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Are Poles aware of Thracian aspect in original roots of Polish ethos?


z_darius 14 | 3,965
17 Apr 2010 #31
The only thing I can think of would be officially denying of the Holocaust actually (you can even do it private if you feel the need).

Not just denying, but debating ;)

I doubt the League needed to convert...erm...aquire members with a sword to their head!
The Church was and still is about power...the League was about trade...

OK, you got a point there, but isn't economy the weapon of today?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,746
17 Apr 2010 #32
newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hanseatic_League

Ha! :)

...The League is widely regarded as a forerunner of the European Community both as a free trade zone and as an entity that had to balance the interests of the larger polity with the identities and interests of its members on the other.[1][2]

The founding fathers of the European Union were also convinced that trade, resource sharing and economic convergence would prevent war and promote peace. Behind this stand the achievements of the Hanseatic League.

OK, you got a point there, but isn't economy the weapon of today?

It became so in the time of the League too...the following fights and powerstruggles became their downfall in the end! :(

Not just denying, but debating ;)

I personally don't see any sense in debating it...and with me probably most Germans neither.
Either you accept that the Holocaust happened or not. Debating about what??? Numbers??? Come on...
z_darius 14 | 3,965
17 Apr 2010 #33
Either you accept that the Holocaust happened or not. Debating about what??? Numbers???

Debating that has nothing to do with rejecting that the holocaust happened. It did and there were close to 20 million victims Slavs, Jews, Roma, gays etc. I mean debating about details which lead to a more complete picture a.k.a truth. Like the one academics like to research.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,746
17 Apr 2010 #34
Oh that, that is of course allowed...whole armies of historians are still dedicated to it.
Remember the last article of the Spiegel I posted a link to what started an ugly flame war here?
It was about the Demjanjuk case and about the newest research about the voluntarily collaboration with the Nazis in the occupied countries...helping them to find and kill the Jews and other "unwanted objects", which was much higher than many want to admit today.

Nearly every day you can find new articles. Just yesterday I read an interview with an ex-SS officer who was overseeing the murder of baltic Jews. Spiegel found him in an retirement home.

It was the only one and last interview he ever gave, he died 95 years old in March. He was sought as war criminal, got a death sentence in Nürnberg, got free after 5 years and lived his life out in Germany without problems even as he was high up on the wanted-list, he had help.

The historians also posted a list of people who helped him...

There is debate and research alright, just not denial!
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
17 Apr 2010 #35
2. Although Czechs and Slovaks have animosities towards Poland because of München treaty and the commie invasion they may be some difficulties BUT they were never occupied in that sense that Poles governed them (in the meaning that they remember it and what kind of effect it gave them)

Serbians are aware that first move won`t come from Poland. We understand Polish situation. We expect Poland to follow after definitely conclude what is best for her. After Poland announce her choice, Serbians would support Warsaw as capital and Polish language as official in Confederation. Others would follow Serbs. Those who won`t follow Serbs, would then follow Poles. Goal would be achieved in any case

When Serbia consolidates and publicly announce priorities in her foreign politics (Sarmatian Confederation), Slovakia is first that would support us, immediately followed by Czech Rep. Ukraine choice to support Serbia would be crucial and decisive. After it, would be obvious that Russia won`t make problems to Serbs and oppose to formation of Confederation. Romania would then follow for strategic reasons and then Moldova, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Crna Gora (Montenegro).

That would be end of first stage, where would some unification/alliance of above mentioned countries happen. That is situation what Poland needs to be sure that can enter on the field of strategic-European politics. That is situation what Serbians must prepare.

When Poland announce her conditions for enter into Confederation and when Poland publicly support the idea, Hungary would follow for strategic reasons (as Romania before it). Then Slovenia would found enough of her courage to accept idea of Sarmatian Confederation and last part of puzzle would be Croatia. i expect Germany to oppose here via her instruments in Croatia. It is even possible situation to result in dissolution of Croatia on pro-German Zagreb (real ethnic Croatia) and pro-Serbian Dalmatia and Slavonia. In any case most of Croatia goes into Confederation.

In the meanwhile, Byelorussia would, i believe, join into Confederation, as well as Baltic states. i even believe that Greece could possible found interests to join for strategic reasons. We shall see for Scotland, Welles and Irish island, as well as for Lusatia. Its hard to tell now. But, i am optimist. Austria could be possible even dissolute in that process.

After formation of Sarmtain Confederation, would be peace in Europe.

3. As Germany-Austria-Hungary have history of co-operating with each other they would with no problems add Poland into it, the only problem is that some countries may look at it as Germany+ Austria-Hungarian empires right before ww1, not only superpowers but Czechs and Slovaks too (especially Serbia when thinking of Crow :))

nothing won`t remind of Germany and Austria or of Austro-Hungaria. What is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

France and England (note, i didn`t say Britain but England) would get chance to retreat. i see them how forming and merging civilization with Germany, Turkey, Albania, Italy and Spain and with some other minor western European states. On the end they would all together merge with North Africa and Israel, Near east.

7. Although Kaliningrad would be an problem as to if Germany would want it or if it should been incorporated into Poland for a sum of money (cause some kind of war over it is ridiculous) or was the idea of an Poland-Lithuania kind of state, Swedish-Norwegian union or more of a Russian federation or kind of like EU?

Kaliningrad goes into Sarmatian Confederation. It would be Russia`s gift for strategic reasons
Torq
17 Apr 2010 #36
i even believe that Greece could possible found interests to join for strategic reasons.

Greeks are currently riding and milking this cow...

...so, I'm not sure if replacing that cow with a white-red one, would be such a good idea, Crow. *rolls eyes*

was the idea of an Poland-Lithuania kind of state, Swedish-Norwegian union or more of a Russian federation or kind of like EU? (to Torq)

The closest analogy I could name would be Austria-Hungary (without the unstable southern elements).

I agree on most of the points you made in your post, Grunny - bring on the Central European Empire!
southern 74 | 7,074
17 Apr 2010 #37
and milking this cow...

This cow produces some poisonous milk.

I'm not sure if replacing that cow with a white-red one, would be such a good idea,

Not a so bad idea as it may seem.We will see what the future brings.
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
17 Apr 2010 #38
Greeks are currently riding and milking this cow...

good. when Greeks finish with cow, cow would face oblivion. Serbs have old proverb `bankrupt as Greece`

.so, I'm not sure if replacing that cow with a white-red one, would be such a good idea, Crow. *rolls eyes*

well, we would give them some milk and they some see to us. After they consume cow that is mentioned above, that would be enough to them

This cow produces some poisonous milk.

Greeks are immune

Not a so bad idea as it may seem.We will see what the future brings.

well said

by oldest Greek sources, all Greece was at first populated with Thracians and as along as Spartans existed, they existed as Thracians, never fully subjugated to the Hellenes/Greeks

300 - This is madness. This is Sparta!

youtu.be/-qR0Uke2XNI

300 Insane Fight Scene
...

This was about Sarmatia! about most southern most Sarmatians

just to tell you Poles, so that you don`t give up. What American interests? What British interests? or French? or German? Canadian? WHAT?!!

What ARE Polish interests? Where are Polish interests? Are we all totally brainwashed? In PIZDU MATERINU with all ******* interests EXCEPT WITH POLISH INTERESTS!!!

For Sarmatia! For Poland! For Slavic civilization!

FREEEEEEDOM!!!

Polish Pride



Kaczynski in UN: I, too, have my competencies and I am saying with severity - there will be no signature of mine on appointing an ambassador to Kosovo,"
Torq
18 Apr 2010 #39
Polish ABC - Adriatyk, Bałtyk, Czarne

Sarmatian Confederation

Below - the latest update on future Sarmatian Confederation map after Serbia,
Croatia and Macedonia showed Poland their middle fingers and used "the volcanic
ash" as a puny excuse to not attend the funeral of Lech Kaczyński - great friend
of Slavija, Sarmatia and especially Serbia (he refused to send ambassadors
to Kosovo).
Seanus 15 | 19,674
18 Apr 2010 #40
Slavic nations show rampant nationalism yet LK was willing to take a stand in the interests beyond immediate Poland. Serbia must know that his hands were tied. Even by siding against the big powers, he did a brave thing. It's the old verstehen approach, try to put yourself in another person's shoes.
Torq
18 Apr 2010 #41
True, Seanus. And still after his tragic death - Serbia has shown him the middle finger,
slapped him in the face and spat on his grave. The man who was the greatest friend
of Serbia and refused to send ambassadors to Kosovo - that's what he got from Racowie.

:-(
Seanus 15 | 19,674
18 Apr 2010 #42
It would appear to be that way! Even Germanic Merkel is taking the bus up from Italy which is further away than Serbia, or equidistant at least. What does that say?

He has many travel options, not just planes. Are exclusive buses not good enough for him? What is so pressing in Serbia that he can't take time off and let sb else deal with it for a couple of days?

Did Croatia send anybody?
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
18 Apr 2010 #43
Below

you could do this to us?! Leave us in eternal sh**??
Torq
18 Apr 2010 #44
You did this to yourself. My heart is crying, but after the democratically elected
Serbian president, representing Serbian people, spits on the grave of Lech Kaczynski
we have no other options but to delay your acces to Sarmatian Confederation. Sorry.

Did Croatia send anybody?

No, but Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Montenegro did. Fair play to them.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
18 Apr 2010 #45
Comity must play a part and international gestures. It is the fulcrum/pivotal point on which international relations are based and Serbia has huge numbers of politicians. It doesn't have to be the Head of State as countless other countries put forward others, sending them as a token gesture of support.

Even the Muslims in Bosnia sent sb? Are you sure, Torq? (clears his throat)
Darun 1 | 55
18 Apr 2010 #46
Kaczynski in UN: I, too, have my competencies and I am saying with severity - there will be no signature of mine on appointing an ambassador to Kosovo,"

Interesting... Why did Poland stay by Kosovo side at the International Court of Justice against Serbia?
Seanus 15 | 19,674
18 Apr 2010 #47
Maybe they understood dodgy geopolitics and that Kosovo was Serbian as late as 2006 (officially) until it was taken away in Feb 2008.
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
18 Apr 2010 #48
Interesting... Why did Poland stay by Kosovo side at the International Court of Justice against Serbia?

It was Tusk. Tusk just obey to his masters from EU and NATO. Kaczynski was patriotic Polish leader, aware of Polish national interests and aware of truth in case of event on Balkan. So, there is no more Kaczynski and...
MareGaea 29 | 2,751
18 Apr 2010 #49
Are Poles aware of Thracian aspect in original roots of Polish ethos?

So what you're asking is: if Polish ppl know that there is a certain Thracian aspect in their original way of looking at things/their original mentality?

What the heck do you mean with that?

>^..^<

M-G (knows that crow likes to speak in riddles, but sometimes he needs to clarify things a bit for good understanding)
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
18 Apr 2010 #50
So what you're asking is: if Polish ppl know that there is a certain Thracian aspect in their original way of looking at things/their original mentality?

What the heck do you mean with that?

simple, that Poles were/are Thracians who migrated to the north, along the Danube River
Seanus 15 | 19,674
18 Apr 2010 #51
Maybe but I think the Kashub, Tusk, isn't aware of that. Don't let politics take people away from their roots. Interpersonal relations will always hold more sway and you can see the Slavic spirit, most notably at metal concerts. Arkona of Russia, Nokturnal Mortum of Ukraine, plenty in Poland etc etc.
MareGaea 29 | 2,751
18 Apr 2010 #52
simple, that Poles were/are Thracians who migrated to the north, along the Danube River

Ah, then you should've stated if the Poles were aware of their Thracian Roots. Ethos is sth different, you know.

It's not certain that this is the case though. Romanians, yes, they descent from the Thracians, but I don't think Thracians, even though they moved around a lot, did go as far North as Poland. In fact, it states nowhere that they came north of the Balkans. Furthermore, you Serbs yourself don't even descent from the Thracians, but from the Illyrians. And the Poles are even further up North. So I don't think there are any Thracian roots in the Poles.

Romanians consider themselves as non-Slavic, so it doesn't make sense to say that Thracians were one of the forefathers of the Poles.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
cdnpp 1 | 4
21 Apr 2010 #53
There's a possibility that Balto-Slavic and Thracian may have been on the same branch of Indo-European. They both have the Satem sound change and in pagan times, the Thracians main god was Perkon which looks very similar to the most important god in Balto-Slavic mythology known as Perkunas, Perkons, Perun, etc. And in both Balto-Slavic and Thracian, this god was associated with thunder and oak trees..
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
10 May 2010 #54
anyway... more on Poland and Poles as autohtonous people on their own....

(e) The totally absurd thesis of the so called 'late arrival' of the Slavs in Europe must be replaced by the scenario of Slavic continuity from Paleolithic, and the demographic growth and geographic expansion of the Slavs can be explained, much more realistically, by the extraordinary success, continuity and stability of the Neolithic cultures of South-Eastern Europe (the only ones in Europe that caused the formation of tells) (Alinei 2000, fc.b)

Source: Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT), by Italian scientist Mario Alinei

Oldest Byzantine chronicles used to designate Balkan Serbs as Triballi, who were known as main Thracian tribes

Thomas A. Emmert. Serbian Golgotha, Kosovo, 1389, New York, 1990. [selections, translated texts relating to the "Kosovo Legend."]

pp. 93-95: From the second half of the fifteenth century, Ducas, in his History of the Byzantines, shows a warm emphathy for the Serbs:

In that same year Orkhan, the ruler of the Turks, died bequeathing his dominion to his son Murad who, having become the master of the Thracian cities, besieged Adrianople and took possession of all of Thessaly with the exception of Thessaloniki. Since he now held practically all the lands of the Romans, he advanced to the Triballi [Serbs]. He destroyed many of their fortresses and towns and took their inhabitants captive; he then transported them to the Asiatic shore over the straits of the Chersonese. When Lazar, the son of Stefan, kral of Serbia, and himself kral of Serbia at that time, beheld these things, he assembled all his forces and joined battle with the tyrant; many fell on both sides. There took place afterwards an incredibly novel stratagem.

Seanus 15 | 19,674
10 May 2010 #55
I was watching a recent video of fighting between Albanians and Macedonians. Albanians claim to be Ilyrians and that they have a right to most of the Balkans. Serbians no doubt grew tired of this but the Serbs have problems of their own now.

Most Poles aren't into ethnicity, Crow.
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
10 May 2010 #56
Most Poles aren't into ethnicity, Crow.

all of us has ancestors. To most people ancestors are important, this way or another

Serbians no doubt grew tired of this but the Serbs have problems of their own now

what you expected. NATO bombarded Kosovo and whole Serbia, killing many people no matter ethnic background. Not to mention all chaos on terain caused by NATO attack
Seanus 15 | 19,674
10 May 2010 #57
I meant ethnicity on a broader scale. They are Europe's equivalent of Japan, very self-obsessed people when it comes to introspective looks at themselves. Just like Japanese don't identify with their Asian ethnic kin, Poles prefer to look away most of the time and focus on their own.

If Poland was an island like Britain, it would never abandon the policy of splendid isolation ;) ;)
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
15 May 2010 #58
in our search for deepest Polish roots we inevitably coming to Balkan as Polish starting point. This goes for all the Sarmatians and we can say that their first steps on European soil, after Ice age was finished started from Balkan. That`s why there, on Balkan, Sarmatian name (by official linguistic science) was preserved in form of Serbian ethnic name. But, if we follow Danube river, we actually follow steps of first Sarmatians. That`s why on the line Balkan-Baltic, along the Danube river we always founding new traces of Serbian name as designation for ethoses (Lusatian and Balkan Serbs), as form of culture (Polish Sarmatism).

Obviously, Sarmatian name represent once universal Proto-Slavic ethic name. Bearers of Serbian/Sorbian name just preserved in use that old original, same way as Poles preserved memory on Sarmatism.

So, all Slavs, including Poles, are autohtonous (native) people on their own land, not some unknown newcomers invaders as Germanic scholars suggests in their science with pollitical background. But, not only that, Proto-Slavs were first Europeans, maybe even ancestral race of all Europeans.

The Mystery of The Thracians

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IiZIn05jOBM

Thomas A. Emmert. Serbian Golgotha, Kosovo, 1389, New York, 1990. [selections, translated texts relating to the "Kosovo Legend."]

pp. 93-95: From the second half of the fifteenth century, Ducas, in his History of the Byzantines, shows a warm emphathy for the Serbs:

In that same year Orkhan, the ruler of the Turks, died bequeathing his dominion to his son Murad who, having become the master of the Thracian cities, besieged Adrianople and took possession of all of Thessaly with the exception of Thessaloniki. Since he now held practically all the lands of the Romans, he advanced to the Triballi [Serbs].

here, we mentioned Thracians/Tribally designated as Serbs, in old Byzantine chronicles

Thracians according Herodotus:

Spot this:

Triballi

The Triballi were an ancient Thracian tribe whose dominion was around the plains of south Serbia and west Bulgaria, at the Angrus and Brongus (the South and West Morava) and the Iskur River, roughly centered where Serbia and Bulgaria are joined.

This Thracian tribe has etymologically been connected with the Serbs, as many medieval Byzantine historians referred to the Serbs as the Triballians (Serbian name for Triballians is "Srblji, Thracians is rašani - the first Serbian state was Rascia, present-day Serbia). Trebinje, a present city of Herzegovina and historical Serbian principality (Travunija, Triballia) has also been connected with this tribe. The Triballi had received influences from Celts, Scythians and Illyrians.

Triballi

Triballi -main Thracian tribe

Now, to connect name of Sarmatia and Thracia >>>

Raci

Raci (Раци, Hungarian: Rác, (pl.) Rácok, German: Ratzen, Raize, (pl.) Raizen, Ratzians, Rasciani, Rascians) was a name used to designate Serbs, or sometimes, in a wider perspective, all South Slavs, in the Middle Ages and the early modern times. The name was primary used by Hungarians and Germans and it derived from the name of medieval Serbian principality - Raška (Rascia). The southern parts of the Pannonian Plain were also named Raška (Rascia in Latin, Ráczság or Ráczország in Hungarian and Ratzenland or Rezenland in German).

SRBI / SRBLJI / RASHANI (original forms) = SARMATI / TRIBALLI/ THRACIANS / TRACI (forms written and pronounced by foreigners, Greek and Latin authors)

If someone, for example, asked ancient (all to the middle age) Serbs who are LEDJANI, only answer would be ``its our own people that once in deep past went to the north, on frozen lands``. Yes, LEDJANI is Serbian form of LECH, oldest Polish ethnic designation and means `people from the ice`.

So Poles, Serbs would tell you that Poles originate from Balkan, that early Polish ancestors along the Danube river slowly (after Ice age was finished, some 12.000 years ago- in that time already Slavic speaking!) dispersed from Balkan to what is today`s Poland and further. In that part of Europe, on the north of Europe, ancestors of Poles were first Whites, pioneers that conquered nature of Europe, not other Europeans.

There are also other branches of Proto-Slavs that bypassed Anatolia and Balkan on their historical path and arrived in Europe via Caucasus/Eurasia (i don`t speak of Russians here, considering that genetic science confirmed that Russian genetic stock came from Poland). That other branch later mixed with the Danubian branch, contributing to all today existing Slavs. Anyway, its just ancient story of inter-Slavic migrations. But Balkan is the main source, ancestral place for bulk of our population. And, that ancient Proto-Slavic Balkan-Baltic Danubian line gave roots to the Western civilization.
king polkakamon - | 542
15 May 2010 #59
we inevitably coming to Balkan as Polish starting point.

I don't think that Poles came from Balkan.Actually I find it impossible.In my opinion they most probably came from the area which is now central Ukraine and mixed with germanic tribes which were living easter of Oder.

The reason we know about Thracians,Illyrians etc and not about folks easter of Oder or near dnipr is that the former were living closer to Greeks and so they were refered in history books which were written by Greeks.Actually there is no especially favourable reference to Thracians except their blonde hair and tall body stature.
OP Crow 155 | 9,025
15 May 2010 #60
I don't think that Poles came from Balkan.Actually I find it impossible.In my opinion they most probably came from the area which is now central Ukraine

impossible. When Ice age finished on Balkan and people started to migrate along the Danube River, Ukraine territory was still for long under the ice.

Also, have in mind that Serbs have name LEDJANI (Lech) for Poles. LEDJANI in Serbian coming from word LED (ice).

Then, if Swedes originate from Thracians, meaning Sarmatians, Poles for sure originate from the same source. After all, Poles remembered their Sarmatian roots much batter then Swedes.

Thracians: Ancestors of the Swedes

SWEDISH WEB SITE

osterholm.info/thracian.html

The origins of the Thracians, and thus the Swedes, can be traced back to secular and biblical history. Chapters 9 and 10 of Genesis describe how the nations developed from Noah's three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Recorded history continually verifies the biblical account of the spread of nations.

After the Greek victory over the Persians (449 BC), the Persian king Xerxes (486-465 BC) established for himself a large army among whose soldiers Herodotus mentions Thracians from northwest Asia Minor, who are described as follows:

"The Thracians joined the expedition wearing fox caps, wearing long coats under their vivid colored capes. Their calf-high footwear was made of deerskin. They were equipped with spears, light shields and small daggers."

What is biggest European ethos? Slavs of course, they always were.

From above link >>>

Dio Cassius, Roman historian in the 2nd century AD, wrote "let us not forget that a Trajan was a true-born Thracian."

Thousands of Trojan warriors left the city of Troy during the 11th century BC. They came north and captured land along the banks of the river Don (southwestern Russia), a major trade route. The locals named the Trojan conquerors the "Aes," meaning "Iron People," for their superior weaponry. The tribes of Trojan Aes would eventually move north, settling in present-day Scandinavia.

and mixed with germanic tribes which were living easter of Oder.

also impossible. In that time there was no any `Germanic` tribes/ethos. Its myth of German historical school. Just later in history existed Roman province of Germania and was populated with Slavs. When those Slavs from Roman province of Germania were Romanized and then Germanized, German ethos was born and named by the name of province- Germania.

amazing, amazing... all this is about Thracians. once when we established correlation between Thracians and Sarmatians we are fascinate with proportions of untold history of Slavs, particularly of Poles (considering that we are on Polish forum).

Tharcains (Sarmatians) in the deepest past were stretched from Anatolia via Balkan to the Baltic. Then, more later from west of Europe to the Ind river. Great, amazing, fascinating, successful people and civilization. And those Thracians were nothing but our Proto-Slavic ancestors. Thracians, Sarmatians, Scythians, Hittites, Cimerians, Celts, Gauls, Iliryans, Dardanians, Dacians, Spartans, Trojans... all those ethic designations were/are actually part of impossible deep and rich, fascinating and beautiful Slavic past.

The Conquest of Anatolia by the Carpatho-Danubians

dacia.org/history/anatol_e.html

Anatolia had been - for several centuries - subject to a Balkan tribal federation - the Phrygians, whose king Midas became legendary for the opulence of Gordion, the capital." One should not forget that only a few km east of Anatolia, another empire - the Urartu Kingdom - flourished, only to disappear into the black hole of history.

Between the Greek colonies on the shores of the Thracian Sea and the Phrygians, another Thracian kingdom was soon founded - the Lydians'. In roughly the 6th century BC, Anatolia was once more invaded, this time by the [b]Cimmerians (themselves of Thracian origin).



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