Margiewicza, Danilowicza, Andrulewicz, and Czarniecki; All of Polish Russia

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Sep 17, 09, 05:03 #1

I'm looking for any information that anyone might have on:

Alexjondra Aliza Andrulewicza Czarniecka; who later changed her name to Alexandria (also "Alexandra" and "Alexanderia") Alice Andrulewicz (also "Andrulevich") Czarn(i)ecki, and was the daughter of Antoni "Anthony" Andrulewicz of Katarzyna "Katherine" Margiewicza Czarniecki. Born on June 26, 1882; she immigrated from Suwałki to Ellis Island, settling in Sugar Notch, Pennsylvania. She died on April 6, 1936 and was buried on April 8, 1936.
Julian Jan "Felix" Czarniecki (December 24, 1876 - September 11, 1922), my great-great-granddad Czarnecki. Great-Great-Granddad was the son of Antoni and Katarzyna Danilowicza Czarniecka, and the Czarniecki Family Farm was in Lisko Orliscko, Poland, Russia (now Lipsko, Poland). He claims to have been born in Suwałki; but I believe that he was either born in Lisko and was talking chai kock when he claimed "Suwałki" on his naturalization petition, or that he was born there because his mom had been born or was perhaps visiting relatives (perhaps Andrulewiczes or Margiewiczes) there.
Antoni "Anthony J. Czarnecki, Sr." Czarniecki (October 24, 1904 - December 2, 1964) was my dad's paternal granddad and the only Czarniecki child born on the family farm. Once his parents converted themselves and him to Roman Catholicism to avoid the pogroms in Poland and Russia, and stayed Catholic to avoid persecution in America; his parents were basically done with the family back in Lisko and Suwałki, and he saw only pictures of them and whatever else a family friend named Bertha Wawrzyn would bring back when she went to visit family and friends.
Any of the other relatives that I have mentioned; and in case you need any more proof that they were Jewish, e-mail me: I have plenty more documents to show that they were Jewish, and that the pogroms did not provide a reasonable excuse to even pretend to convert in the eyes of Great-Granddad Czarnecki's grandparents.

Great-Great-Granddad Julian Jan "Julian John" Felix Czarniecki

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Sep 17, 09, 06:15 #2

Sep 17, 09, 12:21 - Thread attached on merging:
Looking To Connect With Some Relatives Back in Suwałki and Lipsko

I'm looking particularly to connect with anyone related to the following people:

Katarzyna Margiewicza Andrulewicza, who married Antoni Andrulewicz. Katarzyna "Katherine" and Antoni "Anthony" Andrulewicz were born in Polish Russia prior to 1882.
Alexjondra Aliza Andrulewicza Czarniecka (June 26, 1882 - April 6, 1936) , the daughter of the couple aformentioned. She was born in Suwałki, Polish Russia; and died in Sugar Notch, Pennsylvania.
Katarzyna Danilowicza Czarniecka, who married Antoni Czarniecki of Lisko Orliscko (Lipsko), Polish Russia. She was, as far as I understand, born in Suwałki.
Julian Jan "Julian John" Czarniecki (December 24, 1876 - September 11, 1922), the son of Antoni and Katarzyna Danilowicza Czarniecki, and son-in-law of Antoni and Katarzyna Margiewicza Andrulewicz. He claimed that he was born in Suwałki, but the Czarniecki Family Farm (and I don't know if it still is) in Lipsko.
Antoni "Anthony J. Czarnecki, Sr." Czarniecki (October 24, 1904 - December 2, 1964). He was born in Lipsko, immigrated with his mom to and joined his dad in the United States in 1908, and settled in Luzerne County in Pennsylvania. He had eight siblings: Regina (1909 - June 23, 1925), Alexandria Alice Czarnecki Dombroski (September 28, 1910 - November 1978), Stanislaw "Stanley" P. Czarnecki (November 11, 1911 - July 29, 1995), Jan "John" Felix Czarnecki (August 31, 1913 - May 15, 1995), Edward "Ed" L. Czarnecki (April 2, 1915 - May 1991), Joseph "Suzy" P. Czarnecki (March 15, 1917 - September 17, 1978), Bernard "Bernie" S. Czarnecki (May 15, 1920 - 1970s), and Cecelia "Celia" R. Czarnecki Guhanick (January 5, 1922 - April 6, 1994).

castellenator

Mar 7, 10, 12:40 #3

hiyah,

i am writing from warsaw. i saw your youtube video last night. gombrowicz wrote a play, "the memoirs of stefan czarniecki" which is not meant to be taken literally as history. he wrote in "a grotesque vein," he used aspects of history to make a commentary on modern politics.

..."Gombrowicz's oeuvre is routinely described by referring it to the grotesque. ... The motive of this artistic device must be sought in the author's entanglement in the horrors of twentieth-century history and his artistic preoccupation with avant-garde literature. ...The task of modern literature lies in undermining the cultural foundations of these apparently self-evident forms. This project has an essential bearing on the organization of meaning in Gombrowicz's texts. The story is broken up and put together according to certain (quasi) logical chains that show the underlying mutability of life..."

whether stefan czarniecki had a jewish wife i have been unable to find, cannot find anything about any wife at all! that is strange....

anyways, enough of that... :-) my family is of czarniecki and some of them came from lipa in galicia... you mentioned lipsko in galicia, i suppose they are not the same place, are they? just maybe your antoni czarniecki was a brother to my emilia czarniecka?? i would love to hear more if you have some documents connecting them.

but even if not exactly related then, still we would be probably related from an earlier generation. after all, there are not an infinite amount of czarnca ancestors! :-)

my family is rumored to be part jewish, though most of them go purple in the face at the mention of it, but after searching around i have found it to be true. my family also emigrated to pennsylvania. oh so many similarities.

by the way, the pronunciation is char.NYET.ski

did you know about adam mickiewicz having a jewish mother? Poles do not like to hear that... :-)

and his most important work, Dziady / Forefathers, is not only a story, but is a cabbalistic text too.

and most all of the people of poland who have the last name of majewski, they were converts to catholicism. more things that the poles do not like to hear.

if you have any info on czarniecki, please let me know. and i am not sure if i will be able to post on this site, so here is my address, just in case you can see it: gmail dot com.
--tera

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,056 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Mar 7, 10, 13:02 #4
castellenator: did you know about adam mickiewicz having a jewish mother? Poles do not like to hear that... :-) What's wrong in Mickiewicz having a Jewish mother? Which Polish people do not like to hear it? Being Polish, I can see nothing strange in it, and I'm also pleased to hear about it; although no more or less pleased than if he had a Polish, North American or Zimbabwean mother.

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Mar 7, 10, 16:14 #5

Ziemowit:

What's wrong in Mickiewicz having a Jewish mother? Which Polish people do not like to hear it? Being Polish, I can see nothing strange in it, and I'm also pleased to hear about it; although no more or less pleased than if he had a Polish, North American or Zimbabwean mother.

Allegedly, when one scholar tried to write indepth about this she was blocked by a certain sector of the Polish academia. I have references somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them out.

beata gThreads: - Posts: 5 Joined: Mar 27, 10 ♀	Mar 27, 10, 03:46 #6
Hi, I am looking for information about Julian Czarniecki, a composer who was born in Turka Nad Stryjem. He was my grandmother's father (Aniela Czarniecka). I don't know when he was born but he died during WWII...If you have any information, please write to: artveritas@hotmail.com Beata

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Edited by: vetala Mar 27, 10, 14:20 #7

Trevek: Allegedly, when one scholar tried to write indepth about this she was blocked by a certain sector of the Polish academia.

And this 'certain sector' is of course 'the Poles', hm?
I've never heard of anyone 'not liking to hear' about Mickiewicz's Jewish mother (who wasn't really Jewish BTW, although she might have had some Jewish ancestry)

castellenator: more things that the poles do not like to hear.

Oh, these dastardly Poles...

Lyzko	Mar 27, 10, 15:09 #8
,,,Pushkin's mom was of African descent, but I don't hear Russians complaining!!

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Edited by: Trevek Mar 27, 10, 15:46 #9
vetala: And this 'certain sector' is of course 'the Poles', hm? No, it was a certain sector within the Polish academia. It's somewhere in the intro to this book: Studies in Language, Literature and Cultural Mythology in Poland: Investigating "The Other"

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Edited by: beata g Mar 27, 10, 21:12 #10

I would like to make some comments about all of this “cultural exchange” which I encountered while looking for information about my great grandfather Julian Czarniecki.

My ancestor, Stefan Czarniecki from whom my grandfather Julian Czarniecki is believed to originate, represented “typical” Polish attitudes: faith, patriotism and courage to face the oppressor and to fight for freedom of his homeland: “Rzeczpospolita”. This is how Polish people are as cultural group: courageous, heroic fighters against Turks, Nazis, Communists and other oppressors and regimes. Poles as a group do not forget to honour God; this is why they begin their lives in a new place with building a church not a bank…

Anyways, all of those great Polish people such as Stefan Czarniecki, Adam Mickiewicz, Juliusz Slowacki,… John Paul II had guts to fight with extraordinary military strategies, words, prayers and LOVE. They fought for freedom from oppression, for freedom of human dignity, for freedom from regimes including regime of moral relativism in which everything goes…It does not really matter if they had some Jewish roots or not, if they had some blood of “the other” or not; what matters is what they have done; and how they contributed to the COMMON GOOD OF THE COUNTRY in which they lived and COMMON GOOD OF THE WORLD to which they emigrated!

Let us not forget that at the end of our earthly journey, God will judge us not by our cultural background or the amount of arguments that we have won; but by the amount of goodness and love that we have spread throughout the world on which we lived. It will be only between us and Him not between us and “the other”. After all the Ten Commandment is universal law of love which should be a common ground for Jews and Poles and “the others”. If you are an atheist and relativist on either side, you are neither a true Jew nor a true Pole…

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Mar 28, 10, 16:02 #11
beata g Great. Whom are you telling this anyway? Nobody in this thread has any problems with Jews, the issue here is not who had what ancestry but rather the hurtful implication that 'the Poles' hate everyone who has any Jewish ancestry.

beata gThreads: - Posts: 5 Joined: Mar 27, 10 ♀	Mar 29, 10, 03:26 #12
Yes, I understand your point. I just wanted to make another point; I don’t understand why someone would argue that all those Polish Icons such as Stefan Czarniecki or Adam Mickiewicz have Jewish blood in them; what is the point here? Did someone here ever read "Ksiegi Narodu i Pielgrzymstwa Polskiego" Adama Mickiewicza (it is possible to translate into English on internet)...

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Edited by: Ziemowit Mar 29, 10, 10:19 #13

beata g: I don’t understand why someone would argue that all those Polish Icons such as Stefan Czarniecki or Adam Mickiewicz have Jewish blood in them

It is because Jews were omnipresent in Poland and in Polish culture

Back to Adam Mickiewicz, I strongly doubt that if he had Jewish ancestors, the fact could have been effectively hidden from the public. He is simply too great an icon in Poland, so too many scholars would have been interested to uncover the truth. Hiding such a fact would have only been possible when all Polish scholars were anti-semitic, this in turn being possible only if all Polish people were antisemitic, too, As such a thesis seems extremely absurd, perhaps even in the eyes of the most anti-Polish visitors to the PF forums, a possible explanation is that it is a kind of a myth cherished by some. And indeed, the title of the reference given by the other poster may explain it all:

Trevek: It's somewhere in the intro to this book: Studies in Language, Literature and C-u-l-t-u-r-a-l M-y-t-h-o-l-o-g-y in Poland: Investigating "The Other"

"Cultural Mythology" is a crucial expression here. So, if "allegedly, when one scholar tried to write indepth about this, she was blocked by a certain sector of the Polish academia" just because the scholar may have been obsessed with an idea that could be easily dismissed on scientific grounds.

beata gThreads: - Posts: 5 Joined: Mar 27, 10 ♀	Mar 30, 10, 02:33 #14
Ziemowit, Well said!

NickidewbearThreads: 3 Posts: 60 Joined: Sep 17, 09 ♀	Aug 20, 11, 05:24 #15
castellenator Long overdue reply, but Lipsko is Lipsk nad Biebrzą; and we're not related to that repugnant Anti Semite Stefan Czarniecki (or at least I hope not). But if Stefan Czarniecki was a Self-Hating Jew, yemach shemo!

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Aug 20, 11, 05:41 #16

Corrections to the previous list (as a Jew who was pretty left on my own with an exception of the help of a few relatives to help me figure out my heritage, I've learned some things since 2009):

Alexjondra Aliza Andrulewicza Czarniecka; who later changed her name to Alexandria (also "Alexandra" and "Alexanderia") Alice Andrulewicz (also "Andrulevich") Czarn(i)ecki, and was the daughter of Antoni "Anthony" Andrulewicz of Katarzyna "Katherine" Morgiewicza Andrulewicza. Born on June 26, 1882; she immigrated from Suwałki to Ellis Island, settling in Sugar Notch, Pennsylvania. She died on April 6, 1936 and was buried on April 8, 1936.
Julian Jan "Felix" Chernetski (December 24, 1876 - September 11, 1922), my great-great-granddad Czarnecki. Great-Great-Granddad was the son of Antoni and Katarzyna Daniłlowicza Chernetski, and the Chernetski Family Farm was in Lisko Orliscko, Poland, Russia (now Lipsk nad Biebrzą, Poland). He claims to have been born in Suwałki; but he was born in Lipsk nad Biebrzą-- to be fair, in Suwałki gubernia, but still not in Suwałki City or (as far as I know) a listed shtetl. His parents left shtetl life by then.
Antoni "Anthony J. Czarnecki, Sr." Czarniecki (October 24, 1904 - December 2, 1964) was my dad's paternal granddad and the only Chernetski who lived on the family farm-- he was born in Cumań, Wolyń; now Tsuman, Volyns'ka Ukraine when his mother had visited Andrulewicz relatives around the Hilleli Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan in 1904. Once his parents converted themselves and him to Roman Catholicism to avoid the pogroms in Poland and Russia, and stayed Catholic to avoid persecution in America; his parents were basically done with the family back in Lisko and Suwałki, and he saw only pictures of them and whatever else a family friend named Bertha Wawrzyn would bring back when she went to visit family and friends.
Any of the other relatives that I have mentioned; and in case you need any more proof that they were Jewish, e-mail me: I have plenty more documents to show that they were Jewish, and that the pogroms did not provide a reasonable excuse to even pretend to convert in the eyes of Great-Granddad Czarnecki's grandparents.

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Aug 25, 11, 11:34 #17

Nickidewbear
The patronymic -wicz ending was typical of the NE reaches of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth where Polish, Ruthenian and Lithuanian influences intermingled. Its Russian equivalent was –вич. Jews also accepted that linguistic solution, eschewing the Hebrew ben (son) and giving us things like Manischewitz (a well-known wine brand). After the Russian partition of Poland-Lithuania (late 1700s), most of those lands coincided with the Russian Pale of Settlement, the area in which Jews under tsarist rule were forced to live. With that in mind:

MARGIEWICZ: patronymic tag possibly derived from Hebrew name Margolis (pearl).

DANIŁOWICZ: patronymic = Danielson or Danson

ANDRULEWICZ: patronymic probably from the Lithuanian name Andrulis.

CZARNIECKI: toponymic nick from numerous localities called Czarna or Czarne (Blackville, Blackton, Blackly, etc.)

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Aug 25, 11, 11:49 #18

Any of the other relatives that I have mentioned; and in case you need any more proof that they were Jewish, e-mail me: I have plenty more documents to show that they were Jewish, and that the pogroms did not provide a reasonable excuse to even pretend to convert in the eyes of Great-Granddad Czarnecki's grandparents.

Jewish tennants of Polish magnates or significant nobles often accepted the surnames of the latter - I have personally know a person of Jewish descent named Potocki (Potoccy were among the most powerful magnates in the 18th century Poland) - this can be the story behind the surname Czarniecki and perhaps some other surnames from the list

btw if you want to get in touch with your possible relatives in Poland why not trying to ask Jewish organisations in Poland

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Edited by: Nickidewbear Sep 17, 11, 03:29 #19

Any of the other relatives that I have mentioned; and in case you need any more proof that they were Jewish, e-mail me: I have plenty more documents to show that they were Jewish, and that the pogroms did not provide a reasonable excuse to even pretend to convert in the eyes of Great-Granddad Czarnecki's grandparents.

Jewish tennants of Polish magnates or significant nobles often accepted the surnames of the latter - I have personally know a person of Jewish descent named Potocki (Potoccy were among the most powerful magnates in the 18th century Poland) - this can be the story behind the surname Czarniecki and perhaps some other surnames from the list

btw if you want to get in touch with your possible relatives in Poland why not trying to ask Jewish organisations in Poland

The organizations did help me realize that Great-Great-Grandma most likely concocted "Antoni" and "Katarzyna" for generic-name coverups once she and Great-Great-Granddad converted-- unless they assimilated, which they probably did. As I had to remind one organization per their curtness:

[Them: ]Antoni and Katarzyna are not at all Jewish names; they are Christian
saints' names. In the nineteenth century, it is nigh on impossible
that Jews would have borne such names -- unless they were baptised
into the church. There is even one Czarnecki buried in the Lipsk
Russian Orthodox cemetery. Why do you believe that any of them might
have been Jewish?

[Me:] My great-granddad and his parents were, thus getting kicked off of the Chernetski (Czarniecki, Czarnecki) family farm in Lipsk nad Biebrza. Both gave Antoni and Katarzyna (Great-Great-Granddad Julian's being Antoni and Katarzyna Danilowicza Chernetski, and Great-Great-Grandma's Antoni and Katarzyna Morgiewicza (Margiewicza) Andrulewicz) as their parents' names.

They were indeed Jewish, and Great-Granddad's parents (Julian and Alexandria) converted during the pogroms. They named neither of their daughters "Mary", by the way-- all were Regina, Alexandria Alice (directly after her mother) and Cecelia "Celia" (even as they lived as Anusim Roman Catholics in Sugar Notch, PA).

And there are Jews who indeed bore Antoni and Katarzyna, out of dread for the Polish and Russian governments (e.g., Catherine (Katarzyna) the Great) rather than koved for any Christian saints).

Also, is it true that BOTH sets of great-great-great-grandparents were
named Antoni & Katarzyna? Or was that just a slip of the keyboard?
It was, now that I think of it, probably a lie on Great-Great-Grandma's part.

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