Jewish Roots of Poland

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 20:20 #31
Bratwurst Boy: Well...it goes both ways jonni. Who do you think dilutes it's genepool more? The overwhelming majority or a tiny minority??? Who dilutes its genepool more? That's obvious, the group with less strict rules about who they can marry. :-) Don't you agree?

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 20:23 #32

jonni:

Don't you agree?

Where is your logic jonni?
You spoke of adultery...breaking of rules of the society...yes it happened. But as you say it it sounds as if only the christians are left with the aftermath, not the Jews...that is just not logical..always both parts "dilute" their gene pool (if they make kids that is).

And the law still stands, a tiny minority suffers much more from diluting of their genes than the majority.

♂

Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 20:37 #33

Adultery happens - rules of society or not. As old as the Old Testament. But does a cuckoo in the nest happen as frequently as a child is born to a couple? I would say far less often.

And your

always both parts "dilute" their gene pool

is plain untrue and largely meaningless. The man walks away, the woman brings the child up. His culture isn't much affected (though the point is getting close to memetics). The family is affected. But this is only blood, not culture.

The Jews of Europe with their tight marriage rules and matrilinial tradition, is proved beyond any shadow of doubt by DNA tests to be a group descended from the ancient middle-east. The DNA influence from outside is small. Important to them. I would say that beliefs, folk history and values matter much more than DNA.

For the European gentiles, with DNA from here, there and everywhere, that isn't so clear.

You use the word

dilute

You use it more than once. 'Dilute' means 'to weaken'. Do you think mixing DNA weakens something and therefore 'racial purity' strengthens it?

You wouldn't be the first person in the history of your country to think that.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 20:46 #34

jonni:

The man walks away, the woman brings the child up.

But the child has the genetic heritage of both, it is not fully jewish. If it grows up as Pole it will never be part of the jewish roots of Poland.

jonni:

The DNA influence from outside is small. Important to them.

Fully agree, all historians say similiar.
That's why it was possible for Jews across Europe to NOT have any significant impact on the genetic pool of their host countries. As I say again - DNA influence goes BOTH ways!

It is really a curious way of thinking to believe intermingling of Jews with the native people has only consequences for the non-jews! ;)

jonni:

For the European gentiles, with DNA from here, there and everywhere, that isn't so clear.

There is not much difference in the first place as there are only 3 big tribes (Celtics, Germanics and Slavs) in the first place.
Celtics and Germanics intermingled and mixed for millennia, the same there where Germanics and Slavs meet and mix - but all are european natives, Jews were not!...

jonni:

'Dilute' means 'to weaken'. Do you think mixing DNA weakens something and therefore 'racial purity' strengthens it?

I can use the word "mixing" instead if you like this one better?

♂

Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 20:52 #35

Bratwurst Boy:

has the genetic heritage of both, it is not fully jewish

Indeed. In fact, according to Jewish tradition and religion, not Jewish at all.

Heritage if anything, is about culture - which adapts and changes according to all influences it meets.

In Polish shops, they sell challah bread, chalva etc. Traditional music here often uses Jewish melodies. There are words in the language from Yiddish. Many great (and less great) Polish artists, writers, poets, thinkers, etc were Jewish.

These are the Jewish roots of Poland. Not some inherited trait from generations back.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 20:54 #36

jonni:

These are the Jewish roots of Poland.

Maybe we should redefine the meaning of the word "root"???

Germany too has alot of kebab shops and turkish culture...doesn't mean german culture has turkish "roots"! ;)

jonni:

There are words in the language from Yiddish.

PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language

Yiddish (ייִדיש yidish or אידיש idish, literally "Jewish") is a non-territorial High German language of Jewish origin, ...
The language originated in the Ashkenazi culture that developed from about the 10th century in the Rhineland...

Belonging to the roots of Poland? Don't think so....;)

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 20:57 #37
Bratwurst Boy: doesn't mean german culture has turkish "roots"! ;) But it does. In the future, some Turkish/German person's family tree will show "roots" in Germany.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:00 #38
ShawnH: But it does. In the future, some Turkish/German person's family tree will show "roots" in Germany. And for those roots coming out of Germany it would even be true! :)

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:04 #39
Bratwurst Boy: Yiddish (ייִדיש yidish or אידיש idish, literally "Jewish") is a non-territorial High German language of Jewish origin, ... Belonging to the roots of Poland? Don't think so....;) Some of the greatest writers in the Polish language, before the Second World War, were Jewish Poles.

♂

Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 21:05 #40

Bratwurst Boy:

Germany too has alot of kebab shops and turkish culture...doesn't mean german culture has turkish "roots"! ;)

Give it a generation. Doner kebabs are a culinary innovation of Germany. One day they'll be part of Germany's cultural roots just as choucroute (of Polish origin) is part of France's and rijkstafel is part of Holland's.

Bratwurst Boy:

Belonging to the roots of Poland? Don't think so....;)

Either your English isn't good enough to understand the post, or you have more basic problems with general understanding. I said there are words in the Polish language from Yiddish. Check up the derivation of some Polish words, like kibiców, bachor, fajny (according to some) łajdak, itd.

Though there are plenty of words in Yiddish that came into the language from Polish too :-))

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 21:10 #41

jonni:

I said there are words in the Polish language from Yiddish.

Okay...let me see if I get that right:

Some words IMPORTED from another country and used by an isolated minority found their way into the polish language somehow count in your world as "having jewish roots in Poland"???

You've got to be kidding!

jonni:

Doner kebabs are a culinary innovation of Germany. One day they'll be part of Germany's cultural roots

It is already commonplace and even yummy but I don't know anyone who would call THAT german culture (compared to the currywurst or the Bratwurst for example).

The same with equally popular chinese food or similiar...all very nice but Germans can normally differentiate very well between german culture and non-german culture...

If you have a problem with that....your problem, really! ;)

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Edited by: Rogalski Jan 2, 10, 21:19 #42
Bratwurst Boy: It is already commonplace and even yummy but I don't know anyone who would call THAT german culture (compared to the currywurst or the Bratwurst for example). No different than Chicken Tikka Massala, which was invented in the UK and is largely unknown in India. Very much a part of British culture now.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 21:23 #43

Rogalski:

Very much a part of British culture now.

Well...British isn't a nationality (they really suffer from their centuries as Empire)...but English would be. I doubt many English would call Chicken Tikkala Massala having english roots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_cuisine#Traditional_cuisine

Some people really seem to have problems with the defination of the word ROOTS! ;)

Alone the naming of "Tikkala Massala" or "Doner Kebab" should be a really big hint that they are nothing native/indigenous of either England or Germany!

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:25 #44
accept it, BBoy (yummy nick) , your German culture is slowly becoming more and more oriental. Your people feel atracted to it more than to Westenr things...see how many learn Turkish or Arabic. Back on topic, my friend Pawel told me that the majority of Poles haev Jewish blood to some extent. That might explain the big boobs in girls and the Polish intelligence.

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Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 21:26 #45

Bratwurst Boy:

Okay...let me see if I get that right:

Not quite, BB.

Bratwurst Boy:

Some words IMPORTED from another country

How about from the house next door?

Remember, the word 'nation'is about common culture, not DNA. Unless you pretend otherwise.

Bratwurst Boy:

used by an isolated minority

Łajdak? Fajny? Bachor? Used by an isolated minority?

Just which isolated minority do you mean?

Bratwurst Boy:

"having jewish roots in Poland"

Part of the Jewish roots in Polish culture. Read the post before letting your knee jerk.

Bratwurst Boy:

I don't know anyone who would call THAT german culture

Germans (of whatever ethnic background, but mostly the aboriginal ones) eating them on an evening out don't feel they're leaving their German comfort zone.

Bratwurst Boy:

compared to the currywurst

Curry, from the Tamil word khari, made with spices imported by newcomers.

Bratwurst Boy:

a problem with that....your problem

You and only you mentioned "a problem". I wonder why? Do you see cross-cultural influences as 'a problem'or an idisputable sociological fact?

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:26 #46
I didn't say it was traditional. But it's very much a staple of English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish cuisine (since you don't like the word 'British').

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 21:28 #47

BrutalButcher:

your German culture is slowly becoming more and more oriental.

As long as you don't say: "german culture has oriental roots" - fine! ;)

jonni:

Do you see cross-cultural influences as 'a problem'or an idisputable sociological fact?

It is against my logic calling something a root of something totally different...I like facts better...

Poland has no more jewish roots than Germany has - even if there has been many good times between Jews and Poles or Jews and Germans and many bad times.
Poland has polish roots and Germany has german roots!
That is all there is actually.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:29 #48
Bratwurst Boy: It is against my logic calling something a root of something totally different This sentence does not make any sense. At all.

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:30 #49
jonni: Łajdak? Fajny? Bachor? Not to forget muszugene ... very appropriate for the present thread :-)

king polkakamonThreads: 1 Posts: 1,018 Joined: Dec 30, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:31 #50
BrutalButcher: Your people feel atracted to it more than to Westenr things... Not at all.Germans despise Turks and Arabs absolutely.Turks live in ghettos in Germany and are largely illiterate.I never saw a Turk working in public sector.They are largely marginalized.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 21:31 #51

jonni:

This sentence does not make any sense. At all.

Facts do neither for you, don't they!

jonni:

Germans (of whatever ethnic background, but mostly the aboriginal ones) eating them on an evening out don't feel they're leaving their German comfort zone.

Hell, what is your problem....eating it doesn't make it german!
Chinese food does also not become german just because it's eaten by Germans!

Has chinese food german roots next????
(I mean it is cooked in Germany..and served in german restaurants...oopsie...must be of german roots undoubtely!)

♂

Jan 2, 10, 21:34 #52

king polkakamon:

Not at all.Germans despise Turks and Arabs absolutely.Turks live in ghettos in Germany and are largely illiterate.I never saw a Turk working in public sector.They are largely marginalized.

Fail.

Germans in general don´t despise Turks or Arabs, actually most of them are open-minded, because their history/past has forced them to do so. I mean, check this out.

ELVIS LIVES!

This good-looking Turkish humanoid is a popular politician among the German youth and is member of a popular party. So much for discrimination not?

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Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 21:34 #53

bratwurstboy:

Facts do neither for you, don't they!

Doesn't take long, does it.

bratwurstboy:

Has chinese food german roots next?

The Chinese food served in Germany probably has.

The facts are this. That the culture of Central Europe is in part influenced by Jewish culture. This is part of the roots of modern German and Polish cultures.

It is proved by linguistic, artistic, philosophical, literary and culinary dialectic.

Ethnicity is about culture. Not DNA.

But you know this really.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 21:39 #54

jonni:

Ethnicity is about culture. Not DNA.

There is ethnicity AND there is culture!

Your DNA might point you to germanic, slavic or celtic ethnicity (often a mix) and you might grow up still with the culture of a Pole or a German or whatever.

Is Poland in it's majority formed culturally or ethnically by Jews?
Nope...hence no jewish roots of Poland.
Jewish cultural influence? Of course!

Were there influential Jews in Germany? For sure...has Germany jewish roots, nope here either.

Where there Jews who assimilated and left their jewish heritage behind to adapt to german or polish culture, you bet!

BrutalButcher:

This good-looking Turkish humanoid is a popular politician among the German youth and is member of a popular party. So much for discrimination not?

The typical exception who proves the rule.
You wouldn't bring him if he wouldn't be so rare in Germany and you know it! ;)

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090125-16987.html

Study says Turks are Germany's worst integrated immigrants

Published: 25 Jan 09 10:15 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090125-16987.html

A new study shows that immigrants of Turkish origin in Germany lag behind other migrant groups when it comes to education and jobs, news magazine Der Spiegel reported.

“For too long we’ve been used to the fact that we have primary school classes in which 80 percent of the children don’t understand German,” he said.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Jan 2, 10, 21:45 #55
Bratwurst Boy: Study says Turks are Germany's worst integrated immigrants If accepting the facts is "discriminating" well then Germany should "discriminate" more and more! It´s time for the truth!

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Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 21:45 #56

Bratwurst Boy:

There is ethnicity AND there is culture!

How would you delineate?

Bratwurst Boy:

Is Poland in it's majority formed culturally by Jews?

Who said that? Not me, not anyone else.

I think you'd better learn a new technique of discourse. Otherwise it just looks like you're making up points and then disagreeing with yourself.

Bratwurst Boy:

Where there Jews who assimilated and left their jewish heritage behind to adapt to german or polish culture, you bet!

I'm glad you're now agreeing with me. :-)

Remember it happens both ways. No culture can have contact with another on a significant scale and not absorb some values or traits.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 2, 10, 21:48 #57

jonni:

Who said that? Not me, not anyone else.

How come you always talk about "jewish roots of Poland" then all the time?

jonni:

I think you'd better learn a new technique of discourse. Otherwis it just looks like you're disagreeing with yourself.

ROFL:)
You don't even know the meaning of the word "roots" and think ethnicity is the same as culture.
Back to school with you! ;)

jonni:

Remember it happens both ways.

I said it from the beginning but somehow you think it is the polish majority who assimilates to the jewish minority if that happens and not the other way around...a curious belief to say it politely!

♂

Edited by: jonni Jan 2, 10, 21:57 #58

Bratwurst Boy:

How come you always talk about "jewish roots of Poland" then all the time?

Read the title of this thread. Go on, just read it. At the top of the page.

Bratwurst Boy:

ROFL:)You don't even know the meaning of the word "roots" and think ethnicity is the same as culture.Back to school with you! ;)

So go on then. What's your definition of roots? I can predict what you'll say, but lets hear it anyway.

Bratwurst Boy:

but somehow you think it is the polish majority who assimilates to the jewish minority if that happens and not the other way around...a curious belief to say it politely!

I'd would be very curious indeed if I had said it. You keep doing that! Putting words into people's mouth to try to back up your groundless argument.

For reference, the sentence I'm writing now is the first time I've used the word 'assimilates'.

Can you deny that Polish culture has absorbed elements from Jewish life? I've already given examples of cuisine and vocabulary - do you want more examples?

♀

Jan 2, 10, 22:09 #59

vetala:

It's kind of obvious that having one Jewish ancestor 300 years earlier won't change your genotype much.

That's so true. In fact, your great great great great grandmother has virtually nothing to do with who you are genetically. If your great great great grandmother was, let's say, a Turk, and she were the only Turk on either side of the family, it would be almost like having no Turkish ancestors whatsoever. You would look nothing like a Turk.

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09 ♀	Jan 2, 10, 22:13 #60
To cut the long story short: Mr. Kon comes to Mr. Żółtko (yolk), and asks: -Mr. Kon, do you know what's the difference between my wife and yours? -NO. -And I do. Oh wait, I will be labelled and Anti-Semite for telling szmoncesy.

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