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Jalowiecki coat of arms and title inheritance?

posts: 22

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May 14, 10, 17:35 #1

I have recently been trying to trace back my family history. My grandmother's maiden name is Jalowiecki and her father was apparently hrabia (which translates to count or earl in english). He had no sons and I think he was an only child. It's unlikely my grandfather held a title (they divorced shortly after the birth of their children if this changes anything). Am I correct in assuming hrabia cannot be passed down through a female member of the family? She has had one daughter and one son (who were alive when my grand-father passed away) but they hold the surname of their father and I'm unsure if my father could be considered a direct male descendant.

Does anyone know if the coat of arms h. Lodzia is able to be passed down through a female member of the family? I have been trying to research this and have come up with mixed responses including a site that stated the coat of arms can be passed through both the female and male lines. I have a copy of the coat of arms from my grandmother so it's not an issue trying to obtain one, I know it exists.

I'd really love to keep a family tradition going, especially with all the stories I've heard from my grandparents of their lives in Poland before they emigrated.

I'd appreciate any help or answers anyone is able to give me
Thanks

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	May 14, 10, 19:14 #2
JAŁOWIECKI: root-word jałowiec (juniper - the main flavor ingredient of gin). Someone migth have acquried this nickname because he lived in place overgrown with juniper or hailed from some village called Jałowiec. The Łodzia coat of arms accompanies the surname.

amczy1Threads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: May 14, 10 ♀	May 15, 10, 05:41 #3
Thank-you for that information, I didn't know the translation and find it quite interesting. I may eventually find the answer of where it came from (if it was a town) once I've managed to dig through the family history far enough.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	May 15, 10, 15:23 #4
Traditionally - the family crest was inherited from father to son only. Some purist still believe that this is how it shall be. But during the last 200 years some more relaxed views emerged. Personally, I believe that every family crest is much more than a picture. It's tradition, way of life, certain way of mind-set. More responsibility than privilege.

amczy1Threads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: May 14, 10 ♀	May 15, 10, 16:05 #5
I agree with you enkidu that it is much more than a picture. Do you have any ideas if it is somehow possible to retain hrabia and the coat of arms, and if so do you have any ideas how I could go about it? Is there any particular place that I may be able to get answers from? Thank-you for your comments

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May 15, 10, 16:24 #6

1) The "hrabia" title - in Old Poland was forbidden by law as idea in opposition to the ideas of equality and golden freedom on which the Rzeczpospolita was build. Therefore most of the hrabia titles in Poland were granted by the foreign monarch (mostly Habsburgs) but never officially recognised in Polish law. In short - If you are looking for a confirmation of the title - Poland is definitely not a place you shall start your research.

2) The last assembly of Polish Parliament (Sejm) that was rightfully able to confirm the one's right to the crest was in the 1793. Sorry.
But - there is a chance that some documents on your family are still preserved in the Polish National Archives.

3) Try: http://www.ornatowski.com/

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May 15, 10, 18:04 #7

Thank-you. I'll try and chase my family tree a bit further back to see if it offers any clues, I'm mainly going on stories passed down from my grandmother who grew up in Poland, and some documentation and based on where that branch of my family lived. I'm assuming the title came from either Lithuania or Russia as Poland doesn't seem to be an option so I'll try searching in either of those countries once I gather more information.

I'm planning on possibly visiting Poland at some stage in the future and will try and visit the National Archives to see what documentation they have. I read on another website that they house family histories and genealogies so it may prove to be quite a useful source, so long as I have someone with me that can read and understand Polish.

I really appreciate your comments and help :)

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May 15, 10, 23:04 #8

amczy1:

I really appreciate your comments and help :)

Well... You're welcome.

Keep in mind that there is no place called Polish National Archive. It's just a figure of speech. In reality - in every major city there is archive where documents regarding this particular region are stored. Good source of information may be find in the church's books. (But some of them were burned down along with the churches and priests, of course) Be prepared for a rather lengthy and time-consuming process.
Visiting Poland is a good idea (Just avoid larger cities - go for something real instead), but in your situation it may be worth to pay somebody who would do all the work for you. I heard that there are some companies and organisations who are specialized in the field of archive research.
Anyway - good luck.

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May 16, 10, 04:42 #9

enkidu:

there is no place called Polish National Archive

I didn't realise there wasn't a National Archive. I thought the Warsaw archive may hold some general information and I could branch out from there. I'll try and get a bit more information out of my grandparents and hopefully get an idea of where to start looking. My grandmother has already told me the name of the town she lived in and shown me it's location on a map so that should help. I know her family name came from the Lodzia clan so I may also be able to find some information around Lodz for much older ancestors once I've exhausted other options. It does seem like a better idea to hire an organisation to help me since I don't speak the language but I'll ask some of my relatives still living in Poland if they'd be willing to help me a little bit first- They've offered to have me stay with them and I'm considering taking a semester off university to visit next year. I'm just grateful it's only my grandmother's family I have to research so it should make searching easier, my mother's father has researched her side of the family and a relative of my father's has done my father's father's side, although I may need to trace back my great grandmother's family.

enkidu:

ome of them were burned down

Do you know why they were burned down or what type of churches they were? I hadn't realised any churches had been targeted, and that could definitely make my search harder. I believe I'm looking mainly at the Roman Catholic Church but when I move towards my grandmother's mother I know she was Russian so I'll probably have to move into Russia to start that search, but I also know she spent 2 years converting, in Poland, to Catholicism from Russian Orthodox, in order to marry my grandmother's father so I may find church records on that.

Is there any place in particular that may hold information on people involved in the Polish underground as well? I knew my great grandfather was thrown into jail a few times by the Germans during the occupation for helping to finance them, but I believe his factory was too important to them and wasn't running without him so they kept on letting him go until the last time where the accusation was a bit more serious and they fled from Poland. I only found out a few days ago that the other branch of my father's family (his mother's) was heavily involved in the Polish underground and one of her relatives was a leading figure and I'll have to ask her for his name before I can even start a basic search. I do know he was eventually killed by the Germans and his body was never found and I'd really like to find some answers and information on these individuals. Thanks.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	May 16, 10, 15:45 #10
Poland has two basic archives: Archiwum Akt Dawnych (Old Documents Archive) and Archiwum Akt Nowych (New Documents Archive).

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May 16, 10, 17:10 #11

Thanks for that, I've just done a basic search on them and it does seem as though I will be searching in the older archives, I don't think I need much information, if any after 1945.
The source I looked at says the main archives for the 'old' documents is in Warsaw and there is a list of places to search for 'new' documents. Would you consider Warsaw a good starting place? Do the state archives and church records hold any 'old'/ pre-1945 documents as far as you know?

Łodzia

Jul 30, 10, 11:38 #12

Hello,
It is very interesting what you write about your ancestors. I am researching my family genealogy since many year and until now I couldn't find any Jałowiecki h. Łodzia. It could be nice to have more specific data concerning your Jałowiecki ancestors. My collected documentation from many sources goes as far as beginning of XVIII century.
May be we can go a step further in research.
Regards,
Władysław Jałowiecki
wlady@wjarchitect.com

JuniperusThreads: - Posts: 4 Joined: Jul 30, 10 ♂	Aug 3, 10, 14:33 #13
Thread attached on merging: Genealogy, Ancestry I am searching any person with name Jalowiecki (Jałowiecki). The family of Jalowiecki had Lodzia as a coat of arms. Please contact me if you heard about any person with this name.

JuniperusThreads: - Posts: 4 Joined: Jul 30, 10 ♂	Sep 10, 10, 14:07 #14
I am searching any person with name Jalowiecki (Jałowiecki). The family of Jalowiecki had Lodzia as a coat of arms. Please contact me if you heard about any person with this name.

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Sep 10, 10, 14:22 #15

ŁODZIA C-O-A: Please bear in mind that heraldry is a rather whimsical pursuit, closer in spirit to astrology and alchemy than to astronomy and chemistry. There are many disputes amongst heraldists, and there are dicrepancies in the way different heraldic artists have depicted of various coats of arms. With that in mind, here is what I have been able to dig up about Łodzia. The heraldic experts of yesteryear disagreed as to the origin of the Łodzia (boat, ark, vessel) coat of arms. According to one legend, it traces back to Bohemia (now the Czech Republic), but others claim it went all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome. Some even connected it to the mythological Jason’s quest for the golden fleece or the seafaring expeditions of the ancient Slavs. Whatever the case, it depicts a plain wooden boat (variously shown as gold, yellow or brown) on a red shield. It is replicated in the crest (upper section), and the peacock feathers (in place of the more common white ostrich plumes) are said to indicate a somewhat upscale gentry.
Łodzia is shared by 163 Polish noble families from Babolicki to Żytowiecki

JuniperusThreads: - Posts: 4 Joined: Jul 30, 10 ♂	Oct 22, 10, 18:03 #16
There are probably no living descendants of Jałowiecki family having some claims to Łodzia coat of arms, as far as I know. I would be very surprised to find them.

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Oct 24, 10, 13:42 #17

Why do you looking for living descendants of Jałowiecki family having some claims to Łodzia coat of arms?
Do you want to trace your familly history or confirm that your grandfather was hrabia who lived in great castle? Most of the family history is sometimes exaggerated.
Maiden name of my cousin is also Jaowiecki. She found a lot of informations about her branch of Jałowiecki family from 18th century.

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Oct 24, 10, 16:07 #18

I think the farest you can go is to use your coat of arm as a middle name. you go to your countrys court or something like that and ask for a name change.

So lets say your name is Max. Then you could change it to Max Lodzia Jałowiecki.

This is how most of the poles that were szlachta before ww2 are doing , since after ww2 when the Commies took over they abbolished all the inheritance rights the szlachta used to have.

But to be accepted among the other szlachta families in Poland you need to have certain noblilty documents that all of them that were "worthy" rich enough gained during the 18th century by the foregin courts that ruled Poland at that time.

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Oct 24, 10, 19:14 #19

David_18:

So lets say your name is Max. Then you could change it to Max Lodzia Jałowiecki.

This is how most of the poles that were szlachta before ww2 are doing , since after ww2 when the Commies took over they abbolished all the inheritance rights the szlachta used to have.

bollocks

David_18:

But to be accepted among the other szlachta families in Poland you need to have certain noblilty documents that all of them that were "worthy" rich enough gained during the 18th century by the foregin courts that ruled Poland at that time.

again.

I can explain my statement if anyone is interested in the question of coats of arms, szlachta, etc. But I feel it's quite pointless.

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Edited by: David_18 Oct 24, 10, 22:36 #20

enkidu:

bollocks

yea? So how do people do nowadays? Do they go to the knight house and ask for permission to use their coat of arms ? I don't think so.

enkidu:

I can explain my statement if anyone is interested in the question of coats of arms, szlachta

Explain what? Only way to use your coat of arm is to put it as a middle name. No way that the Polish goverment will grant you any kind of papers that you are a noble.

I know plenty of poles that put their Clan name as a middle name.

If some of the geedy ones that bribed the foreign courts 200 years ago to gain a title want to regain it today, i think they need to tavel to those countries and maybe if they ae lucky they will regain it.

♂

Oct 25, 10, 01:40 #21

David_18:

Explain what? Only way to use your coat of arm is to put it as a middle name. No way that the Polish goverment will grant you any kind of papers that you are a noble.

The last Sejm (National Assembly) that can confirm or deny the one's right to bear the coat of arm took place in the Anno Domini 1793. Current Polish government has no right (or interest) to do so.

David_18:

I know plenty of poles that put their Clan name as a middle name.

Peasants. That's what they are. No more and no less.

The real szlachta has got no urge to brag about their coat of arms. They didn't put it as a middle name or displayed it above the fireplace.
They understood that being part of the szlachta is an obligation and a duty more than a privilege. They understood that they have to prove themselves worthy. You certainly don't know a "middle name" of Józef Piłsudski, do you?

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Dec 7, 11, 12:50 #22

What a surprise! If your cousin has a really documents stretching to XVIII cent., I would be very happy to exchange my search results of Jałowiecki h. Łodzia.
I am straight descendant of Jerzy Felicjan Jałowiecki h. Łodzia, if you know this person from Boniecki's "Herbarz Polski".
There were no such titles as hrabia in my family and I do not pretend to bare the titles. No castles too! Sorry!
I am searching common ancestors of this very rare family.

mrozenbe:

family ancestors.

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