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Some Macedonian, Croatian, Serbian Second Names look Polish!

DomPolski Threads: 8
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Joined: Sep 13, 2007
  ♂   Sep 13, 2007, 06:01am  #1

I see a lot of Macedonian people with ski on the end and Polish looking last names. What is the connection and are there any other countries that have the same thing (like countries like Macedonia, Croatia etc.) I would like to know because I am Polish but have some Croatian family and lots of Croatian friends.


Krzysztof Threads: 2
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  ♂   Sep 13, 2007, 07:01am  #2

it's not Macedonian, it's simply common for both languages, -ski names are considered typically Polish, so I was quite surprised when Macedonian players started to appear in the Polish soccer league and they all had the names like Mice(v)ski, Boce(v)ski, Whateverski :)

Павел     Dec 12, 2007, 01:58am  #3

Ja narodnost se Makedonski...

Тамтом броткы ж сиостра

Davidowicz= Давидовиц

blackadder Threads: 1
Posts: 230
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
  ♂   Dec 12, 2007, 05:24am  #4

Quoting: DomPolski
I would like to know because I am Polish but have some Croatian family and lots of Croatian friends.



Pozdrav zemljace:)
upisi si jos jednog.

Oryctes Threads: -
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Joined: Jul 10, 2008
  ♂   Jul 10, 2008, 05:40pm  #5

Those surnames may look similar but their origin and meaning is probably different. Polish names ending in -ski were originally names belonging to noblemen whose family owned a certain village or town. For example somebody whose family were lords of a D±browa village would bear the name of D±browski. In Poland there was no primogeniture which meant that not just the first son but all children were considered noblemen and inherited their father's noble surname, even if they did not inherit his property. That's why the class of noblemen in Poland was very numerous (about 10% of all citizens at its peak). However only part of them could be described by the English term "landed gentry". In the 19th centrury when Poland was occupied by its neighbours (Russia, Prussia and Austria) the occupants allowed some people to change their names to make them sound more noble by adding the -ski suffix. It concerned a limited number of job-related surnames, such as Kowal (blacksmith) or ¦lusarz (locksmith). That's how such popular Polish surnames as Kowalski or ¦lusarski emerged. Finally, also some polonised Jews decided to change their original names to Polish-sounding ones and then they frequently derived them from the names of cities where they lived. You may remember Max Bialystock from the hilarious comedy by Mel Brooks but it was more common to add -ski to the name of the city. Hence such names as Warszawski (Warszawa) or Lubelski (Lublin). Nowadays, you can change your surname if your present one is clearly derogative (I know a girl whose name is Oszust - a cheat/lier - she would certainly qualify;). Obviously, such people change their names to good-sounding ones such as Orłowski, Orzelski, Sokołowski etc. (but they're not allowed to use historical names, such as Sobieski or Zamoyski).

Now, as to Macedonian names I'd be delighted to find out the facts from a Macedonian. However, it seems to me their surnames are derived from the name of the family progenitor. For example, Stojanovski, Jovanovski, Todorovski, Stefanovski = the son of a Stojan, Jovan, Todor, Stefan, respectively. Surnames derived from the progenitor's name are also common in Poland but we created them by adding the -czyk or -czak suffix. For instance, a surname derived from the name of Stefan would be Stefańczyk or Stefańczak. If you came across the name of Stefanowski or Stefański in Poland, it would be derived from the name of a village/town Stefanowo or Stefanów (which in turn must have been derived from the name Stefan).

MKclarity     Aug 6, 2008, 12:57am  #6

In 1944 the Communist party of Yugoslavia essentially forced ALL Macedonians to add an "SKI" (or SKA, feminine) to the end of their names in order to weaken their sense of identity. If they chose to revolt against the change they did not receive any government services...a bit difficult when the nation is run by the government.

southern Threads: 96
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  ♂   Aug 6, 2008, 06:02am  #7

MKclarity:

In 1944 the Communist party of Yugoslavia essentially forced ALL Macedonians to add an "SKI" (or SKA, feminine) to the end of their names in order to weaken their sense of identity


Guess what?They ended in -ov before.(and some in -ic).

Seanus Threads: 18
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  ♂   Jul 3, 2009, 10:51am  #8

Some look Polish until you change them to Cyrillic ;)

eatmyshorts     Dec 8, 2009, 09:22am  #9

macedonain last names always end in "ski", or "ska" if you are female.
eg. georgevska / georgevski
croatian last names always end in "ic".
eg. cindric
polish last names always have some sort of "ak" sound at the end or end in "ka"
eg. gorczyka / karzprzak

dsjji     Dec 8, 2009, 10:23am  #10

eatmyshorts:
macedonain last names always end in "ski"

no, not always.
eatmyshorts:
polish last names always have some sort of "ak"

no,most od them don't.

Ksysia Threads: 31
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  ♀   Dec 8, 2009, 07:49pm  #11

Oryctes:
Polish names ending in -ski were originally names belonging to noblemen whose family owned a certain village or town

enough of this myth...

that was only a preferred ending and only for families who needed a last name. Chłopi can use that ending too, it's not restricted like von. (Jankowski)

Knights could carry names like:
¦winka, Buczko, D±bek, Ciołek, Podkowa, Biłozór, Wieliczko, Jarosz, Eberc, Ester, Hoffer, Bucholc, Beneszko, Wańko, Pieszko, Chmura, Miłosz, Giedrojć a nawet Alemani, Murzynowicz, Murdelio, Neapolski i Afri

Torq Threads: 46
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  ♂   Edited by: Torq  Dec 8, 2009, 08:05pm  #12

Ksysia:
enough of this myth...

It's not a myth but historical truth as regards surnames formed
200 and more years ago. Names formed since the 19th century
don't have much to do with nobility but rather with attempts of
some individuals to raise their social status.

The old "ski" ending is very much like "von". I remember professor
Miodek talking about it in one of his "Ojczyzna, polszczyzna" programs;
medieval knight Jan z Mysłowic would later become Jan Zmysłowski,
Franciszek z Orzeka would become Franciszek Orzekowski etc. etc.

You are right that many names that don't end with "ski" are also
originally noble names, like the old noble name Kiełbasa (as funny
as it may seem :)).

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
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  ♂   Dec 8, 2009, 08:22pm  #13

Ksysia:
Giedrojć a nawet Alemani

What does that mean?

Torq Threads: 46
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  ♂   Dec 8, 2009, 08:23pm  #14

Bratwurst Boy:
What does that mean?

It means "Giedrojć and even Alemani".

The second name sounds suspiciously Germanic to me ;)

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
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  ♂   Dec 8, 2009, 08:34pm  #15

Torq:
The second name sounds suspiciously Germanic to me ;)

Well...my german radar picked that up too :)

Ksysia Threads: 31
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  ♀   Dec 8, 2009, 09:22pm  #16

it had to be a German immigrant - have you picked up the African immigrants too? Murzynowicz (Moorson) and Afri?

jwojcie Threads: 3
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  ♂   Edited by: jwojcie  Dec 9, 2009, 01:40pm  #17

Oryctes:
Those surnames may look similar but their origin and meaning is probably different. Polish names ending in -ski were originally names belonging to noblemen whose family owned a certain village or town. For example somebody whose family were lords of a D±browa village would bear the name of D±browski.

Oryctes:
For example, Stojanovski, Jovanovski, Todorovski, Stefanovski = the son of a Stojan, Jovan, Todor, Stefan, respectively. Surnames derived from the progenitor's name are also common in Poland but we created them by adding the -czyk or -czak suffix.

I disagree a little. There is a lot of Polish surnames ending with -ski which originated simply with father name, for example: Adamski, Piotrowski, Stefański, Wojciechowski
(PS. Additionally, those are quite old surnames, related to Saints and Christianity in Poland)

BTW: cool map (just put your surname and look where posible relatives are...)

zdravo     Dec 16, 2009, 09:47pm  #18

Macedonian last names usually end in ovski, not just ski, whereas polish last names dont have that ov

granmagranpa1     Feb 15, 2010, 01:38pm  #19

Hmmmmm - Let me try this again :

Good day -

In the traditional sense, the surname suffix SKI is endemic to Poland and came about as an evolution within the Polish language as well as a desire by the Polish Nobility to remain "apart" from the peasantry.

Prior to the 15th century, the Nobles experienced constant frustration in the courts concerning their property holdings, rights, and status as a Polish Noble. The one name system became outdated as the population increased and transportation options extended the horizon to everyone. There were simply too many JAN's, too many TOMAS's, too many KAZIMIERZ's that answered when their name was called.

The courts had the greatest of difficulty in determining which JAN owned certain property, a problem easily identified today. As such, the Noble Poles "borrowed" from associated systems of identification and ownership based on their status - from the Latin "de", the Germanic "von" and the French "de" - through the use of the Polish letter "z".

All these systems of identification were initially applicable to the Nobility only since it's only intent was to identify undisputed property ownership, assure proper taxation, and to regulate National Defense.

So, Tomas was more specifically identified as TOMAS Z XXXXX where XXXXX was the location of his estate. TOMAS Z RYBOWO {Tomas from his estate at Rybowo) by example. This was fine for a period of time until the inconvenient truth became known. The Peasantry, which outnumbered the Nobility substantially, also had a need to further identify as well, so they adopted the Noble system as a nation.

This situation infuriated the Nobility because now they were back at 'square one', where confusion in court resumed and their status as a Nobleman was not immediately recognized. Change two !!

The Nobility took matters into their own hands after the 15th century. They coined the suffix "SKI" simply as a choice, since there was absolutely no Polish identifying suffix at that time that even came close to a "SKI". So, all Polish Nobles "en masse" changed the system whereby TOMAS Z RYBOWO officially became TOMAS RYBOWSKI.

And here is the key : they changed the law and consequently the language whereby ONLY the Nobility could use the SKI, forbidden for use by the peasantry, punishable by death. At that time, the SKI equivocated to TOMAS FROM HIS ESTATE AT RYBOWO, known simply as TOMAS RYBOWSKI.

This solved the problem for an extended period of time, however, and eventually, the peasantry once again had the final say (so as to speak). Slowly, they adopted the use of the suffix SKI as well - simply a matter of "getting ahead" (chuckle). The trials and tribulations of Polish wars, occupation, and Noble inheritance regulated prosecution to the back burner at best and there were simply too many people to prosecute.

Eventually, the Feudal system became "modified" then fell. The definition of the SKI suffix also changed from use by a privileged class to use by all. As such, SKI now means OF or FROM, and that's how it remains today. TOMAS OF -or- FROM RYBOWO.

opts Threads: 10
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  ♂   Edited by: opts  Feb 15, 2010, 05:40pm  #20

Oryctes,

My last name ends in "cki". Would tell me its meaning?
Also, I noticed that some German names end in "eke" and almost sound like "cki" especially in English. Any insights?

Seanus Threads: 18
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  ♂   Feb 15, 2010, 07:23pm  #21

Well, they are Slavic after all so it's quite natural. They are basically Slavs that migrated south a long time ago so the lineology is still there.

Crow Threads: 179
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  ♂   Feb 16, 2010, 11:07am  #22

Its simple. We are all Sarmatians.

Just Sarmatian heritage in Poles and Serbs goes hand in hand with Slavic heritage and don`t exclude each other.

Macedonians are in crisis of identity. They don`t have ideas of their Sarmatian origin. Significant number of population don`t see itself as Slavic at all but still, most of people feel Slavic. Those who don`t see itself as Slavic tend to be declared as Bulgarians but in process of Bulgarization they adopted non-Slavic ideas of Bulgarian origin (with it they see itself as of Turkic origin). On the other side some of Macedonians say that Macedonians aren`t of Slavic origin but that Macedonians represent unique ethos.

Croatia. Well, Croatian society is deeply Germanized. Ideas of non-Slavic origin of Croats they impose already on a little children in primary schools. Croatian intelligentsia force ideas of Gothic-German Croatian origin. But, listen this, even when speak of its Sarmatian background Croatian authors see Sarmatians as Irano-Turkic ethos and absolutely negate that in fact Slavs are/were Sarmatians.

Behind all non-Slavic ideas in case with Macedonian and/or Croatian origin stays strong German state and policy of constant weakening of Slavs in the region. Unfortunately, i must say, EU support German expansion on Balkan. That way EU establishment telling us that see Slavs as problem and Slavic lands as areas opened for conquest.

tomaszmojsiejuk Threads: -
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  ♂   Feb 16, 2010, 11:47am  #23

Crow:
Croatia. Well, Croatian society is deeply Germanized. Ideas of non-Slavic origin of Croats they impose already on a little children in primary schools. Croatian intelligentsia force ideas of Gothic-German Croatian origin. But, listen this, even when speak of its Sarmatian background Croatian authors see Sarmatians as Irano-Turkic ethos and absolutely negate that in fact Slavs are/were Sarmatians.

I have a croatian friend and he said that some people believe that croats arent slavic and that they migrated west from iran which he thinks is absolute bull****

Crow Threads: 179
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  ♂   Edited by: Crow  Feb 16, 2010, 12:38pm  #24

tomaszmojsiejuk:
I have a croatian friend and he said that some people believe that croats arent slavic and that they migrated west from iran which he thinks is absolute bull****

good that he think that it is BS. You have valuable friend

Foreigner4 Threads: 14
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  ♂   Feb 16, 2010, 12:45pm  #25

some Polish second names look Macedonian, Croatian, and Serbian

Crow Threads: 179
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Joined: Feb 14, 2007
  ♂   Edited by: Crow  Feb 16, 2010, 01:45pm  #26

Foreigner4:
some Polish second names look .... Serbian

logical. Not only because our common Slavic ancestry but many Poles have Serbian ancestry due to large number of Serbian refuges from medieval Serbia because of Ottoman Turkish invasion.

In that time, many Serbs emigrated to Poland, Hungary, Italy, Austria, Lithuania, Russia and Ukraine. But definitely, most of our people that leaved that time Serbia finished permanently settled in Poland, Ukraine and Russia. Whole regiments of Serbian winged light cavalry were despached to Poland from Ras (most powerfull medieval Serbian land; that`s why Serbs in Poland were known as Racowie) to fight against Teutons and Turks in time of King Wladislaw Warnenchyk, by involvement of Zawisha Czarny and King Jan Sobieski.

for example, you have Polish surname Rakowski. It could be direct derivation from Racowie

Trevek Threads: 27
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  ♂   Edited by: Trevek  Feb 23, 2010, 11:50am  #27

zdravo:
Macedonian last names usually end in ovski, not just ski, whereas polish last names dont have that ov

Not sure I agree, just looking at my class list last night, out of 25 students I have:

Romanowski
Fiorkowska
Markowski
Wrzykowski
Krasowski
Rutkowska
Gutkowski

plus I know of people with names like:

Czechowski
Kochanowski

Perhaps important to consider that in Yugoslavia you could choose your 'nationality' from any of the major ones (Croatian, Serbian, macedonia etc) or just be "Yugoslavian", so what might appear to be Macedonian might be originally Serbian or Bulgarian (or even Greek names)

opts:
Also, I noticed that some German names end in "eke" and almost sound like "cki" especially in English. Any insights?

Might be germanised versions of slavic names. Maybe someone 'decided' to become German, or the family lived so long in a german area that they just 'became' a german family. I've also heard of Germans/Jews who adopted Polish names for a variety of reasons and perhaps just 'polonised' their german/yiddish name.

marqoz Threads: -
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  ♂   Feb 27, 2010, 03:22am  #28

Crow:
Rakowski. It could be direct derivation from Racowie

Rakowski is patronymic from Rak or toponymic from Raki, Rakowo, Rakowa, Rakówka.
There is no slightest fonetical path to draw it from Racowie, sorry.

selo     Jun 26, 2010, 03:37am  #29

MKclarity:
In 1944 the Communist party of Yugoslavia essentially forced ALL Macedonians to add an "SKI" (or SKA, feminine) to the end of their names in order to weaken their sense of identity. If they chose to revolt against the change they did not receive any government services...a bit difficult when the nation is run by the government

That's not true. My father was born in the 20's and his name ended with ski

Crow Threads: 179
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  ♂   Aug 18, 2010, 12:49am  #30

marqoz:
Rakowski is patronymic from Rak or toponymic from Raki, Rakowo, Rakowa, Rakówka. There is no slightest fonetical path to draw it from Racowie, sorry.

you are maybe right but still, fact is that many Poles have some Racowie (Serbians) in their direct ancestry



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