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Looking for confirmation of Grandfather's citizenship...


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cafeguy99Threads: 1
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Joined: Jul 4, 11
 Jul 4, 11, 20:01    #1
Hello!

Hoping someone can help me in my ongoing search to ascertain my Polish roots. I'm trying to establish my Maternal Grandfather's Polish citizenship so I in turn can begin the process.

Here's what I have/what I know: I have a translation of a certificate of Birth and Baptism that states where and when he was born - October 2, 1902 in Skala Podolska, district of Borszczow. It lists his parents, the midwife, priest, etc. (and that they lived in house # 407) It's in English, but it does list which Parish records contain the original info. I know that Poland wasn't Poland until 1918, but......not sure when he left.

I don't know when he immigrated to the U.S., but I do have a Border Crossing manifest from when he crossed from Canada into the U.S. on a trip, in February of 1946. On this document, it lists that he was traveling on a Polish Passport No. 2803, valid until 4/21/1946. So.....I assume that if he had a Polish Passport, then he would have been a Polish citizen.

He became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1947, I have the original documents for that, and they list his previous nationality as 'Polish'. I'm quite certain that he did NOT relinquish his Polish citizenship.

Does anybody have any suggestions as to how I would go about finding proof/evidence/documentation of his Polish Passport? I'm starting from scratch here, and any addresses or contacts, or government offices in Poland that are appropriate would be appreciated.

Dzienkuje!

Michael Carleton

gumishuThreads: 17
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Edited by: gumishu  Jul 4, 11, 20:56    #2
cafeguy99:
Does anybody have any suggestions as to how I would go about finding proof/evidence/documentation of his Polish Passport? I'm starting from scratch here, and any addresses or contacts, or government offices in Poland that are appropriate would be appreciated.


My guess is your grandfather's documents were issued by the Polish government in exile in Britain - they must have kept some archives even though the government was no longer recognized by most countries post 1946 - I don't know if they transfered the archives to Poland after 1989 or they remain in Britain (London probably)

another thing is to look for (in case the British trace produces no results) is some birth cirtificate/record in parish records were your grandfather was born - if he was not born in Warsaw there is a big chance such old parish records still exist to date

hope it helps a little bit
cafeguy99Threads: 1
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 Jul 4, 11, 21:42    #3
Thanks! I'm pretty certain he had his passport issued sometime well before 1946, most likely in the 20's, so I'm not sure the records would be in Britain. When I contacted the Polish consulate in D.C., they replied that they don't have accurate records before the 1990's.......so, I was wondering if there was any offices in Poland that might still have records of applications, issuances, etc.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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Edited by: delphiandomine  Jul 4, 11, 23:05    #4
cafeguy99:
He became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1947, I have the original documents for that, and they list his previous nationality as 'Polish'. I'm quite certain that he did NOT relinquish his Polish citizenship.


He was stripped of the Polish citizenship on that date, according to the relevant citizenship law in place at that time. The law clearly states that obtaining a foreign citizenship will result in the Polish citizenship being lost.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is how it is. There are no exceptions - unless you appeal directly to the President to have his citizenship returned. However, it's not going to happen unless he's still alive AND there are exceptional circumstances.

Don't waste your time trying to fight it - you won't win. If you want Polish citizenship, you can come here and obtain legal residency for a period of time - and then apply for citizenship. It's rather easy for a US citizen - you just need to reside here for several years legally.
gumishuThreads: 17
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Edited by: gumishu  Jul 4, 11, 23:24    #5
delphiandomine:
He was stripped of the Polish citizenship on that date, according to the relevant citizenship law in place at that time. The law clearly states that obtaining a foreign citizenship will result in the Polish citizenship being lost.


I think you pretty much misinform here - a general rule of the citizenship law of Poland (at least now) is that an individual is a Polish citizen until he renounces his/her citizenship

the law does not clearly state that with obtaining foreing citizenship will result in losing Polish citizenship as far as I know

edit: but the rules were different in the past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_nationality_law - before 1951 if one acquired citizenship of another country he automatically lost his Polish citizenship - so you were actually right delphi
cafeguy99Threads: 1
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Joined: Jul 4, 11
 Jul 5, 11, 17:45    #6
Wondering if this is a valid argument: If your info about the 1951 law is correct, my grandfather certainly was Polish until he became naturalized, and that means when my Mother was born, in 1935, as I understand jus sanguis, she accquired Polish citizenship through her then polish citizen father.......

If he lost citizenship when he was naturalized, does that retroactively take it from my Mother? Because if it doesn't, I still have a shot...

Wondering....
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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Edited by: delphiandomine  Jul 5, 11, 19:00    #7
gumishu:
I think you pretty much misinform here - a general rule of the citizenship law of Poland (at least now) is that an individual is a Polish citizen until he renounces his/her citizenship


After 1962 - yes. But before that law came in, both the 1920 and 1951 laws clearly state that obtaining a foreign citizenship will result in the revocation of the Polish citizenship. Have a look yourself :)

gumishu:
edit: but the rules were different in the past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_nationality_law - before 1951 if one acquired citizenship of another country he automatically lost his Polish citizenship - so you were actually right delphi


Yeah - it's a common trap. :) It's actually right through to 1962 - there are plenty of provisions in the 1951 law that strip people of citizenship too - including the foreign citizenship.

cafeguy99:
Wondering if this is a valid argument: If your info about the 1951 law is correct, my grandfather certainly was Polish until he became naturalized, and that means when my Mother was born, in 1935, as I understand jus sanguis, she accquired Polish citizenship through her then polish citizen father.......


It depends - was your grandfather married to your grandmother at that point? Furthermore - when did your mother acquire American citizenship? And where was she born?

Sorry that this isn't the news that you want to hear, but as I said - Poland is relatively easy to acquire citizenship of as an American citizen.
cafeguy99Threads: 1
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Joined: Jul 4, 11
 Jul 5, 11, 20:08    #8
Yeah, my grandfather was married to my grandmother at the time my mother was born (they were married in 1931). My mother was born in the states, but like I said, at the time, my grandfather was still a polish citizen...

I'm assuming my mother was never registered as anything but a U.S. citizen, since she was born here. I'm just trying to reconcile/see if jus sanguis has any affect on this...
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Jul 5, 11, 20:25    #9
cafeguy99:
My mother was born in the states, but like I said, at the time, my grandfather was still a polish citizen...


Nothing to discuss then - she was automatically a US citizen at the time of birth (which would have stripped her of the Polish citizenship that she would have had - if born almost anywhere else). The United States practices the concept of "jus soli" rather than "jus sanguis".

As far as I can see -

The grandfather would have lost his Polish citizenship in 1947.
The mother would have lost her Polish citizenship at birth - yes, it would have passed to her, but the US citizenship would have automatically caused her to lose the Polish one.

As I recall, under the 1920 act - if the parents were married, then citizenship can only be passed from the father - the mother (for some truly bizzare reason) cannot pass her citizenship on if she's married.

One thing - I advise you not to pay any lawyers or "experts" (myself included...) in this case - it's pretty clear cut that you cannot claim Polish citizenship. Anyone promising you otherwise is frankly lying.



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