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Polish mother is now a US citizen. Polish Citizenship through ancestry?

  posts: 67

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Harry Threads: 100
Posts: 13,679
Joined: May 2, 2007
  ♂ Jul 14, 2009, 07:19pm  #

benszymanski:
I don't believe either that the different districts can interpret the rules that differently either, and as I say, my application is going through fine (albeit very slowly).

When I was at the tax office registering my company to pay VAT and the dragon behind the desk said that one-person companies could not pay VAT quarterly. There was a notice on the wall of her office which said they could but she insisted that I couldn't. I've also heard that certain local offices will just point-blank refuse to let US citizens register one-person companies despite them having the legal right to do so.

benszymanski:
more convenient for them if his mother does an application but I don't believe that is a requirement.

More convenient yes, but also twice as costly and likely to take twice as long too. Especially as in this case it looks like the mother's claim being the more complicated of the two (as it looks that if she is Polish, he must be).



z_darius Threads: 20
Posts: 4,985
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂ Jul 14, 2009, 09:08pm  #

Harry:
it's always been 'my grandfather was Polish which makes my father Polish so I am too'.

Perhaps Polish (or half Polish) in a sense of ethnic origin/heritage but not citizenship.
Not automatically anyway.


Harry Threads: 100
Posts: 13,679
Joined: May 2, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 12:15pm  #

z_darius:
Perhaps Polish (or half Polish) in a sense of ethnic origin/heritage but not citizenship.
Not automatically anyway.

You really do know nothing about Polish citizenship law, do you? I would very much suggest that you leave this discussion to people who have at least some vauge clue what they are talking about.


z_darius Threads: 20
Posts: 4,985
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 04:25pm  #

Harry:
You really do know nothing about Polish citizenship law, do you?

Oh, I do. I am a Polish citizen too. You're not.

Harry:
I would very much suggest that you leave this discussion to people who have at least some vauge clue what they are talking about.

Indeed, you have a very vague clue.

A person who was born born before 1918 and then went to the US, also before 1918, would not have Polish citizenship. Hence the person would possibly pass on Polish heritage and lineage to his offspring, but not citizenship since himself he would not have been a citizen of Poland, without first applying for it. Then his offspring would have to apply for it too. Nothing automatic in this, is it?


Harry Threads: 100
Posts: 13,679
Joined: May 2, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 04:41pm  #

z_darius:
Oh, I do. I am a Polish citizen too. You're not.

Your knowledge of Polish law is shocking. I get my Polish passport anytime I want it.


z_darius:
Indeed, you have a very vague clue.

Actually it's a bit more than a vague clue. Quite a lot more.


z_darius:
A person who was born born before 1918 and then went to the US, also before 1918, would not have Polish citizenship.

That would be very very interesting but we're talking about a person who "emigrated to Canada sometime between 1924-1928".


z_darius:
Hence the person would possibly pass on Polish heritage and lineage to his offspring, but not citizenship since himself he would not have been a citizen of Poland, without first applying for it.

Do you even have any idea what the words Jus Sanguinis mean?


z_darius Threads: 20
Posts: 4,985
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 04:52pm  #

Harry:
I get my Polish passport anytime I want it.

There is not such a thing as "your" Polish passport. You simply don't have one.

Harry:
That would be very very interesting but we're talking about a person who "emigrated to Canada sometime between 1924-1928".

I wasn't talking about any specific person about the4 fact that there is nothing automatic about Polish citizenship.

Harry:
Do you even have any idea what the words Jus Sanguinis mean?

Why, do you need a refresher in Latin? Oops, I guess you never took Latin in school.

Blood is one thing but papers are quite another. Someone who never held Polish citizenship cannot pass it on to anybody. Polish citizenship did not exists for some 123 years before 1918. Just because a person's grandfather had Polish blood does not mean that person will automatically get Polish citizenship. A person born in Warsaw in 1915 was a citizen of Russia, or rather a subject of the Russia's tzar.


Harry Threads: 100
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Joined: May 2, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 05:25pm  #

z_darius:
There is not such a thing as "your" Polish passport. You simply don't have one.

And any time I want one, I get one.


z_darius:
I wasn't talking about any specific person about the4 fact that there is nothing automatic about Polish citizenship.

We however were discussing a very specific person. Or at least we were before you gave us the full benefit of your extensive knowledge. Polish citizenship is very automatic: a child born to Polish parent or parents is automatically a Polish citizen at the moment of their birth. End of story.


z_darius:
Someone who never held Polish citizenship cannot pass it on to anybody.

And as noted, somebody was born to a Polish parent automatically has Polish citizenship.


z_darius:
A person born in Warsaw in 1915 was a citizen of Russia, or rather a subject of the Russia's tzar.

And under the Statute on Citizenship of the Polish State of January 20, 1920, such person automatically became Polish on January 20, 1920. And they would have retained that citizenship until at least 1933 because a minor can not renounce citizenship.


bilomnic Threads: -
Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 12, 2009
  ♀ Jul 15, 2009, 05:39pm  #

I'm currently pursuing the confirmation of my Polish citizenship. It is NOT a straightforward and automatic process. I am Canadian, but my parents were both Polish citizens who emigrated to Canada after the war.

There are many important limiting dates and criteria:

Date of ancestor's birth
Ancestor's gender (some historic limitations for women)
Date of departure from Poland
Date of ancestor's naturalization (prior to 1951?)
foreign military service?

Gathering acceptable "proof" of citizenship is an arduous process. When and if an ancestor is "proved" to be a citizenship, the next step is to determine if that ancestor reatined/lost their citizenship. If citizenship was lost, then obviously citizenship cannot be conferred on to subsequent generations.

Not a fun process and certainly NOT automatic.


Harry Threads: 100
Posts: 13,679
Joined: May 2, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 05:58pm  #

bilomnic:
I'm currently pursuing the confirmation of my Polish citizenship. It is NOT a straightforward and automatic process.

Which is why I said it would take more than a year for Kos88's claim to be processed.

The confirmation is complex but the citizenship is automatic (provided the criteria are met and the proof is provided).


z_darius Threads: 20
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Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: z_darius  Jul 15, 2009, 06:12pm  #

Harry:
And any time I want one, I get one.

To have one and to get one are tow different things.
You don't have one and you are a resident of Poland, not a citizen

Harry:
We however were discussing a very specific person.

And yet you wrote about grandparents before I even knew about this thread.

Harry:
a child born to Polish parent or parents is automatically a Polish citizen at the moment of their birth. End of story.

Not true.
A person born outside Poland has to claim the Polish citizenship and the decision has to be made. Poland has no way of controlling all births of Polish citizens all over the world until they come forward and claim the citizenship. If the application is filed abroad it needs to be filed in a Polish consulate. It's a process, and pretty easy but not automatic.

For descendants of Polish citizens these are the rules:

Za osobę polskiego pochodzenia ustawa uznaje osobę deklarującą narodowość polską i spełniającą łącznie dwa warunki:

* co najmniej jedno z jej rodziców lub dziadków albo dwoje pradziadków było narodowości polskiej (warunek ten uważa się za spełniony, jeśli ww. przodkowie potwierdzili swoją przynależność do Narodu Polskiego),

* wykaże ona swój związek z polskością, w szczególności przez pielęgnowanie polskiej mowy, polskich tradycji i zwyczajów.


translation:

A person is considered of Polish descend if the said person declres Polish nationality and fulfills these two conditions:

* at least one of the parents or grandparents, or both grand-grand parents were of Polish nationality (this condition is fulfilled if the antecedents confirmed that they belong to the Polish nation),

* shows his/her ties to Polishness, particularly through continuation of the ability to speak Polish, knowledge of Polish customs and traditions.

the source is a site run by Polish lawyers in Poland.

So no, just walking into Poland and claiming "I'm a Polish citizen cuz my mom was" is not good enough.


Harry Threads: 100
Posts: 13,679
Joined: May 2, 2007
  ♂ Jul 15, 2009, 06:28pm  #

z_darius:
And yet you wrote about grandparents before I even knew about this thread.

a) No I didn't.
b) So what? We were still discussing a very specific person, i.e. Kos88.


z_darius:
A person born outside Poland has to claim the Polish citizenship and the decision has to be made.

Again, that is completely untrue. Google the phrase "passport trap" for details.


z_darius:
the source is a site run by Polish lawyers in Poland.

Marvellous. This source is the Law on Citizenship (1962, as amended 2007). "SECTION 2 - ACQUISITION OF POLISH CITIZENSHIP

Art. 4. The acquisition of Polish citizenship by birth occurs when:

1) both parents are Polish citizens, or

2) when only one of them is a Polish citizen and the other is unknown or his/her citizenship is undetermined or he/she has no citizenship.

Art. 5. When both parents are unknown or their citizenship is undetermined, or they have no citizenship, their child shall acquire Polish citizenship only if it is born or was found on Polish territory.

Art. 6. 1. The child of parents, one of whom is a Polish citizen and the other a citizen of another state, acquires Polish citizenship by birth. However the parents can, within three months from the child's birth, submit to a competent authority their concordant declaration stating that they choose for their child the citizenship of the foreign state of which one of the parents is a citizen, if under the law of the foreign state, that child will acquire its citizenship."

Note how place of birth is entirely irrelevent to a child born to at least one Polish parent? Looks like you might want to find a new law firm.


gjene Threads: 12
Posts: 156
Joined: May 4, 2008
  ♂ Jul 27, 2009, 12:52am  #

Also, check into the website known as 'EasyExpat'. Look under forums for Immigration to Poland. In there you will find 3 different postings on the citizenship acts of 1920/1951/1962.
There is also 3 parts to the age old question about Polish citizenship. The first 2 are closed to any further postings, but still can be read. The 3rd is open to reading and posting of questions on inheritance through bloodlines of citizenship.
You will also find in this forum as to who may be the better legal representative for you in regards to applying for citizenship or in getting the needed documents for you and then applying on your behalf.
My posting of this information is not to put this section of this website down. It is just to inform people that there is another website, that has more information on this topic than maybe people that are the moderators or members of this website may know.


BevK Threads: 17
Posts: 277
Joined: Mar 20, 2009
  ♀ Dec 26, 2009, 04:28am  #

What actual benefits are there to, say, a UK born person who definitely has eligibility? I know for sure that I have, as I've got my Dad's documents with me, he did not renounce his Polish nationality.

I can see the benefit for non EU people, is there anything I would gain from going through the process?


delphiandomine Threads: 60
Posts: 14,430
Joined: Nov 25, 2008
  ♂ :-( Edited by: delphiandomine  Dec 26, 2009, 05:24am  #

BevK:
I can see the benefit for non EU people, is there anything I would gain from going through the process?

From a practical point of view, having Polish citizenship and thus an ID card is much more convenient than having to lug around a British passport. Much cheaper to renew, too! You can also use the ID card for intra-EU travel.

You can also vote in Polish elections.

What else? Hmm.. could be useful in some parts of the world to be Polish and not British.

And there's no guarantee that the UK won't leave the EU.


Amathyst Threads: 28
Posts: 3,754
Joined: Nov 10, 2006
 Photos: 2  ♀ Edited by: Amathyst  Dec 26, 2009, 04:34pm  #

delphiandomine:
ID card is much more convenient than having to lug around a British passport.

Its not exactly a case of lugging it is now...besides, can a Pole hold a British passport and a Polish passport? If not, Id say a British one is better from a view of if you like to travel, less visa restrictions with a British passport.

delphiandomine:
What else? Hmm.. could be useful in some parts of the world to be Polish and not British.

Where? Why?

delphiandomine:
And there's no guarantee that the UK won't leave the EU.

I can only but dream we will leave, but I think we all know this is never going to happen and even if we do, it wont make any difference, there are plenty of British companies around the world who have set up shop, do you honestly think our movement will be restricted? Ish dont think so!


lowfunk99 Threads: 18
Posts: 429
Joined: Jan 7, 2008
  ♂ Dec 26, 2009, 05:25pm  #

Who is the best person to contact for this? I don't have any Polish documents but I can find the ships they come over to the US on.


BevK Threads: 17
Posts: 277
Joined: Mar 20, 2009
  ♀ Dec 26, 2009, 06:35pm  #

Amathyst:
Its not exactly a case of lugging it is now...besides, can a Pole hold a British passport and a Polish passport? If not, Id say a British one is better from a view of if you like to travel, less visa restrictions with a British passport.

Well technically it is the other way around, on paper at least I am British but I am as much Polish as British and I've never felt "British" ... you can have an ID card anyway as far as I know without actually renouncing your passport, but I guess more than anything I should do this so then I can make sense of feeling like I "belong" here, which I definitely do feel :)


md85255 Threads: -
Posts: 1
Joined: Jan 2, 2010
  ♂ Jan 2, 2010, 04:57am  #

My husband's grandparents were born in Lodz Poland but immigrated to USA prior to 1920, would he be able qualify for polish citizenship?


delphiandomine Threads: 60
Posts: 14,430
Joined: Nov 25, 2008
  ♂ :-( Jan 2, 2010, 08:38am  #

Amathyst:
Its not exactly a case of lugging it is now...besides, can a Pole hold a British passport and a Polish passport? If not, Id say a British one is better from a view of if you like to travel, less visa restrictions with a British passport.

Yes, of course they can.

The list of visa restrictions is tiny - apart from the big one, the USA, there really isn't much difference. In fact, if you like to go to more obscure places, it can be argued that a Polish passport is much safer.

And it's far more convenient to carry around a small card in Europe than to have to look after a passport. As for identifying yourself in Europe, the ID card is far more convenient than having to take your passport everywhere.

Amathyst:
Where? Why?

Plenty of hatred towards Britain in many parts of the world.

Amathyst:
I can only but dream we will leave, but I think we all know this is never going to happen and even if we do, it wont make any difference, there are plenty of British companies around the world who have set up shop, do you honestly think our movement will be restricted? Ish dont think so!

Well, having seen the way that the EU is policing the Eastern border, I wouldn't want to be stuck in the non-EU line. They are becoming *very* thorough in checking out non-EU citizens at passport control within Schengen - and I think most Brits would be utterly appalled to learn that they have to go through thorough checks just to go for a weekend to Paris.

Britain won't leave because she gains too much from it, no matter how people would like to twist it.


applemilk Threads: -
Posts: 1
Joined: Jan 19, 2010
  ♂ Jan 19, 2010, 06:30pm  #

Jan 19, 10, 18:58 - Thread attached on merging:
Polish Citizenship

Hi. I'm wondering about polish citizenship.

All my grandparents were Polish (bar one babcia born in germany, potentially one dziadek in belarus, or some place else, due to border changes and such around the time of birth), but all lived in Poland for many years, before coming to England after World War 2.

My dad and mum were born here (manchester, england), and my dad is considering citizenship too. I was born here also.

Any pointers as to whether my dad and I would be eligible? My dad's only concern for me would be national service, but I've heard that is being faded out for 2010 (may or may not be true.)

Any advice on the matter? Dziękuje bardzo!


Naughty   Jan 19, 2010, 10:47pm  #

I'm sorry, but according to Polish law, in order to be naturalised as Polish citizen, one will have to renounce any other citizenship. Check it on Wikipedia under 'Polish nationality law'.


LewisPilot2013 Threads: -
Posts: 6
Joined: Aug 9, 2010
  ♂ Aug 27, 2010, 09:36am  #

lukasw23:
I have a lot of experience in this filed as I have worked in the Consulate of Poland in the US.


I have a question for you...I am an American citizen, born in America, but my mother is still a Polish citizen and my father is an american citizen. This does make me a Polish citizen correct? If so, if I wanted to obtain a Polish passport, do I need to show confirmation of citizenship? My mother has her Polish passport...although it is expired. Is that enough proof?


PolishNate Threads: -
Posts: 2
Joined: Dec 1, 2010
  ♂ Dec 1, 2010, 07:00am  #

I've been looking through this Forum and it seems that you would be the person who would probably be able to help me the most. I live near LA and I have to go to the Polish consulate, I know. However since I can't take a day off from work at the moment, I was hoping you might be able to help me.

I wanted to know, what type of proof they ask for when you have to prove ancestral relative link to someone of full Polish decent? My grandmother's mother was born here however her parents weren't. So it would have been my great great grandmother that was born in Poland. Do I have to gain access to her birth certificate and then my great grandmother's and then my grandmother's and then my mothers?

I know you said this endeavor would be very expensive, where do most of the costs come from? Can you help me with any pointers?

Thank you!


delphiandomine Threads: 60
Posts: 14,430
Joined: Nov 25, 2008
  ♂ :-( Edited by: delphiandomine  Dec 1, 2010, 01:49pm  #

PolishNate:
My grandmother's mother was born here however her parents weren't. So it would have been my great great grandmother that was born in Poland. Do I have to gain access to her birth certificate and then my great grandmother's and then my grandmother's and then my mothers?


You're not eligible - your great great grandmother wouldn't have been a Polish citizen, because Poland wouldn't have existed at the time of her birth. Ancestry doesn't count alone. For what it's worth, even if there is entitlement, your grandmother has to claim her Polish citizenship before you can attempt to do so.

But I think it's almost certain that your great-great-grandmother would have been stripped of any citizenship at some point.

If you want, I can point you towards a Polish lawyer who speaks fluent English who can deal with such cases, but be warned - it's not going to be a cheap process.


Softsong Threads: 6
Posts: 573
Joined: Sep 2, 2007
 Photos: 1  ♀ Dec 1, 2010, 03:38pm  #

Yes, Delph is correct, your ancestor probably was not a citizen of Poland, and cannot pass citizenship along. That is the case with my Polish ancestors.

But, my German ancestors did have Polish citizenship, so I've thought about doing this, as well.
Maybe a lawyer can see a way though.

If I remember correctly, you have to have one grandparent who is Polish, or two great grand parents for it to work out. Good luck.


jcholewa   May 8, 2011, 10:03pm  #

I have a question about polish citizenship. My dad's grandparents (my great-grandparents) immigrated from Poland. I was wondering if I am still qualified for Polish citizenship if I was adopted at birth by my Polish father? I don't have Polish blood but my birth certificate has my Polish father's name on it and I legally have always had a Polish surname.


delphiandomine Threads: 60
Posts: 14,430
Joined: Nov 25, 2008
  ♂ :-( May 8, 2011, 10:35pm  #

jcholewa:
I have a question about polish citizenship. My dad's grandparents (my great-grandparents) immigrated from Poland. I was wondering if I am still qualified for Polish citizenship if I was adopted at birth by my Polish father? I don't have Polish blood but my birth certificate has my Polish father's name on it and I legally have always had a Polish surname.


Does your father have Polish citizenship?


jcholewa   May 8, 2011, 11:00pm  #

He doesn't know and neither do I. I was reading earlier posts about it not mattering if he was born in the US or not that because he has Polish blood he automatically has polish citizenship?


delphiandomine Threads: 60
Posts: 14,430
Joined: Nov 25, 2008
  ♂ :-( May 8, 2011, 11:04pm  #

jcholewa:
He doesn't know and neither do I. I was reading earlier posts about it not mattering if he was born in the US or not that because he has Polish blood he automatically has polish citizenship?


Not true. Polish blood doesn't mean a damn thing - what matters is the actual citizenship.

However, if the great-grandparents left Poland before 1962 and gained a foreign citizenship before 1962 - then they were stripped of Polish citizenship. As in Polish law (consistently since 1918) - citizenship is passed from the parents (or just the father, depending on circumstances) - there needs to be a clear trail of citizenship from the great-grandparents to you.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's exceptionally unlikely that your father has Polish citizenship - and with it, you.

If you can confirm when your great-grandparents moved from Poland and when (and where) your grandparents were born, I'll tell you for certain as to what the situation is.


jcholewa   May 8, 2011, 11:07pm  #

Okay thanks :) .... and maybe you should delete some of the previous posts if they are giving false info! :P



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