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Mongolian the Golden Horde - do Poles have Mongolian ancestry?


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Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 29
Posts: 1,091
Joined: Sep 7, 08
Gender: Male 		Edited by: Lodz_The_Boat   Sep 20, 08, 08:09 / #31
They are from the times of the teutonic knights... and they allied with the mainstream polish people in the dark ages.

They are preety much mixed. Such a mixture... that calling them apart needs an expert polish eye :)

southern:

No relationship to Poles.

dont be so sure...


This is a flag used by the Union of Polish Tatars (Zwiazek Tatarow Polskich or Polonya Tatar Birlik), the foremost organization of the remnants of a once prosperous and influential ethno-religious group of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. From feared invaders in the XIII Century, the Tatars evolved into one of the most patriotic elements of the Polish nation. Treated with respect and equality, allowed complete religious freedom, they served with enthusiasm and numerous sacrifices their new fatherland. Over the years most of them lost their language and even the religion of their fathers by blending into Polish nobility and general population. Wars, partitions and border changes affected them severely, and today only about a few hundred thousand remain faithful to their tradition and Islam. But their involvement in epic struggles in defense of Poland, from the wars with the Teutonic Knights to fierce resistance against German-Soviet invasion of 1939 entitle them a special place in the society.

However, the Polish tatars are actually not all moslems. Many of them are Christians ... a big portion of them are very much crossed ... and are difficult to trace, unless seen with a very Polish eye.

These people are the most gallant members of the Polish Army. Have been the most prized possession. Their loyalty and commitment is reported to be breathtaking.

Polish-Tatar Flag. Another accepted flag of Poland.
Polish-Tatar Flag. Another accepted flag of Poland.
rockThreads: 2
Posts: 851
Joined: Jun 13, 08
Gender: Male 		  Sep 21, 08, 12:00 / #32
Lodz_The_Boat:

This is a flag used by the Union of Polish Tatars (Zwiazek Tatarow Polskich or Polonya Tatar Birlik), the foremost organization of the remnants of a once prosperous and influential ethno-religious group of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


Polonya Tatar Birlik is Turkish. Their flag is like our flag. Polish people suppose Tatars are Mongols. No, they are not. They are Turkic. A Turc and a Tatar can understand each other easily when they talk.

Turks and Polish like each other because we have common things in history. Not only Tatars or Ottomans but also Huns. Meanwhile, There is a Polish village in İstanbul called Polonezköy ( Polish : Adampol )
Polish   Sep 22, 08, 07:34 / #33
I've never heard so much strange stories. :))) Posters prove lack of basic knowledge about Poland. :)))
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 5
Posts: 10,668
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Gender: Male 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Sep 22, 08, 07:41 / #34
rock:


Turks and Polish like each other because we have common things in history.


Yup!

Poles chucked Turks out of Europe and Turks got chucked out of Europe by Poles!
That's what I call common history too...
:)
Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 29
Posts: 1,091
Joined: Sep 7, 08
Gender: Male 		  Sep 22, 08, 09:24 / #35
rock:

Polonya Tatar Birlik is Turkish

Being Turkic doesnt mean TURKISH bluntly. The Tatars look mongol... their very personality is Mongol... and they came in Europe as a part of the Mongol Army.

I think its very naive of your calling them turkish... to even start with race...they are not turkish at all!
rockThreads: 2
Posts: 851
Joined: Jun 13, 08
Gender: Male 		  Sep 22, 08, 13:57 / #36
Bratwurst Boy:

Poles chucked Turks out of Europe and Turks got chucked out of Europe by Poles!

Yes, then you Germans invaded Poland. It is funny a German makes this comment.
Lodz_The_Boat:

I think its very naive of your calling them turkish... to even start with race...they are not turkish at all!

Ask to a Tatar if he belongs to Turkic or Mongol world. It is not about race. It is reality.
Polish:

Posters prove lack of basic knowledge about Poland. :)))

What is the basic knowledge about this issue.
Polish   Sep 22, 08, 14:32 / #37
rock:

What is the basic knowledge about this issue.


I have been laughing after seing some theories here.

I agree with you from XIX century Poles and Turks are friends. Our president always mention it.
Tatars are not Turks :) Sobieski was pure Pole and other arguments not supported by data or link are just funny. :)
Polish   Sep 22, 08, 14:39 / #38
rock:

There is a Polish village in İstanbul called Polonezköy ( Polish : Adampol )


Out TV sometimes show this vilage. Poles there have church and are respected. It is something Turkey should show in europe.
rockThreads: 2
Posts: 851
Joined: Jun 13, 08
Gender: Male 		  Sep 22, 08, 14:41 / #39
Polish:

Tatars are not Turks :)


What is your comment about this link ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars

Polish:

Sobieski was pure Pole


I don't know how pure Pole he is. But he hadn't attacked Turks together with Germans, Ottomans next target would be Germany not Poland. Maybe, You would not be a sandwich between Germans and Russians later.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 5
Posts: 10,668
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Gender: Male 		  Sep 22, 08, 14:43 / #40
rock:

Yes, then you Germans invaded Poland. It is funny a German makes this comment.


Yes...and as everybody know Poles and Germans love each other because of their common history, right? Right! :)

rock:

Turks and Polish like each other because we have common things in history.

Polish   Sep 22, 08, 14:52 / #41
rock:

What is your comment about this link ?


--Although by the 18th century the Tatars adopted the local language, the Islamic religion and many Tatar traditions (e.g. the sacrifice of bulls in their mosques during the main religious festivals) were preserved. This led to formation of a distinctive Muslim culture, in which the elements of Muslim orthodoxy mixed with religious tolerance and a relatively liberal society. For instance, the women in Lipka Tatar society traditionally had the same rights and status as men, and could attend non-segregated schools.--

Very positive information.

Your link claim they are member of your family, you are right.
rock:

. Maybe, You would not be a sandwich between Germans and Russians later.


Maybe there is little true in this statement. Who knows what would happen if...
Guest   Sep 29, 08, 20:54 / #42
Hi, everybody!!! Just come over to this site when browsing the net. About the origin of tatar people. Turkic people were united first by oguzkhan in the 2 nd century b. c. this empire was in central asia with the capital in ferghana valley. But some tribes doesnt want to obey him(oguzkhan) leaves the central asia towards east. After crossing the deserts of taklan makan and ghobi they coming to the river valleys like irtish, enisey(enisey turkish word means mother water) Starts to habitate from sibir(sibir turkish word means land plenty of water) to far east. Current mongolia was called before turkistan cause main population was turkic. When gengizkhan came to power there were 24 turkic tribes and 3 mongolic tribes in mongolia. Gengiskhan's mother was from turkic tribe called kongrat and all his life he spoke only turkic. because gengiskhan was mongol all his followers started to be called mongols. It is like when franks came to france the main population was galles and franks were small part of total poulation but the country started to be named after them. the same story with angles who assimilated into celtic population in england. the same story with turkic tribe called bulgars who conquered current bulgaria and whole country started to be called after them. if anybody has more questions mail me to u_zoir@yahoo.co.uk cause i think i will not be back to this site again. good luck everybody.
Czerwony LisThreads: 1
Posts: 34
Joined: Mar 23, 08
Gender: Male 		  Sep 30, 08, 13:19 / #43
Check out Genghis Khans DNA markers at ftdna.com. Claiming to be a descendent of Genghis Khan is one thing but having similar markers to the ones published is another. Order a test at a minimum of 12 marker Y-DNA test (making sure the same markers are tested) and you'll find out if you are or not.

DNA evidence - Genghis Khan Effect
Zerjal et al [2003] [6] identified a Y-chromosomal lineage present in about 8% of the men in a large region of Asia (about 0.5% of the men in the world). The paper suggests that the pattern of variation within the lineage is consistent with a hypothesis that it originated in Mongolia about 1,000 years ago. Such a spread would be too rapid to have occurred by genetic drift, and must therefore be the result of selection. The authors propose that the lineage is carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan and his close male relatives, and that it has spread through social selection.

According to Family Tree DNA, Genghis Khan is believed to have belonged to Haplogroup C3.[7]

The 25 Marker Y-DNA Profile of Genghis Khan released by Family Tree DNA is:[7]

DYS number 385a 385b 388 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 394 426 437 439 447 448 449 454 455 458 459a 459b 464a 464b 464c 464d
Haplotype 12 13 14 13 29 25 10 11 13 16 11 14 10 26 22 27 12 11 18 8 8 11 11 12

Check:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan

Robert
gailannskiThreads: -
Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 27, 08
Gender: Female 		  Oct 27, 08, 14:40 / #44
I found your question here while having a conversation with my Polish mother and a cousin, about Mongolian ancestry in the Poles. I have always looked a bit Mongolian. Since you say you do also, I'd love to swap pictures and see what you look like!
Gail
Tykotski   Dec 14, 08, 01:20 / #45
My dad's people were Tykotski s from a little town by the same name...
sometimes Russia (Ukraine) , sometimes Poland......They fled Europe
between the World War I and II. The greater family has both Jewish and
Christian relatives.

My Dad, and I, (not so much my brothers who take after
my Mom)........have yellow toned skin, flat faces with high cheakbones .

When my friend Charles hosted a Mongolian boy, we had a gathering in which folks started commenting on how we looked like we could be distant cousins....got me to thinking...how that could be...
Then I remembered the Mongolian invasion of "Eurasia". So...can I check
out my Dad's gene pool through me, a female? ( Dad was buried years ago.)
CalicoeThreads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 08
Gender: Female 		  Jan 14, 09, 21:15 / #46
Turks are originally from Mongolia.
SoftsongThreads: 5
Posts: 309
Joined: Sep 2, 07
Gender: Female 		Edited by: Softsong   Jan 14, 09, 21:23 / #47
From what I know, Tykotski, for the above mentioned test, you would need to have one of your brothers take it. It is a Y DNA test.

As females we have no Y DNA to test. There are some tests that can look at general DNA inherited from both parents. This one is different and relates to the paternal line. Y DNA is specific to men. As females we have MtDNA which is passed down virtually unchanged from mother-to-mother. Sons receive it, and can be tested to see their maternal lineage, but they cannot pass their mother's MtDNA on to their own children. Any children they have would inherit their own Mom's MtDNA.

So, your best bet to take that Y DNA test would be to get a brother to volunteer. It is not necessary to test the person in the family who looks the most Mongolian.
CalicoeThreads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 08
Gender: Female 		  Jan 14, 09, 21:32 / #48
Esti Veneti:
No,the Mongols have the classic mongolic spot in a high percentage of the population.Also shape of eyes and nose is different.No relationship to Poles.
I have seen some Russians mixed but no Poles.

Can you please tell me what is that "spot"? I am part Polish and Hungarian but was adopted, so I don't know the folklore around it. However, I have a birthmark or "spot" on my left shoulder.
DK1Threads: 3
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 15, 09
Gender: Male 		Edited by: DK1   Jan 15, 09, 21:24 / #49
Hello everyone,

For those interested where Poles place in terms of intra-European and inter-continental genetic structure, please refer to my blog. You'll find there many links to latest studies and my commentary on them. Here's an examle...

Polish, European and world samples compared using almost 400,000 genome wide markers

Context is important when it comes to genetic affinity, and this is clearly illustrated by an article published in the European Journal of Human Genetics this week.

The real purpose of this study was to spot variation that might be useful in medical work. However, for all those interested where Poles and other Europeans cluster genetically on colourful graphs, my initial point here is crucial.

It really depends who's on the plot, and including non-European samples in this study has quite an effect on the result. For instance, on the intra-European graph Poles basically sit between Dresden and Moscow, but mixing more with the latter. When an African and two Asian populations are added, we end up almost at the top of a much tighter European blob, overlapping heavily with Swedes, Slovaks, Germans and Czechs, just to name a few.

This begs the question, what would happen if more populations were added? For example, from Italy, Finland, the Middle East, India, North and Central Asia, and so on? We can only guess at this stage, so let's hope someone in the game reads this blog.

Anyway, this study does have some very neat tables showing the relative affinity of the groups to each other. Spaniards exhibit the strongest links to the African sample, the Yoruba from Nigeria. On the other hand, its the Russians who are relatively closest to the Asians from China and Japan. Moreover, some individuals from France, Great Britain, Romania and Germany are also being pulled towards the non-Europeans, possibly indicating some sort of admixture? Hard to say, because the study doesn't really focus on that. Interestingly, the Poles' affinity to the Africans and Asians is rather weak in comparison to that shown by most of the other European groups.

On a final note, it's curious that unlike previous studies of this sort, the main gradient here is the one running from west to east, and not north to south. I suspect a lack of samples form Itlay and the southern Balkans is largely the reason for that.

polishgenes.blogspot.com
DK1Threads: 3
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 15, 09
Gender: Male 		Edited by: Moderator   Jan 15, 09, 21:55 / #50
^ Here's a diagram from the above mentioned study, illustrating the genetic position of Poles compared to other Europeans, as well as the Han Chinese, Japanese and Nigerians.



Simon C Heath, Investigation of the fine structure of European populations with applications to disease association studies, doi:10.1038/ejhg.2008.210
CalicoeThreads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 08
Gender: Female 		Edited by: Calicoe   Jan 15, 09, 22:22 / #51
Thanks DK1. I haven't looked at it yet, but will do so at some point. One question:

If "on the intra-European graph Poles basically sit between Dresden and Moscow, but mixing more with the latter" and it is "the Russians who are relatively closest to the Asians from China and Japan", how can it be that "the Poles' affinity to the Asians is rather weak in comparison to that shown by most of the other European groups" if we are mixed more with Moscow?

I will attempt to answer my own question: Is it because Moscow is of a different history and mixture than St. Petersburg and Northern Russia? At any rate, given history, I personally find the conclusion that the "Poles affinity to the Asians is rather weak" when Russia's is strong rather weak itself.
DK1Threads: 3
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 15, 09
Gender: Male 		Edited by: DK1   Jan 15, 09, 23:26 / #52
Calicoe:
I will attempt to answer my own question: Is it because Moscow is of a different history and mixture than St. Petersburg and Northern Russia?

"Moscow" here is a proxy location for the ethnic Russian sample, which comes from all over European Russia.

At any rate, given history, I personally find the conclusion that the "Poles affinity to the Asians is rather weak" when Russia's is strong rather weak itself.

The intra-European comparison just looks at European genetic variation, while the inter-continental comparison is the one that considers foreign admixture.

So the reason for this difference between Russians and Poles is because European Russia is inhabited by many Finno-Ugric and Turkic ethnicities, who have ancient links to East Asians. Thus, some Russians (about 10% on the plot above), are actually just Russified Finno-Ugrics and Turkics, or they are Slavs who have a lot of that admix.

Poland was never inhabited by these groups in a big way, and various migrations and invasions have not proved to have a major demographic impact on the population.

In any case, the samples and amount of markers tested here are very impressive. They give an objective view of genetic relationships. On the other hand, historical sources tend to be imprecise and very subjective.
CalicoeThreads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 08
Gender: Female 		Edited by: Calicoe   Jan 15, 09, 23:56 / #53
Thanks DK1. I will take a closer and more thorough look as promised. I am part Hungarian and part Polish, so I guess my genetic mix would push me closer to the Russians. I understand what you are saying about history and the genetic samples, but that doesn't mean a scientific study is without bias. I still find it hard to believe, but I will explore it further.

*edit: By the way, people on this thread seem to know a lot about genetics and I want to have a DNA test. I am adopted, and it is important to me to know my full ethnic heritage. I am female, and want to know the full ancestry from both mother and father. I live in South Korea right now, so I need a test that can be available anywhere.

Any suggestions?
DK1Threads: 3
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 15, 09
Gender: Male 		Edited by: DK1   Jan 16, 09, 00:17 / #54
Btw...

The above study used many genome wide SNPs, which are markers located at different sites around the genome that give an indication of genetic structure, and thus genetic relationships.

Other, somewhat less sophisticated ways of looking at population genetics are Y-chromosome (paternal) and mtDNA (maternal) lineages. These can give us an idea of the ancestry of groups and individuals, provided we also take into consideration the sex biased nature of these lineages, genetic drift and natural selection.

Here are a couple of reports...

Rafal Ploski, Homogeneity and distinctiveness of Polish paternal lineages revealed by Y chromosome microsatellite haplotype analysis, 10.1007/s00439-002-0728-0

B. A. MALYARCHUK, Mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians, 10.1046/j.1469-1809.2002.00116.x

Calicoe:
*edit: By the way, people on this thread seem to know a lot about genetics and I want to have a DNA test. I am adopted, and it is important to me to know my full ethnic heritage. I am female, and want to know the full ancestry from both mother and father. I live in South Korea right now, so I need a test that can be available anywhere.

Any suggestions?

Your best bet is 23andme. All other companies aren't worth the bother at the moment, or they're too expensive.

https://www.23andme.com
CalicoeThreads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 08
Gender: Female 		  Jan 16, 09, 00:22 / #55
Thanks DK1. I took a look at your website and the study looks quite extensive. I'm sure I will be on there lots. I don't know much about genetics and DNA studies, so I have some reading up to do.
deedeeThreads: -
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 23, 09
Gender: Female 		Edited by: deedee   Jan 23, 09, 12:38 / #56
Absolutely, Poles can have Mongal blood!

My mom's family always suspected this. I have almond eyes, as did my uncle, Joe, had very almond eyes, very dark hair.

My mom's family has some Polish, also German and French. My dad's parents were Lithuanian immigrants.

I took a DNA test to confirm or rule-out Asian blood. My results were 7% East Asian ancestry.
___________________________________________________________________

I am CONVINCED that the Mongol invasions left a HUGE imprint in the Slavic European gene pool.

Do you know who Charles Bronson is? The late actor? Find some photos of him on the search engines, and you will see his Asian ancestry, at least it seems quite likely.

I think he was Lithuanian and Polish. Anyway, he looked like he was part Indian to me. He sometimes portrayed Indians or Mexicans due to his looks.

I can see the Asian blood in me, and the DNA test confirmed my hunches.
incubusThreads: 1
Posts: 150
Joined: Apr 9, 08
Gender: Female 		  Jan 26, 09, 10:55 / #57
i quite agree with you, deedee. is your blood type B by any chance? it ss the blood type that originated in asia (himalayas to be exact) over 15,000 years ago (i think i got the number right) and since asia is THE ONLY place this blood type originates, if someone`s got that blood type, they must have got some asian ancestry somewhere down the line.

i suspect that if i traced my family tree, and could trace it that far, i`m sure i`d get to a point where i`d find out that i`ve got some tatar ancestry. moreover, i`ve got blood type B as have most of my immediate family members from both my mother and father`s side. my mom`s sister`s facial features are similar to an indian person`s and her daughter looks a bit chinese. i, myself, was told that i look chinese in the dark and have got slanting eyes, high cheekbones, small lips, big nose, the lot.

i`m thinking of having a dna test done now just to prive my lil theory right :)
PrinceThreads: 26
Posts: 826
Joined: Nov 4, 08
Gender: Male 		Edited by: Prince   Jan 26, 09, 11:23 / #58
I have 0 rh+ blood group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_diet

"Blood group O is believed by D'Adamo to be the hunter, the earliest human blood group. The diet recommends that this blood group eat a higher protein diet."


schabowy

miêso
noimmigration   Jan 26, 09, 11:51 / #59
something like 1 in 5 people in the whole world are related to ghengis khan. I believe that most people haveat least a miniscule amount of mongolian dna.
PrinceThreads: 26
Posts: 826
Joined: Nov 4, 08
Gender: Male 		  Jan 26, 09, 18:27 / #60
Muslim Tatars in Poland
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