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What certificate is this?


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escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 12:01    #1
Hi all... I came across this certificate - either it's a nugget of gold in my Polish roots search, or a clump of fools gold :-)

Does anyone know what kind of certificate it is? I'm guessing it's some sort of baptism thing.

Can anyone translate the information upon it?

Any help will be greatly appreciated...

thanks

steve

certificate
certificate
frdThreads: 8
Posts: 1,956
Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 12:26    #2
you can't expect anyone to try and translate something of such low quality.. make a picture with a bigger resolution than this : o
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 12:34    #3
Hi Frd... I know what you mean. The forums say only files of 100K can be uploaded. What I'll do is put a higher definition version on the web and link to it. Then, hopefully people will be kind enough to click through.

I'll have to do that tonight at home.

Thanks for your input...

steve
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: McCoy  Jan 11, 10, 12:36    #4
its an extract from a birth certificate from the greek catholic church for ivan michalchuk. probably born in Slawiniec in north-east part of PL on 8 ....? 1918
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 12:47    #5
Wow! Then it might really be gold! Can you glean anything about where and when or anything else of interest? Or do we need the higher resolution version as indicated above?

Thanks for your help

steve
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 11, 10, 12:47    #6
The name implies Russian or Ukrainian roots rather than Polish. Also, since it's in Russian at the very least it's possibly from a Russian occupied area of Poland. It's hard to read, what year does it show?

Then again, many, many generations of rape and pillage brought by the tsarist Russian secret police to be followed by the Communist Soviet (primarily Russian) NKVD/KGB "encouraged" many Poles (and other nationalities) to change their names to more Russian sounding names - the infamous Russification. To be fair, the Germans and the Austrians weren't that much better and had their own share of forced Germanisation of occupied territories.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 12:51    #7
Yes, and if he blows it up, we can tell him the name of the town and parents' names.
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: McCoy  Jan 11, 10, 12:54    #8
escapee3:
do we need the higher resolution version as indicated above?

no we dont. i downoaded it on my computer. when i enlarge the photo its clear enough. the problem is with reading the handwriting. and my russian isnt that good
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 13:03    #9
Thanks again...

We believe he was born in Tarnowce, near Przemyśl, right on the Ukrainian border in Feb 1918. The name he used was Michalczyk. Having that confirmed and learning parents' names if they can be deciphered etc means I'll be drunk for a week! :-)

steve
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: McCoy  Jan 11, 10, 13:04    #10
McCoy:
probably born in Slawiniec in north-east part of PL on 8 ....? 1918

my mistake. born in ( probably) Tyszowce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyszowce and its east ( not north east ) of Poland. Slawiniec is the pleace when they got the certificate (01.07.1947)

his father Kostja ( Konstanty - Constantine ) was born in 1887
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 13:17    #11
You guys are the best! Thank you so much...

Is there any mention of his mother?

steve
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 11, 10, 13:19    #12
By the way, if this birth certificate is indeed from 1918 AND from a Polish teritory then it's pretty special in itself.

In 1795 Poland disappeared from the world map as an independent country. Starting in 1772 the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania (the two countries were united at one point) was partitioned (three separate times) between Russia, Prussia and the Austrian-Hungerian empire. In 1795 the country finally seized to exist - until 1918 that is!

Hope I didn't mess up the Polish history too much...

So this birth certificate could possibly be one of the last ones from an occupied area of Poland.
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: McCoy  Jan 11, 10, 13:21    #13
his mothers last name was Biel born 188?

ivan michalchuk

hmmm... his name could be jan michalczyk as well. russians read y as u so they could left polish y in russian transcription to read it u and made the name more russian-like
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: escapee3  Jan 11, 10, 18:50    #14
Fascinating responses all of them - thank you all so much.

Here's the bigger file on my website if anyone would like to view it as a bigger picture.

http://www.sk.pirie.btinternet.co.uk/c1.jpg

It's about 450K, so if you have a slow connection it might take some time!

I think apart from obviously assisting me it's worth looking at to see just what one of these things actually looks like. Hopefully that will inspire those of us searching here to keep going...

Again, thanks for the help, and if anybody can add anything else that will be great.

steve

Edit: Oddly enough, if I click the link directly the picture is small, but when I copy and paste the URL into the URL window the picture is large. Something to do with the forums set up perhaps?
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 19:09    #15
skysoulmate:
By the way, if this birth certificate is indeed from 1918 AND from a Polish teritory then it's pretty special in itself.

In 1795 Poland disappeared from the world map as an independent country. Starting in 1772 the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania (the two countries were united at one point) was partitioned (three separate times) between Russia, Prussia and the Austrian-Hungerian empire. In 1795 the country finally seized to exist - until 1918 that is!

I'm definitely going to include that information in the 'Polish roots project', so thank you.
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,727
Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 10, 19:35    #16
escapee3:
I'm definitely going to include that information in the 'Polish roots project'

This might interest you:

Poland Borders 990 - 2008
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 12, 10, 07:01    #17
escapee3:
I'm definitely going to include that information in the 'Polish roots project', so thank you.

You're welcome. Very few countries have "re-appeared" after being "extinct" for several generations.

I find this certificate very interesting because it pertains to a person who was born in 1918 - the year Poland became an independent state again but also because the certificate was produced in 1944 in Russian meaning the territory was under the Russian occupation once again (probably after the Germans had been pushed back). The certificate symbolizes the history of Poland...
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 10, 09:46    #18
skysoulmate:
I find this certificate very interesting because it pertains to a person who was born in 1918 - the year Poland became an independent state again but also because the certificate was produced in 1944 in Russian meaning the territory was under the Russian occupation once again (probably after the Germans had been pushed back). The certificate symbolizes the history of Poland...

I shall take care of it. Possibly, seeing as it sounds of historical value, it might find its way into a Polish museum at some point. I did read not so long back that the German/Russian front was drawn up along the run of the river at Przemyśl, so it doesn't surprise me the territory was somewhat fluid (in fact, I found my father-in-law's UK registration document along with the certificate, and in that he describes his nationality as 'uncertain'. I assumed this was because he was largely illiterate, but now I'm wondering if it was more a case of the borders changing around him and as you say there not in effect being a Poland he could belong to until 1918). This is really fascinating stuff to me. I've not played the U-tube above yet, but I'll do so and try to research events more.

The project is a surprise birthday present for my wife, and in it I want to give her more than a family tree but also a 'feel' for what her family grew up with. Her father, when he was alive, would say nothing of his upbringing (a trait I've heard many Polish/English descendants bemoan). Possibly it's testament to the horrors and hardships endured. The wife's UK side is hard enough, but the Polish side is taking a good deal more work. The culmination will be a surprise trip to Poland in the autumn. So, a good day yesterday - what I thought might be of a little information has turned out to be a major find.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 12, 10, 11:41    #19
Well, the certificate is of a great historical value to you and to your family. However, there've been milions and millions of displaced and stateless Poles throughout many generations.

To put things in perspective - I once read that some 15% of Americans claim a German heritage. Then I read that more 90% of those "Germans" were actually people from many occupied territories, or refugees who ended up in Germany and then continued on to America as "Germans" since their home countries didn't "exist" or were under occupation. The very same situation existed on the eastern border. Many cities, regions and whole countries "changed hands" several times.

The birth certificate you have is a symbol of those times and it also explains why today Poland is one of the most pro-American nations in Europe. For some very valid reasons the Polish government and the Polish population at large does not trust their neighbors to the West and to the East and looks for assurances from America instead.

If you have any specific questions keep posting them here or use the PM function. Your wife will like your gift, you can count on it. :)
krysiaThreads: 26
Posts: 3,604
Joined: Aug 10, 06 ♀ 		 Jan 12, 10, 18:13    #20
escapee3:
Is there any mention of his mother?

Looks like it says: syn(son) Kacpra Michalczika 1887 and Kiziuni Belrod 1888.
So looks like the father's name is Kacper and mother Kiziunia
escapee3Threads: 15
Posts: 78
Joined: Oct 22, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 10, 19:01    #21
krysia:
Looks like it says: syn(son) Kacpra Michalczika 1887 and Kiziuni Belrod 1888.
So looks like the father's name is Kacper and mother Kiziunia

That's interesting, so thanks for that. Several posts above, McCoy says:

McCoy:
his father Kostja ( Konstanty - Constantine ) was born in 1887

And...

McCoy:
his mothers last name was Biel born 188?

I like Constantine from an off-the-cuff comment made to me by a family member recently suggesting Constantine or Konstantego as a possible name for the father. I'm not sure, though, if Konstantego is a real name even.

The name of mother I'd no idea whatsoever (and now I've two names :-)

Thanks so much for looking at this....

Does anyone else have ideas about the mother's names?

cheers

steve
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 10, 19:18    #22
escapee3:
That's interesting

krysia is wrong cause she doesnt read it in cyrillic. Mothers last name is Biel not belrod. russian e means ie. and rod means born. was she born in 1988. i dont know. as you see last number is very unclear. father isnt kacper. its Kostja for 95 %. and mothers name isnt kniziunia.
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 986
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		 Jan 12, 10, 21:46    #23
I think the mother's name is Osinia (Osinja) Biel and the year of birth 1888.
Father is definitely Kostia (Konstanty), and Iwan was born on February 8th 1918.

I'm not sure, though, if Konstantego is a real name even.

It's a declined form of Konstanty (Constantine). In Polish "syn Konstantego" means son of Konstanty.
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: TheOther  Jan 12, 10, 23:22    #24
skysoulmate:
For some very valid reasons the Polish government and the Polish population at large does not trust their neighbors to the West and to the East

WW2 ended in 1945 and the USSR stopped bordering Poland in December 1991. There are no valid reasons whatsoever to be suspicious, except for being paranoid probably.

...and looks for assurances from America instead

Yep, which "assured" Poland by dumping the missile shield... :)

Then I read that more 90% of those "Germans" were actually people from many occupied territories

Such as? If an ethnic Pole was born in the German Empire, he was a German (citizen) and not a citizen of some non-existent state. Legally there were NO occupied territories, just three different nations - Russia, Austria-Hungary and the German Empire. Claiming something else is wishful thinking.
krysiaThreads: 26
Posts: 3,604
Joined: Aug 10, 06 ♀ 		 Jan 13, 10, 03:14    #25
McCoy:
krysia is wrong cause she doesnt read it in cyrillic. Mothers last name is Biel not belrod.

Your right. It is Biel.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 13, 10, 03:57    #26
WW2 ended in 1945 and the USSR stopped bordering Poland in December 1991. There are no valid reasons whatsoever to be suspicious, except for being paranoid probably.

One could argue WW2 ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union or at the very least with the countries of former Soviet block becoming free of the Soviet oppresion. USSR is gone but Poland is still bordering a part of Russia. You can call me paranoid and I'll call you an apeaser. In 25 years or so we'll see who was right. I hope it's you but history tells otherwise.

Yep, which "assured" Poland by dumping the missile shield... :)

Since you're such a friend of the peaceful Russia it should please you America now has a president who caves into the Russian demands?

Such as? If an ethnic Pole was born in the German Empire, he was a German (citizen) and not a citizen of some non-existent state. Legally there were NO occupied territories, just three different nations - Russia, Austria-Hungary and the German Empire. Claiming something else is wishful thinking.

That's probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read, and I've read some crazy stuff. When people are polled in the US about their backgrounds they look into each person's heritage, his/her identity, not what the passport said.

Yeah, you are right, people born in Warsaw identified themselves as Russians when Russia was in charge... Yeah, right. Is your name Quisling by any chance? If not, it should be. You're each occupying power's dream...

Let's go back to the subject of the birth certificate. We'll never agree anyways.
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: TheOther  Jan 13, 10, 04:44    #27
skysoulmate:
When people are polled in the US about their backgrounds they look into each person's heritage

You know the difference between ethnicity and citizenship, do you? The immigration officers at Ellis Island and elsewhere were NOT interested in your heritage or if you felt like an ethnic Pole. In the vast majority of cases they asked the immigrants in which country they were born. So yes, an ethnic Pole born in the German Empire was a German citizen. If you don't get this then you really need to stay away from this thread, as you do not understand the basic principles of genealogy.

skysoulmate:
Since you're such a friend of the peaceful Russia

Are you sure? Maybe it's just you who desperately wants to see Russia as an enemy of Poland? Are you a Reagan fan by any chance? ;)

skysoulmate:
people born in Warsaw identified themselves as Russians when Russia was in charge... Yeah, right

I didn't say that. An ethnic Pole born in the Russian Empire was a Russian citizen, even if he felt Polish. Citizenship/ethnicity ... see above.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 13, 10, 05:37    #28
First of all, after posting my reply I realized that I was pretty harsh and wanted to revise my reply but it was too late. So sorry about the name calling part.

"...You know the difference between ethnicity and citizenship, do you? The immigration officers at Ellis Island and elsewhere were NOT interested in your heritage or if you felt like an ethnic Pole. In the vast majority of cases they asked the immigrants in which country they were born. So yes, an ethnic Pole born in the German Empire was a German citizen. If you don't get this then you really need to stay away from this thread, as you do not understand the basic principles of genealogy..."

Yes, I do know the difference. Please see my original post though. I never claimed those numbers came from some kind official statistics collected on the Ellis Island. Instead those were simply "good-to-know" polls where people were asked "so, what is your heritage? Where did your family come from when they arrived in America some 200, 150, 100, etc. years ago?" Then someone took his time to look at some of those surveys and realized that a majority of those interviewed mentioned cities and regions in Germany that weren't really German areas per se but today people don't remember or are simply ignorant... They remembered their granny had some German papers way back when so surely they must be of a German heritage, right? You know, "we are Polanskis from Krakau region, Germany..." etc, etc. So are they really of a German heritage? You say potatoes...

"...Are you sure? Maybe it's just you who desperately wants to see Russia as an enemy of Poland? Are you a Reagan fan by any chance? ;)..."

Not really, I wish Russia (I'm talking government not people) was a true friend of Poland and other countries but I do not trust that regime... ...and yes, I'm a big fan of Ronald Reagan... I take it you prefered Gorby? ;)

"... I didn't say that. An ethnic Pole born in the Russian Empire was a Russian citizen, even if he felt Polish. Citizenship/ethnicity ... see above..."

Those polls were about "perceived heritage". In other words, "what is your heritage?" - not "what was your grandparents' citizenship?" Although many thought it was the same thing and I disagree with that premise. See above...

Enjoyed the discussion, time to move on...
caprice49Threads: 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Aug 5, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 13, 10, 10:04    #29
TheOther:
So yes, an ethnic Pole born in the German Empire was a German citizen

Only on paper. Poles considered themselves Polish even under the partitiion. Hadn't you heard: "Jeszcze Polska nie zgineła póki my żyjemy! " As long as we are alive Poland hasn't disappeared!!!
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 13, 10, 10:13    #30
But he wrote 'german citizen' not ethnic german. damn true that most Poles were aware of their polishness and thats why Poland still exists on the map of europe

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