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Polish noble origins information

posts: 18

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Nov 23, 09, 03:37 #1

I have paid a professional researcher to research my surname in Poland. He has done an outstanding job and with his research I was able to contact living relatives in Poland and the U.K. , however I have come to a little bit of a roadblock. The records do not go back further than 1808 (LDS). The earliest record I could find was for my G G G Grandfather. Antoni Skibniewski married to Apolonia (maiden unknown) My researcher discovered that my family based on records he found and has provided me were szlachta. He suggested looking in Grodzkie or ziemskie books for further research before this date. He explained it is risky because it is time consuming and there are no guaranteed results.

My question to all is are there other sources that anyone knows of other than these books to find out more information regarding noble origins. The reason I ask is I believe my family moved to Podbilko from another area around 1820-1826 because there is a large gap (no information) from 1808 - 1826 in the LDS records. Granted it is possible that Antoni did not have a large family or that he was the youngest of many and the records just don't exist for his siblings but based on the reseach it seems my family tended to knock kids out like there was nothing else to do on a saturday night. I believe there is a record out there somewhere which will lead me to where my family origionally became szlachta or at least where, so I may attempt further research in that area.

I have looked on the web and found what clan I belonged to but no links to my family yet.

TyckiThreads: 4 Posts: 9 Joined: Oct 24, 09 ♀	Dec 2, 09, 00:53 #2
I share your frustration, having come up against dead ends in my search for leads for the Uniatycki family also of noble origins. Still trying to get info. before bringing in a researcher, however I'd be interested to know how much researchers charge for their time and recommendations.

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Dec 2, 09, 01:47 #3

Hi!
Going back to the time when your family become nobles will be very hard becouse it happened probably from XIII to XV century when more wealthy people which could equip themselves with a horse an a sword become knights and due to their role in defending country were given political an economical benefits. Later the the nobility became very closed group. King could give nobility to certain people but it was rather rare (a few thousands from XVI till XVIII century given mostly to foreigners)...
But being a noble in Poland then was something completely different than in other countries. It ment only having political benefits (right to vote in parliament elections and king's elections), personal freedom, and the right to own land (and some more) but nobility had nothing in common with wealth - you could walk barefoot and leave in a burrow but because your grand-grand-grandfather was a knight you was a noble with your coat of arms etc.. and had all those rights mentioned above.
In XVIII th century about 10% of whole society was nobility (which means 2 mln of people) of which 50 % owned only a small plot of land where they lived as farmers ploughing the land themselves with their only horse, next 40% owned only one or a few villages with peasants and also regarded themselves as farmers who had a luck that the free workers in form of slave-peasants could help them in the field. Only the last 10% could be regarded as wealthy people.
In the regions of Mazovia and Podlasie as much as 70% of inhabitants were poor nobles when the Poland was partitioned they've lost their political benefits and become from economical point of view undistinguishable from peasants. Only their names (ending with -ski, -cki etc.- look most popular Polish name endings!) and their family stories about their ancestors could give a clue about their origin. Many of those (also big part of my family - Załęscy) emigrated in XIX and early XX cenury to USA, Canada or Brazil...
But still today you will find those "poor nobles villages" (zaścianki) especially between Łomża, Ostrów Mazowiecka and Łapy. There are many willages with funny long names with dashes like Rutki-Janki, Rutki-Zalesie etc. and still in those willages most common name is Rutkowski (in Zawady Zawadzki, in Suche Sucecki etc.) and names after dashes are the names or nicknames of the sons who took this part of the village after it was partitioned between all brothers.

Regards

Łukasz

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Dec 2, 09, 02:02 #4

The researcher I used charged $20.00 US. per hour of research. He came highly reccommended. I decided to contact persons he had worked for in the past as I have heard rumors of non ethical practices regarding other researchers. If you have accurate information regarding births of previous descendants, He can do alot. Most of the research done for me was done through the archives of Stary Luboten. It was rather simple for me as my name was the only family using this surname in the district. Archive research is tedious because most of the records are in Russian. I don't speak Polish or Russian so my researcher was invaluable in that regard. I could have taken a trip over there and stumbled through translations or tried to order the LDS microfilms (which we did anyway cause it is more practical when I wanted copies of documents) and tried to work through them myself. I decided to do things the more expedient way. I have discovered 4 generations on my grandmothers side of family Zadrozny. and 2 generations on my grandfathers side of the family. Skibniewski You really have to base your decisions on time and how much your willing to spend. I personelly am happy with the results but because of Emil's research I was able to contact living cousins in POland and the UK. I never knew I had. I have 35 living cousins living abroad. This information was invaluable to me.

The major problem for me was there is a large gap of time where there are no records of my family. 1808- 1824 This I assume means this is the time my family moved there from somewhere else. I have no idea where from? This is my problem. I want to go further back but am at a standstill. Any suggestions from anyone are welcome?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 2, 09, 02:28 #5
markskibniewski: The researcher I used charged $20.00 US. per hour of research. He came highly reccommended. I decided to contact persons he had worked for in the past as I have heard rumors of non ethical practices regarding other researchers. Could you e-mail me his details at office@lindenia.net please? We could do with a good contact in this field :)

dagenhamdave	Dec 2, 09, 08:37 #6
Could you e-mail me his details at office@lindenia.net please? We could do with a good contact in this field :) What, so you can put a mark-up on this guy's services when someone comes through you? Fantastic.

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Dec 2, 09, 09:46 #7

Thanks for your information, and I may well ask for the researchers details when I reach the stage of having birth certificates - but not for 'mark up' purposes! I believe we too have an unusual name, so your experience of that is encouraging. I'm in the UK and struggling to find an accurate and complete address' and email to get my Dad's birth certificate. Any clues on getting birth certificates would be appreciated. Good luck with your research.

markskibniewskiThreads: 4 Posts: 357 Joined: May 31, 09 ♂	Dec 2, 09, 18:41 #8
http://www.polishgenealogy.com.pl polishgenealogy@rubikon.pl is his page on the net.

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Dec 2, 09, 19:06 #9

Tycki
It is not necessary to have birth certificates just a birth date and town relative grew up in (born or baptised in). Obviously the more information you give him the more positive your results will be. Part of his research will be to make copies of birth, marriage, and death certificates and translate them for you. He will also do research before he even charges you at least that what he did for me. I had my grandfathers marriage certificate and from that the town where he grew up was retrieved. It was in Latin so he translated it for me.

Hiring a proffessional does not guarantee results but it certainly will expedite the process.

TyckiThreads: 4 Posts: 9 Joined: Oct 24, 09 ♀	Dec 3, 09, 00:55 #10
Many thanks. Emil's references are excellent, and this will be really helpful.

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Dec 3, 09, 16:03 #11

I cannot help you as to when and under what circumstances your ancestors entered the ranks of the gentry, but the noble Skibniewskis were entitled to use the Ślepowron coat of arms. It was said to have come into being when a Hungarian knight bearing the Korwin coat of arms married into the Pobóg clan and added the Pobóg (cavalier’s cross-topped horseshoe) emblem to his own which became known as Ślepowron. It depicts a black crow holding a ring in its beak and perched upon a gold cavalier’s cross adorning the back of a standing silver horseshoe against a blue shield. Accordng to some legends, the origin of the Korwin crest goes back to the times of the Roman Emperor Tiberius. During the campaign against the Franks a Roman soldier named Valessius Messala Corvinius was challenged to a duel by the Frankish warrior of legendary strength. During their combat a black raven landed on Corvinius’ helmet and began furiously pecking the startled pagan who was easily defeated. Ślepowron is among the most popular Polish coats of arms and is used by 529 noble families.

markskibniewskiThreads: 4 Posts: 357 Joined: May 31, 09 ♂	Dec 4, 09, 02:16 #12
Thank you for the post. I am aware of the general history of the Ślepowron clan. I did a little research on the subject. Does anyone know of any historians who may have done research on the clan itself. Not as much information as I would like to see on the net on the subject.

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Dec 4, 09, 10:56 #13

I saw a survey once that more Polish people than any other nation claimed they had blue blood in them.

TBH it is one of the snobby things I came across and did not like. I think it was down to communism and being elitist. People wanted to show that their poo did not smell ver the others.

Same as some Ukrianians saying they are Russians to blindly think they are better. Like we give a ****, we are all people.

TyckiThreads: 4 Posts: 9 Joined: Oct 24, 09 ♀	Dec 4, 09, 18:45 #14
There's a lot of people out there - neither Communist or elitist - just looking for answers about lost family from bits of information gleaned from relatives that quite often prefer to forget; some of which you have to take with a 'pinch of salt' until it's confirmed, good or bad, noble or ignoble who knows what you're going to find. So bear with us Wawkrak - we'd just like to know our roots.

markskibniewskiThreads: 4 Posts: 357 Joined: May 31, 09 ♂	Dec 6, 09, 15:33 #15
markskibniewski Tycki is right on. I am only interested in finding additional information regarding my family history. Anyone having information on any professionals or historians that specialize or are well versed in the Ślepowron clan would be a great help. I have been doing some research online and have found some interesting things. A branch of the Skibniewskich goes back to 1415.

spotashnyk

Jun 28, 10, 15:19 #16

I May have some info for you My Grandparents immigrated to Australia i think someone had already mentioned my grand mother in another post on Ukraine.com

I have their Naturalization documents when they landed in Australia

Bohdan (born 20/9/1912) and Anna Uniatycki (maiden name Sawkiw born 17/11/1921)

Happy to exchange information on the family name please email me directly at spotashnyk@gmail.com and i can email you the documentation i have.

I will be traveling to Ukraine in August and am trying to catch up Bohdan's sister who is apparently still alive i Met Anna's sisters daughter last year when i traveled there.

Hope to hear from you

nazar	Nov 26, 10, 19:09 #17
My family name Nazarewic/Nazarkiewicz holds szlachta "szeliga", could someone explain please what it means. This sclachta holds lot`s of surnames? I have googled it. Thanks for all help

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Nov 26, 10, 22:25 #18

wawkrak:

actually, it not really 'better' because there was so Many of Szlachta families. and in some regions they were given titles like social Welfare cards (for example in Latvia, many Latvians of all ancestrys - about half them being Germans, chose to accept the titles and subsequently be Polonized - this did not really make them 'better'. It was more like a life insurance/security document. There where many a Polish szlachta in Ukraine... by this I mean Ruthenians who spoke their own languages, but were officially 'Polish szlachta'.
Same in Lithuania (this why the Lithuanian Nazis are partly right that these people Are Polonized Lithuanians - but that is the Nazi way of looking at it, to me they are Poles thru & thru)

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