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Red Hair - recessive gene from Poland?

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olypstrksio   Mar 28, 2009, 11:44pm  #

Jampat about Vikings.... weell Tacitus (Romasn writer) mentions lots in N Britain many centuries before vikings came into Britain. BTW Scot genes are very very similar to irish genes so it was probably native also.



olypstrksio   Mar 28, 2009, 11:52pm  #

BTW Wiki article says Scots@ 13% but reference in article for it says Scots ( irish too) at up to10%


Calicoe Threads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 2008
  ♀ Edited by: Calicoe  Mar 29, 2009, 04:34am  #

Jampat:
The Vikings spreading the gene around makes a lot of sense, as red hair evolved in far north climates to deal with small amounts of Vitamin D, and the Vikings spread their gene pool around northern Europe quite a bit, through simple settlement or raping and pillaging. I know I got part of the recessive gene from my scots-irish side, and the Vikings had quite a bit of red hair too... and they invaded a lot of the baltic, and Poland too.

That's right. But, it wasn't only the Vikings who had red hair in the far north; some tribes out of Siberia on the western side of the Urals also had red hair. Red hair was also associated with Russian Jews early on in the very beginning of Kiev and Rus, going back to Kharzaria.

PennBoy:
Supposedly 30,000 Scottich families settled in Poland back in the 17th century, i havn't met any Scottish Poles, did they evaporate lol ?? of course not, they've gotten completly asimilated into Polish society, therefore if you meet a red headed Pole, he's probably got some Scottish in him.

Except that the incidence of red hair in Eastern Europe was apparent way before the 17th Century, and developed independently of the Viking invasion as well. If red hair evolved due to a lack of Vitamin D, then it only follows and is actually supported that Siberian tribes independent of the Vikings also had this evolutionary gene. *(But, who knows if it was completely independent, because Siberian tribes in the far east never developed the same gene. But, they all have some degree of the eye fold to protect the eye from the glare of the sun). Due to various migrations out of the far north and into Central Asia and Eastern Europe, it is not a big surprise that red gene also naturally occurs to a lesser degree in Eastern Europe.

As for the Celtics tribes, it is my understanding that their settlements also originated in Eastern Europe somewhere around where the Czech Republic is now, until they migrated west, terrorized Gaul and crumbling Roman Empire for awhile, and crossed over. I have also met a few Czechs who have red hair.

I'll look for my links somewhere. I have them buried somewhere because I was conducting research on my own heritage from Eastern Europe and saved them.

*Edit:

olypstrksio:
Jampat about Vikings.... weell Tacitus (Romasn writer) mentions lots in N Britain many centuries before vikings came into Britain.

Yeah, probably that too. Aren't there still places in England with Viking names?


Calicoe Threads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 2008
  ♀ Edited by: Calicoe  Mar 29, 2009, 05:33am  #

Ok, here are some quick links and excerpts (I couldn't find my other links at the moment, but these will do):

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html

"Origins. The Khazars were a Turkic people who originated in Central Asia. The early Turkic tribes were quite diverse, although it is believed that reddish hair was predominant among them prior to the Mongol conquests. In the beginning, the Khazars believed in Tengri shamanism, spoke a Turkic language, and were nomadic. Later, the Khazars adopted Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, learned Hebrew and Slavic, and became settled in cities and towns thruout the north Caucasus and Ukraine. The Khazars had a great history of ethnic independence extending approximately 800 years from the 5th to the 13th century. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Russia

Kievan Rus'

"Kievan Rus' in the 11th centuryMain article: Kievan Rus
Scandinavian Norsemen, called "Vikings" in Western Europe and "Varangians"[25] in the East, combined piracy and trade in their roamings over much of Northern Europe. In the mid-9th century, they began to venture along the waterways from the eastern Baltic to the Black and Caspian Seas.[26] According to the earliest Russian chronicle, a Varangian named Rurik was elected ruler (konung or knyaz) of Novgorod in about 860,[2] before his successors moved south and extended their authority to Kiev,[27] which had been previously dominated by the Khazars.[28]"

David Christian, A History of Russia, Central Asia and Mongolia, Blackwell Publishing, 1998, pp. 286–288. ISBN 0631208143.

http://www.geographia.com/russia/rushis02.htm

"The early history of Russia, like those of many countries, is one of migrating peoples and ancient kingdoms. In fact, early Russia was not exactly "Russia," but a collection of cities that gradually coalesced into an empire. I n the early part of the ninth century, as part of the same great movement that brough the Danes to England and the Norsemen to Western Europe, a Scandanavian people known as the Varangians crossed the Baltic Sea and landed in Eastern Europe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

"The historical Celts were a diverse group of tribal societies in Iron Age Europe. Proto-Celtic culture formed in the Early Iron Age in Central Europe (Hallstatt period, named for the site in present-day Austria). By the later Iron Age (La Tène period), Celts had expanded over a wide range of lands: as far west as Ireland and the Iberian Peninsula, as far east as Galatia (central Anatolia), and as far north as Scotland.[2]"

"By the early first millennium AD, following the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Great Migrations (Migration Period) of Germanic peoples, Celtic culture had become restricted to the British Isles (Insular Celtic), and the Continental Celtic languages ceased to be widely used by the sixth century."

"The Celtic languages form a branch of the larger Indo-European family. By the time speakers of Celtic languages enter history around 400 BC (Brennus's attack on Rome in 387 BC), they were already split into several language groups, and spread over much of Central Europe, the Iberian peninsula, Ireland and Britain."

http://www.redheads.ie/Origins-Red-Hair.htm

"Red hair is often assumed to have emerged with the Celts, but the gene for redheadedness existed long before the Celts came into being, at the start of the first millennium BC around the headwaters of the Rhine, the Rhone and the Danube. One theory is that red hair arrived in Europe with the Iranic-speaking steppe tribes who lived the areas north of and around the Black Sea from 4,000 years ago to the 6th century. Today, there is a surprising number of redheads in Afghanistan, Iran and the Urals, as well as in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is possible that this "Iranic" ginger trait was transferred to other populations, including the Celts, whose original hair color was various shades of brown and black in general."

http://www.viking.no/e/england/danelaw/index.html

"The Vikings took control of English villages and estates within The Danelaw. Often they established new villages. We know that Vikings did this because of the kinds of names given to the villages they established, and the new names given to existing English villages."


PennBoy Threads: 169
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 Photos: 2  ♂ Mar 29, 2009, 06:08am  #

Calicoe:
Except that the incidence of red hair in Eastern Europe was apparent way before the 17th Century, and developed independently of the Viking invasion as well

True, but it wasn't that Celtic shade of red, you know that almost orange red hair, Slavs were either blond of had this reddish-brown hair


osiol Threads: 59
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  ♂ Edited by: osiol  Mar 29, 2009, 06:12am  #

Isn't hair colour caused by the interplay of more than one gene? There are so many shades of hair colour and a limited range of things that one gene can actually do. Redness occurs in all parts of Europe to some extent and that doesn't just mean Scottish or Irish people spilt some genes there at some point in history.


Calicoe Threads: 1
Posts: 205
Joined: Aug 15, 2008
  ♀ Edited by: Calicoe  Mar 29, 2009, 06:25am  #

PennBoy:
True, but it wasn't that Celtic shade of red, you know that almost orange red hair, Slavs were either blond of had this reddish-brown hair

True, it is a different shade of hair color, but we are talking about origins and evolution of the first genes here. As for the origins of the red-haired gene, the jury is still out as to whether it originated from the Iranic tribes of the steppes or Neanderthals in Central Europe. But even going back as far as the Neanderthals, won't settle the argument of "purity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

"As for now, the expansion of the first anatomically modern humans into Europe can not be located by diagnostic and well-dated anatomically modern human fossils "west of the Iron Gates of the Danube" before 32 kya.[81] Consequently, the exact nature of biological and cultural interactions between Neanderthals and other human groups between 50 and 30 thousand years ago is currently hotly contested.[82] A new proposal resolves the issue by taking the Gravettians rather than the Aurignacians as the anatomically modern humans which contributed to the post-30 kya Eurasian genetic pool.[82] Correspondingly, the human skull fragment found at the Elbe River bank at Hahnöfersand near Hamburg was once radiocarbon dated to 36,000 years ago and seen as possible evidence for the intermixing of Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans. It is now dated to the more recent Mesolithic.[83]

Modern human findings in Abrigo do Lagar Velho, Portugal of 24,500 years ago, allegedly featuring Neanderthal admixtures, have been published.[84]"


Rafal_1981   Apr 1, 2009, 02:49pm  #

Randal:
We’re a discriminated minority! I demand special protections!

But this is good…

He goes on to say "redheads are most likely be successful in life." [57]

Red head are most likely to be successful in life because of the discrimination.


Cenowski Threads: -
Posts: 122
Joined: Mar 30, 2009
  ♂ Apr 1, 2009, 03:58pm  #

i was told by genetic studiers once that red hair is mostly distinct genetic deviation that can occur in celtic genetics, sounds like sounds offensive i guess but i have ehard many time all over from some people so if its just so then its so i guess, it does explain most of the gingers people areas of populations, mainly where celts still exsist, scotland, Ireland, wales, south west side of uk


Randal Threads: 1
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  ♂ Apr 1, 2009, 04:58pm  #

Rafal_1981:
Red head are most likely to be successful in life because of the discrimination.

Why? It drives us to succeed? Maybe we're discriminted against because we're successful?


Cenowski Threads: -
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Joined: Mar 30, 2009
  ♂ Apr 1, 2009, 05:00pm  #

better be carfull with comments like that, people will start treating like the masons society


Rafal_1981   Apr 1, 2009, 05:46pm  #

Randal:
Why? It drives us to succeed? Maybe we're discriminted against because we're successful?

Simple:
What does not kill you, will only make you stronger.

Discrimination can either drives you to success or 'kill you'.

Those who survive are the ones that adapt or 'fit' best and quickly to their environment.


miranda   Apr 1, 2009, 05:49pm  #

Rafal_1981:
What does not kill you, will only make you stronger.

is usually not strong enough to kill you;)
Rafal_1981:
Discrimination can either drives you to success or 'kill you'.

or kill the opponent. I usually go for the kill;)


Randal Threads: 1
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Joined: Feb 14, 2009
  ♂ Edited by: Randal  Apr 1, 2009, 06:11pm  #

Rafal_1981:
What does not kill you, will only make you stronger.

Discrimination can either drives you to success or 'kill you'.

Those who survive are the ones that adapt or 'fit' best and quickly to their environment.

Hmm.

I’m not particularly successful. I do ok, I’m not complaining, but I wouldn’t say I was unusually successful by the usual measures as compared to brownheads or others.

I think that through the years I have indeed experienced a degree of discrimination due to my red hair. See, having red hair is not as common here as it is in places like Scotland, we’re seen as a bit of a novelty. As a kid I was teased some and authority figures maybe saw me as trouble. Lol… Even as an adult in the working world I think it is a distraction and it causes people to maybe not take you as seriously. My youthful appearance which makes me look years younger than my actual age doesn’t help here either. But I’ve been able to overcome and assert my professionalism and earn respect.

So maybe this discrimination has indeed caused me to strive some? I never really thought about it before now.

But you still don’t hear us bitching and whining about being discriminated against –real or imagined- like we constantly hear other minority groups. We suck it up! Us Reds are tough!

And we do have to be more conscious of clothing color choices than others do! It’s like having a built in clashing device! Lol…


Jampat Threads: 1
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Joined: Mar 17, 2009
  ♀ Apr 2, 2009, 02:38am  #

Well it seems possible that I got one side of the recessive combination from Poland... it seems like no one is really sure where red hair originated from or it originated from several places. As for discrimination... I really havn't faced any other than being jokingly called a ginger by my friends. It might have something to do with living in a part of the world with a very high concentration of scots-irish people, or the fact that picking on a 6'1 broad shouldered man isn't the best idea.


lareincestmoi   Apr 6, 2009, 04:03am  #

aBSOLUTELY YOUR RED HAIR COMES FROM POLAND. There's only 4 places in the world where red hair occurs naturally-England, Scotland, Ireland and Persia-Iran. When you research the history of the peoples who swept through Poland AND BIOLOGICALLY SETTLED THERE-the Magyas, Khazars, KabaRs-it turns out the Khazras/Kabars had RED HAIR


Veelacrosse   May 11, 2009, 07:01am  #

I'm a redhead and I have extremely tolerant to pain. I'm partially insensitive to pain. (fully insensitive means you can't feel pain at all.) I'm mostly polish and a tiny bit english, maybe irish.


lookingformyfam   Jun 9, 2009, 06:21am  #

My Grandmother was Polish with striking red hair. I have brown hair with natural red highlights.


Crash   Aug 17, 2009, 06:43pm  #

I remember a recent study showing that the gene for red hair occured within the last 10,000 years toward the end of the ice age. If that is true, then you are likely descended from this person. The fact that certain populations have red hair (the picts, scots and irish, etc.) is meaningless if the gene originated at a time when ice covered most of Europe.

It is possible, however, that since you are Scottish and Polish, that you happened to get your red hair from your Scottish ancestry by way of Poland. During the 16th and 17th century, tens of thousands of Scots came to Poland to work (try googling "Scots In Poland"). There are a lot of Poles with Scottish blood.


hancock Threads: 1
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Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂ Nov 2, 2009, 03:09pm  #

Nov 15, 09, 02:02 - Thread attached on merging:
How Many People with Red Hair in Poland.

Who could guess how many people may have red hair in poland.


Lodz_The_Boat Threads: 58
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  ♂ Edited by: Lodz_The_Boat  Nov 2, 2009, 03:12pm  #

I got... more like auburn....


hancock Threads: 1
Posts: 115
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂ Nov 2, 2009, 03:29pm  #

It seems the country with the most red hair In the world is Scotland. Excepting USA.
They imported all of theirs from everywhere else.


Shellie Threads: 2
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Joined: Oct 24, 2009
  ♀ Nov 15, 2009, 01:43am  #

My Polish ancestors from the Nowy Targ area had red hair.
Last name Kadłub, or Kadlub. I heard there is a village called Kadłub, but I don't know anyone of my ancestors being from there.


Seanus Threads: 21
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  ♂ Nov 15, 2009, 01:46am  #

I have red hair and I am in Poland. I am Scottish though :)


osiol Threads: 59
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  ♂ Nov 15, 2009, 01:47am  #

There's already a thread about this somewhere. I know this because I started it. That was before I learnt that some (perhaps many) Polish people pinch themselves when they see a ginger because they're supposed to bring bad luck.


galwayman Threads: 2
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Joined: Aug 3, 2009
  ♂ Nov 15, 2009, 05:15pm  #

Im Irish - and i can tell you now that if your a red head " Ginger" its
Scots - Irish .

Plus - the Flying Geese came to help Poland in the 16th Century.
Irish Army !!


LAGirl Threads: 10
Posts: 587
Joined: Apr 11, 2008
  ♀ Nov 16, 2009, 09:38pm  #

I have a friend from Poland he had reddish orange hair and freckles and very white he looks so much Irish he tells me that on St Paddys day he gets free drinks from the bars here.


jasinski Threads: 14
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  ♂ Nov 19, 2009, 10:32pm  #

ive wondered that too, about some poles being red haired. There was scottish immigration to poland. i cant remember when exactly it was, but iam pretty sure it was during the commonwealth. poland had a high number of scottish immigrants. this could have something to do with it.


TheOther Threads: 7
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  ♂ Nov 19, 2009, 10:39pm  #

jasinski:
There was scottish immigration to poland

There was a Scottish immigration to Prussia:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/prussia/index.htm
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/germany/scotsndx.htm


jasinski Threads: 14
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Joined: Nov 19, 2009
  ♂ Nov 20, 2009, 12:02am  #

yes your right. it was when prussia was a part of the polish commonwealth. the northern lands along with pomerania, livonia i think often changed hands. So prussia was polands at different times. And the scottish immigrants were there during atleast one of those times.very early sixteen hundreds



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