word for someone who does that is 'troll'.

asik:

I once knew such a lying person, he was originally from India.

You obviously have issues, or you wouldn't have said that, or indeed posted at all. Stop trolling.

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