If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 19:46 #211
Torq: (but that's nothing that a couple of months on PF wouldn't fix.) Oh yeeeeaaaaah....

♀

Mar 3, 10, 19:52 #212

Nathan:

It seems he had so much more deeper he couldn't openly say because of the censure.

He wasn't forced to 'glorify' Polish culture and write in Polish. It was his preference. Why do you want him to be Lithuanian and feel Lithuanian so badly? He had dual identity, just like many people in those times. He was a Lithuanian (his local identity) because of the place of birth, but could be Ruthenian as well. So which culture Mickiewicz family in fact abandoned – Ruthenian or Lithuanian? He didn't even differentiate clearly between Ruthenian and Baltic Lithuanian language, and Lithuanian nationalism was based on linguistic identity (by this criterion, Mickiewicz was Polish). How many generations has to pass before a Ruthenian becomes Lithuanian, and a Lithuanian becomes Polish?

♂

Mar 3, 10, 20:04 #213

(but that's nothing that a couple of months on PF wouldn't fix.)

;)

It would be very great if that would work out...

Mòrsczi Púrtk

P.S.: Sorry that I'm posting again this link, but I thnik it got down a bit under the whole discussion: http://www.wehrmacht-polacy.pl/index.html (It's not a nazi site or something like that.) Please take a look at the biographies, they are really interessting, or should I say really sad :( ?

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 3, 10, 20:28 #214

Sorry, Morsczi, I have problems with that site....maybe it's the google translations but that sounds alot like the alibi what goes around now for decades.

If they were Germans they were as forced into the Wehrmacht as any other German youth of that time because of the conscription.
There were no ethnic Poles forced into the Wehrmacht as there were not ethnic Germans forced into the polish army.
And for being acknowledged as a German eligible for conscription you had to be able, healthy, male and your german passport OR in the cases of the lost territories after the Treaty of Versailles documents showing your german heritage, for those the Volkslisten were developed.

Of course, later in the war with the german troops now having access to nearly every german minority in many european countries and in dire need of more cannonfodder the requirements got lowered and lowered, now even once having a german shephard could help you along...;)
But still the principal did stand...you had to be German to get into the Wehrmacht.
The place for non-german volunteers was the Waffen-SS or other "Hilfstruppen"...

Also this "under duress" being nearly every second word....yes, everybody and it's grandmom (not Torqis) was after Germany lost of course now an anti-german resister. But think about it yourself how much of these stories were alibis needed to survive the after war chaos and how much of it had been true...

That site is biased and everything but honest and objective. I really thought that today after nearly 70 years after all that and Poles and Germans slowly reconciliating with each other we can stop these lies!

PS: And another thing to show how messed up everything then was...you feel as a Kashub being a proud Slav.
Günther Grass was (is) of kashubian heritage like you, I doubt he feels anything but fully German!

THE HITMAN

Mar 3, 10, 20:29 #215

Torq:

I have no idea why you need to build-up your feeling of self-worthiness in such way.

Well you surprise me Torq, now you,re a psychologist.

Morsczi_Purtk:

Torq, I absolutly agree with your post.

A creep, looking for an ally.

Bratwurst Boy:

Bratwurst Boy

I did have an answer to your post 207, but it,s on hold due to the wisecracks.

To you all, it seems if someone on here does not comply with your opinions, then you chose to ridicule and discredit that person. You have neither the integrity, patience or culture to respect someone elses opinions ( no matter how right or wrong they may be ).
In fact some of you are very childish and immature.

I may be the first here to admit that I do not profess to know everything, unlike others here who seem to have this Polish tendency of being know alls. And if they are not Polish, then they certainly are not any better.

Anyway, it would be all to easy just not to log on here again, or to use another name, but I too like to amuse myself, so sorry guys............ I will still be around and if it,s just mud you want to throw around, carry on. I,m quite good at that game too.

Today it,s me, tomorrow it might be you.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 3, 10, 20:32 #216

THE HITMAN:

then you chose to ridicule and discredit that person.

Well, the sound makes the music or as we in Germany say: "Wie es in den Wald reinruft to schallt es heraus!"

You started this p*issing contest with calling people you know sh*it about generally "cowards and traitors", so don't cry if we take our time with you too!

Did you had asked or had been open for discussion we could have had a meaningful even informative discussion, but as it is you know all about it already! Right? Riiiiiiiiiight!

THE HITMAN	Mar 3, 10, 21:24 #217
Bratwurst Boy: we could have had a meaningful even informative discussion, Judging by your pathetic comments, I don,t think so. Bratwurst Boy: pissing Bratwurst Boy: shit About your level of intellect.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 21:27 #218
THE HITMAN: About your level of intellect. At least I have one! What about the questions in #206. Care to show us your "intelligence"???

♂

Edited by: Morsczi_Purtk Mar 3, 10, 21:32 #219

Bratwurst Boy...
When I was talking about that most Kashubs that were in the Wehrmacht were "forced" I've meant it like this:
After they had become German citizen, they waited until they became their "Einberufung" to the Wehrmacht. Because they knew it would have consequences for them if they would try to escape somewhere, they went to the Wehrbezirkskommando on the next day and were recruited later. What I had on my mind was that they did not came to the Wehrmacht first, they waited until the Wehrmacht came to them :).

Mòrsczi Púrtk

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 21:42 #220
I understand. What I meant was that there was not much difference between the Kashubs in Danzig or boys in Berlin or Hamburg...the punishments for draft dodging was brutal for all of them.

♂

Mar 3, 10, 21:52 #221

THE HITMAN:

Well you surprise me Torq, now you,re a psychologist.

It doesn't take a psychologist to see that you are insecure in your own self-worth, so you like to history and genealogy to to derive some sense of self and self-worth from your ancestors who you didn't know. Psychology? Barely. Your inferiority complex is very common and easily recognisable, as it is with many who allow ancestry to influence their self-perception and opinions.

♂

Mar 3, 10, 22:43 #222

Bratwurst Boy

Butt, Morsczi_Purtk is right on this issue. During WW2 Polish lands were divided into so called "General Government" which was occupation administration and the rest (Upper Silesia, Pommerania and other western/northern lands) which were directly annexed into the 3rd Reich. There were much different policies toward the Poles in these two areas. In GG people weren't actively encouraged to sign Volksliste, in Warsaw the people who did It were below 1%, usually those with real German roots and in the lands annexed into the Reich often over 30% because there was a strong preussure put on the people with any "German connection" (often only "Aryan look" or any acestors serving in the German army and as most of those land were under German occupation before WW1, It was of course very common) to do that, people living there were going to be either Germanized or expelled, those who refused to sign volsliste at best were being deported to the GG with one suitcase in hand, often they were sent into slave labor or concentration camps. Silesians and Kashubians were another case, most of them were automatically classified as volksdeutschers. Conditions were much different in the GG and the annexed lands and so was the attitude of the local population toward the volksliste, in GG anyone signing It was considerated a traitor and in many cases executed for that thing alone and the people living in the annexed lands were encouraged to sign the list as a way to save their lives even by some members of the Polish government in excile. "Volksdeutschers" were of course drafted into the Wehrmacht... desserters were the main source of man power for the Polish forces in the west, 1/3 of the airborn brigade, which took part in the "Market Garden" operation were ex-Wehrmacht soldiers and those people were dropped behind the enemy lines, so much for volunteers....

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Mar 3, 10, 22:50 #223
Grzegorz_: ...and as most of those land were under German occupation before WW1 Like it or not - these lands were not under occupation, they were part of the German Empire... ;)

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Edited by: Grzegorz_ Mar 3, 10, 22:55 #224
TheOther: they were part of Germany Techniaclly yes but against the will of majority living there, so practically under occupation...

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 3, 10, 23:01 #225

Grzegorz_:

Techniaclly yes but against the will of majority living there, so practically under occupation...

Majority?

Silesia for example had a german majority of 75 percent (census of 1905)!
They for sure felt under polish occupation after 1919...

Not many of them still there, right? Tell them about polonization and expellation!
And those who stayed are so messed up with their own heritage during decades of polish anti-germanism they don't know anylonger who they are, what their heritage is...having had no other choice than being more polish than the Poles to survive after war and communist Poland!
Or they just left for Germany....

It will take alot more time to entwine that special mess...we are just starting....at least we are talking about that taboo now!

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 3, 10, 23:04 #226

TheOther:

these lands were not under occupation

But of course they were. Polish lands which were directly annexed into the 3rd Reich
after September 1939 were under occupation for well over 100 years (since the partitions
of Poland until 1918.)

Bratwurst Boy:

Tell them about polonization and expellation!

Yeah, yeah. Germans were slaughtering us by millions, our elites, women
and children - put them into gas chambers, treated as sub-humans and what
did we do? Polonized some of the Germans and made the rest leave - oh, my
God, what a terrible revenge we took! Those bloodthirsty Poles! *rolls eyes*

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 3, 10, 23:14 #227
Well, Poles responded to some nice germanization and a tiny bit of re-settling also not very well...rolls eyes even more This slaughtering and gas chambering was a follow up of all this ethnical and nationalistic mess in central Europe after WWI if I dare to remind the audience, not the reason...

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 3, 10, 23:17 #228

Nice germanization and a tiny bit of re-settling! *rolls eyes so much that they're practically upside down*

Bratwurst Boy:

This slaughtering and gas chambering was a follow up of all this ethnical and nationalistic mess in central Europe after WWI if I dare to remind the audience, not the reason...

Oh, yes, that's right - you didn't like the Treaty of Versailles so you had right to murder
millions of people, build concentration camps and gas chambers. How could I forget,
it was the Treaty of Versailles that turned you into inhumane murdering beasts, killing
women and children. Thanks for explaining that, BB.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 3, 10, 23:18 #229

*eye plops*

*goes searching for eye*

Torq:

you didn't like the Treaty of Versailles so you had right to murder
millions of people, build concentration camps and gas chambers. How could I forget,
it was the Treaty of Versailles that turned you into inhumane murdering beasts, killing
women and children.

In short, yes!

The Nazis came to power with the promise to righten again what nearly all Germans (and foreigners) believed to be a sham (Kosovo anybody? Silesian uprisings anybody?) which had to be taken back again urgently!!!

But Germany wasn't some backward country but the most industrialized, technologically advanced country of that time. So he was as bad as he was because he could!
Ethnic wars are the worst...Ruanda, Balkan...

Well...this racist, subhuman spin was new....

♂

Edited by: TheOther Mar 3, 10, 23:38 #230

Torq:

...were under occupation for well over 100 years

No, officially they were not because Poland didn't exist as a state. These lands were Russian, Austro-Hungarian and German territories. Accepted all around the world at that time with the exception of the Ottoman Empire, Denmark and Spain, I believe - right?. It's a technicality, I know, but you cannot change historical facts. To use the term 'occupation' is just a political tool to show continuity between the pre-partition Poland and the country that reemerged after WW1, IMHO.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 3, 10, 23:40 #231

Bratwurst Boy:

In short, yes!

The Nazis came to power with the promise to righten again what nearly all Germans (and foreigners) believed to be a sham (Kosovo anybody? Silesian uprisings anybody?) which had to be taken back again urgently!!! (...) Well...this racist, subhuman spin was new...

That's what I mean.

Look - I can perfectly comprehend that you weren't happy with the Treaty of Versailles,
the new borders and all that - I have no problem understanding that. So, you started the
war, invaded Poland, took 'your' lands back and occupied the rest of the country. As much
as I don't like it - it's, to some extent, understandable.

What I cannot understand and what, in my opinion (and in the opinion of any sane man),
can never be justified by any treaty or border changes, is the racist contempt and murderous
rage that Germans displayed on occupied Polish territories. The Treaty of Versailles
NEITHER justifies NOR explains that.

TheOther:

These lands were Russian, Austro-Hungarian and German territories. Accepted all around the world at that time with the exception of the Ottoman Empire, Denmark and Spain, I believe - right?

Well, forgive me if I look at history from the Polish point of view (and Ottoman, Spanish
and Danish in that case) and not from that of the rest of the world ;)

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 23:46 #232
Torq: Well, forgive me You are excused, although ... you're definitely indoctrinated ... ;)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Mar 3, 10, 23:47 #233
TheOther: you're definitely indoctrinated ... ;) yes, but I'm properly indoctrinated and proud of it ... ;)

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 23:48 #234
Ha ha ha

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 3, 10, 23:49 #235

Torq:

What I cannot understand and what, in my opinion (and in the opinion of any sane man),
can never be justified by any treaty or border changes is the racist contempt and murderous
rage that Germans displayed on occupied Polish territories. The Treaty of Versailles
NEITHER justifies NOR explains that.

You know...I learned much about this in the last years since it became my hobby.
I firmly believe now that the Nazis didn't care one yota for the lost (to us lost that is) territories or the people. It was to them just a welcomed means to gather votes and support.

Hitler would had sold Danzig to Poland for a treaty, he never cared for the Danziger. For them the idea of conquest, domination was much more important than the grievances of the Germans.

As I see it now, the Nazis USED the injustices of the Treaty of Versailles to come to power and to plummet Europe into the abyss.
I've read a very interesting analysis about the much vaunted Nazi-economy...it was an eye opener. All what the Nazis in Germany "achieved" wasn't because of superior leading it was because they were permanently at war and could import all that stuff, not to mention cheap laborers. The Nazi state could never had made any peace, they wouldn't had survived peace. They needed WAR!

But the point is, at that time nobody could possible know it. Most, if not all, believed in the beginning it was for a good, justified end...and as the war did go on....and more hellish by the day...there were not much options left.

PS: I came to translate the "Blitzkrieg" with "Wutkrieg", it wasn't only a new military tactic which let Germans overran so many countries so quickly..there was alot of rage behind it!
The whole first part of WWII was one big vengeance for Germans, and yes, they were brutal.
(So was the vengeance on the Germans as the table turned)

But then, it was a race war in the East...and even today once peaceful neighbours kill each other for just belonging to the "wrong" race, the wrong ethnie, the wrong tribe...(Balkan, Africa)
In this regard WWII wasn't something special...

As you can see from the Western front, if the war is "just a war", not seen as a live and death struggle between deadly enemies, different races, it stayed fairly civil.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 4, 10, 00:01 #236

That the Nazis used the Treaty and the feeling of injustice in people to come to power
is quite obvious. The fact that German nation fell for their lies is what bothers me.

*sighs*

BB:

The whole first part of WWII was one big vengeance for Germans, and yes, they were brutal.
(So was the vengeance on the Germans as the table turned)

Don't even compare what Germans did to Poles to the polonization and expelling
of Germans after the war, BB. Two completely different things and you know it.

Anyways - gotta catch some z's. I have to get up really early for work tomorrow. Goodnight, lads.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 4, 10, 00:02 #237
Torq: The fact that German nation fell for their lies is what bothers me. sighs Just imagine a nation of Crowies! ;) 'night :)

♂

Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 4, 10, 00:04 #238

Bratwurst Boy:

..there were not much options left.

Allmost the same with the Romn Empire, had to be at war all the time I remember that the military took up 50% or more of the economy.

Torq:

What I cannot understand and what, in my opinion (and in the opinion of any sane man),
can never be justified by any treaty or border changes, is the racist contempt and murderous
rage that Germans displayed on occupied Polish territories. The Treaty of Versailles
NEITHER justifies NOR explains that.

Not a long time ago I found out that the Soviet NKVD came with a proposal of killing/deleting Polish elite (The Germans/Nazi's planned on colaboration first for instance guards at Piłsudski's tomb, release of Polish soldiers) it wasn't until 1941 that the Nazi's starting murdering Jews on a large scale, mostly because they couldn't get them to Madagascar.

One sure doesn't know where it all started, but we all know how it ended :/

Torq:

yes, but I'm properly indoctrinated and proud of it ... ;)

Torq we all are :)

Bratwurst Boy:

Just imagine a nation of Crowies! ;)

lol

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