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Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks.


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guesswhoThreads: 23
Posts: 3,326
Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀ 		Edited by: guesswho  Oct 18, 10, 04:47    #91
Filios1:
This is the problem though. The historical truth is really not something black or white


hat off to you, at least you're trying to stay constructive. It doesn't really matter what we both believe as long as we continue our discussion in a cultural manner.
Thanks for that.
Filios1Threads: 15
Posts: 1,953
Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 04:47    #92
guesswho:
At least you're funny :-)


Well, it really does help to ease the tension sometimes.
guesswhoThreads: 23
Posts: 3,326
Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀ 		 Oct 18, 10, 04:49    #93
Filios1:
Well, it really does help to ease the tension sometimes.


Very true and it makes you sympathetic too :-)
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 04:49    #94
guesswho:
At least I don't have any problems to accept the historical truth

stay on this forum i will teach you about history
who said " history is written by victors "
so my young apprentice history in printed books might be inaccurate or just made-up
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Oct 18, 10, 04:49    #95
Filios1:
But it could have too easily been fabricated/modified, what have you.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,720513,00.html

...
The essential question is whether the new data is accurate. Ptolemy's "Geography" is preserved only in duplication. The copy so far considered the most authentic is an edition produced around the year 1300 and kept by the Vatican.

But the team of experts in Berlin had the great fortune to be able to refer to a parchment tracked down at Topkapi Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, the former residence of the Ottoman sultans. The document, consisting of unbound sheepskin pages with writing in Roman capital letters, is the oldest edition of Ptolemy's work ever discovered. A reproduction of this version is due to be published next year.

Hard to fabricate...
Alot of people who must lie and two different copy's who say the same...another anti-polish conspiracy? ;)


Filios1:
a time when Germany was expanding into the east, towards *pagan* Poland and Lithuania Commonwealth. They also wanted to get into Prussia. And what better way to legitimize this great crusade to convert and destroy Slavic and Baltic people, than to claim that this land is ancient German land.


And here is the myth...Germans were pushed out before by the Slavs. The land into what they were "expanding" was german land before.

That is something that doesn't fit into the well known narrative of the nice, peaceful Slavs and the agressive Germans who always push eastwards into polish lands.

That's why this map is not openly accepted by some Poles.
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 04:54    #96
BB
That's why this map is not openly accepted by some Poles.

no polish person would accept this lie
guesswhoThreads: 23
Posts: 3,326
Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀ 		Edited by: guesswho  Oct 18, 10, 04:54    #97
Marek11111:
so my young apprentice history in printed books might be inaccurate or just made-up


Learn how to discuss from your countryman Filios, he does an excellent job in it.
Now, if I follow your theory, I'll have to assume that it works both ways, right? Just as well the books you've read and the history you know and accept might be inaccurate and made up, correct? Or is it only made up when it's not written by the Poles?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Oct 18, 10, 04:55    #98
Marek11111:
no polish person would accept this lie


Most will have no problems and they won't have any other choice actually! ;)

It's like with Giordano Bruno, the Vatican and the flat earth...you can burn the messenger but
the message will still prevail! :)
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 04:59    #99
yes show me the other find that is backing up the conclusion that Germans were living on Slav lands
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Oct 18, 10, 05:04    #100
Marek11111:
yes show me the other find that is backing up the conclusion that Germans were living on Slav lands


Well...most of the towns are still there... ;)

As I said...that map is a sensation and will pave the way for alot of archeological and historical bruahaha...we can only sit back and enjoy the ride! :)

I for one can't wait what they will find...

PS: But don't act as if it would be totally news even to you that the germanic tribes (coming from the North) where living in central Europe before the Slavs immigrated there from the East.
THAT one is a mainstream acknowledged historical fact, totally independent from Ptolemy...
Filios1Threads: 15
Posts: 1,953
Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Filios1  Oct 18, 10, 05:09    #101
guesswho:
It doesn't really matter what we both believe


Well, true enough. But sometimes a really well supported post can sway someone in this direction or another. That is what I hope to do with you, for instance ;)

guesswho:
continue our discussion in a cultural manner.


I've never been one to begin acting like a child on a forum when trying to prove my point. You just come off as weak and easily intimidated/frustrated.

Bratwurst Boy:
Alot of people who must lie and two different copy's who say the same...another anti-polish conspiracy?


Well, not exactly BB. But I think you're intelligent enought to realize that the Roman Catholic Teutonic Order had it self all mixed up with the Papacy.
For instance:

In 1217 Pope Honorius III proclaimed a crusade against the Prussian pagans. Duke Conrad of Massovia had been invaded by these barbarians and, in 1225, desperate for assistance, asked the Teutonic knights to come to his aid. He promised the Master possession of Culm and Dobrzin which Salza accepted with the provision that the knights could retain any Prussian territories that the Order captured. The Emperor's grant of Princely rank in 1226/27 in the "Golden Bull" of Rimini offered the knights sovereignty of any lands they captured as immediate fiefs of the Empire. The campaign to drive out the pagan tribes from prussia only lasted fifty years, the consolidation of their power in north-eastern Europe lasted one hundred and sixty years before the Polish-Lithuanian began to push the knights backwards. This Crusading enterprise succeeded only at a terrible cost, above all to the native populations but also the lives of thousands of knights and soldiers.

Note that it is in the 13th-14th century when these crusades are called, and its exactly when this map seemed to be reproduced by the Vatican.

It seems as though you are placing a lot of trust in the hands of the Vatican, when itself as an institution, has been as corrupt as any other in history.
It was in their interest at the time to fund the Teutonic knights fighting their way back into the east, as it would increase their own wealth and prestige (although of course most of these regions were already Catholic)

Bratwurst Boy:
Germans were pushed out before by the Slavs. The land into what they were "expanding" was german land before.


Again, using black and white terms. The populations of these regions were already so intermixed that you can't really cross a line across the map and say "here are the Germanics" and "here are the Sarmatians." You aren't naiive enough to believe that, are you? The numerous tribes like Ostrogoths and Visigoths were mixed Germanic-Slavic. Peaceful settled agrarian tribes weren't doing the fighting, these guys were. Whether they pushed Germanics back, or helped push them forward, is altogether unclear. It's almost as if Germans calling for a crusade against Germans.
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:10    #102
BB you can not produce one map after ??? with out collaborating evidence and accept it as truth
your assumption is wrong and I am right.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:10    #103
Marek11111:
BB you can not produce one map after ??? with out collaborating evidence and accept it as truth
your assumption is wrong and I am right.


What are you talking about???
Filios1Threads: 15
Posts: 1,953
Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:14    #104
Marek11111:
Marek11111Threads: 28
Posts: 782
Joined: Aug 6, 09
Gender: Male


Marek, I don't want to come off sounding rude, but this is a question I think all three of us are dying to know the answer to.
How much have you had to drink?
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:15    #105
ok do you have any other proof of your claim?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Oct 18, 10, 05:15    #106
Filios1:
Well, not exactly BB.


Well, I don't think so too... ;)

Marek seems to think so!

Filios1:
Note that it is in the 13th-14th century when these crusades are called, and its exactly when this map seemed to be reproduced by the Vatican.


That's why it's great they found an even older copy in the Topkapi-palace in Istanbul...double proof is just better. :)

Filios1:
The populations of these regions were already so intermixed


Not at the beginning. The Slavs pushing westwards assimilated those germans who still lived there after most of them migrated south to Rome.
Even more mixing happened as the Germanics came back...since then it's a continous shoving back and for.

Filios1:
"here are the Germanics" and "here are the Sarmatians."


In the beginning there were surely clear borders between people of different traditions, language, culture...as today.
It was clear to Ptolemy and Tacitus. The border between our both people is still there even after 2000 years of mixing.

Filios1:
If they pushed Germanics back, or helped push them forward, is altogether a blur.


I agree it's never only black and white and more of a grey blur.
But its the Germans who were painted by the Slavs in the blackest colors, as the only agressors, for centuries...it's time to throw that one sided viewpoint into the bin! :)

Just think about how Poles justify the ethnical cleansing of millions of Germans..."re-taking originally polish lands"....Tja...that argument is now busted!
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:16    #107
How much have you had to drink?

today?
this week?
George8600Threads: 20
Posts: 1,114
Joined: Feb 19, 09 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:19    #108
Marek11111:
this week?


me? One 750ml bottle of canadian whiskey...is that alot?
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:21    #109
no it is just enough before dinner
Filios1Threads: 15
Posts: 1,953
Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Filios1  Oct 18, 10, 05:25    #110
Marek11111:
today?


Tonight, or this morning, whatever time zone you are in.

Bratwurst Boy:
Topkapi-palace


And so I default to my previous position, that Ptolemy was a Slav who was payed off by confused Slavs or in other words, Germanics ;)

Bratwurst Boy:
it's time to throw that one sided viewpoint into the bin! :)


I've never been in favour of such a view.. because in history, no one is entirely innocent. Slavs were invading just as much as Germans were invading. But that still doesn't change my mind over the map. Map is practically inaccurate, as you would expect it to be. Slavs may have not been native to some partial tracts of land that it has owned in history. But I would still consider todays Poland give or take (minus thousands of km's in the east, and shifted partially to the west) in keeping with its historical borders.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Oct 18, 10, 05:26    #111
Filios1:
And so I default to my previous position, that Ptolemy was a Slav who was payed off by confused Slavs or in other words, Germanics ;)


Cheers Fili, glad to have you back in that mad house called PF :)

...going to bed now...
Filios1Threads: 15
Posts: 1,953
Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:28    #112
Bratwurst Boy:
glad to have you back in thad mad house called PF


Third time coming back ;)


Bratwurst Boy:
...going to bed now...


Gute nacht.
And don't forget to take your helmet off before getting into bed.
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 10, 05:33    #113
the map is forgery and not representing any evidence.
we will have to agree to disagree.
if you find more documents let me know as maybe a map that was written by roman in 1 ad or in England in 300 ad.
ShortHairThugThreads: -
Posts: 1,374
Joined: May 1, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: ShortHairThug  Oct 19, 10, 03:56    #114
guesswho:
The Russian occupation time in Poland is over. Poland is a free and a much better country now. No need to stick to the old communist history and geography. You guys are free now and it's time to open up to the unknown before the 1989 historical facts.
I like Polish people, the only problem I have with you guys here and there is when we're talking about history because you still seem not to let go the old "truth".

The stupidity of your average Yank shines right through. So what is the "truth" or the "facts" that you speak of? What do you know about Ptolemy or his writings anyway o wise one? To the rest of us uneducated former commies as well as very well educated western morons, unlike yourself, (mere mortals if you will) historically speaking we know virtually nothing about the man himself, all we know is that he lived in the 2nd century A.D and worked in Alexandria. His works were translated into Latin in the 15th century, some 1300 years later and that’s the document that’s being disused here. Columbus himself read freshly translated Ptolemy’s "Geography", based his theories and plotted a course in accordance to what he just read in that book; look at the confusion that it caused when he reached the new world, that what he thought was Asia. All due to Ptolemy’s exaggerated size of Asia as presented in his work, you know the one we discuss here.

Why do you suppose Scotland is skews as much as 90 degrees to the east in his work? His fairly accurate description of the known world is based on the extent of the Roman army’s reach where the accurate measurements and the distances would have been known to the Romans therefore to Ptolemy himself, everything else past Hadrian's Wall as well as other parts of Europe where Rome had no influence was Tara Incognita to Ptolemy (here be dragons). What lied beyond that point was based on educated guess, speculation, hearsay from numerous unsubstantiated sources, that’s what he had to work with, so he did his best under the circumstances. Placement of the tribes as well as associating them with those of the Germanic or Slavic extraction is pure guesswork. Archeological evidence on the lands in question discovered so far and dating back to the time frame in question does not support this theory either. So much for the truth! The rest is simply someone else’s interpretation of his writings; wishful thinking, a whole lot of fantasy all neatly wrapped up for easy consumption by the masses and perhaps even semi coherent to the likes of you but you still have no problem excepting it as a gospel truth simply because you’re too lazy to read up on the subject matter and draw your own conclusions.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,440
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 19, 10, 03:57    #115
even though many people may not agree with it, 90% of the time Bratwurst Boy is right about what he says :)
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 19, 10, 04:42    #116
PennBoy
even though many people may not agree with it, 90% of the time Bratwurst Boy is right about what he says :)

see, you do not know the points there is no other known maps of this region so someone translate a map that Ptolemy write but he was in Egypt working from tails or letters, writings of roman soldier and of couse he might have name them with german names but it does mean they were German towns. When I see other collaborating evidence I say BB is wrong.
how BB can be 90% right when I only agree with him 1% and I am 100% right ;-)
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		 Oct 24, 10, 18:46    #117
Ogien:
Here's the distribution of the R1a haplogroup which is common in Slavic populations.


It is interesting to note that the highest percentage of R1a haplogroup is in what is modern day Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Afghanistan has the exact percentage as do Poles.

Polish origins?
Filios1Threads: 15
Posts: 1,953
Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 24, 10, 18:56    #118
Actually, there was recently an article I read somewhere... Unfortunately I cannot find the link, that higher casts in India (who have visibly lighter skin) have really high R1a occurance, while lower casts have barely, if any, R1a. Article explained this by saying that a few thousand years ago, some fairly large scale Slavic migration made its way to India, and the Slavs, because of more complex technologies, quickly assumed positions of power in the existing culture there.

So I would not be surprised that this migration made its way from Central-Eastern Europe as well. Just like Croatians have higher R1a because they are originally from modern Poland...
FlaglessPoleThreads: 7
Posts: 1,394
Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 24, 10, 18:58    #119
Bratwurst Boy:
Just think about how Poles justify the ethnical cleansing of millions of Germans..."re-taking originally polish lands"....Tja...that argument is now busted!


BB can you say: soczewica, miele, koło, młyn? ;)
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		 Oct 24, 10, 22:52    #120
"Poles justify the ethnical cleansing of millions of Germans..."re-taking originally polish lands"....Tja...that argument is now busted"

Seems like BB is putting all his marbles on that 'suspicious' map with its 'dubious' interpretations. It's his hoped for "Holy Grail" (and of course Germany is Camelot). Hmmm, reminds me of this:

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