Are Scandanavians a mix between Polish & Iberian stock?

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Edited by: PolskiMoc Jul 1, 11, 14:15 #1

I think Daniel Gabriel Alessandro Saucedo Grzechowski looks very Swedish. He was born in Sweden. But he is of Polish & Bolivian roots.
He must be of Iberian Bolivian Roots or else he would not have turned out so light.

But, Danny does have a very classic Scandanavian Nordic look. He has a mix of Polish & Iberian features. He has some of the Polish eye & cheek bones & yet some of the more thin facial features & close cut jaw lines & Jaws that many Iberians & Swedes have.
There are some pictures of him in this video.
[youtube=null]

The Genetic evidence really does support that Scandanavians are a mix of people who came from Poland mixed with people who came from Iberia.

For Example the R1a haplogroup in Scandanavia which is quite high comes from Poland as Poland has the highest R1a in Europe.

While the I1 haplogroup in Scandanavia apparently comes from Iberia. The Latest genetic research suggests I1 haplogroup common in Scandanavia started in Iberia.
That R1b haplogroup in Scandanavia also is thought to have spread from Iberia.

I uploaded 2 maps below.

#1 photo on the left is the spread of the Haplogroups in Europe.

#2 photo on the right is a map of the cephalic index in Europe which shows links in cephalic index in Scandanavia similar to Iberia & North Africa.

It has long been held that Polish & Russian / Slavic stock are a mix of Scandanavian.'
But, The evidence actually supports the opposite that Scandanavians are a mix of Slavic type stock with an Iberian type stock.

Here I posted the links because they don't post well

1#
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Cedo2_2010/MapoflateNeolithi candearlyBronzeAgeculturesinEuropefromapproximately5000to4500yearsago. jpg

The Blue in Western Europe in this map is I1 haplogroup common in Scandanavia today.
So this map directly shows how R1a people from Poland & I1 people originally from Iberia moved in to Scandanavia to create Scandanavians.

2#
http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troemap6.jpg

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Jul 1, 11, 14:19 #2
and your point is?

PolskiMocThreads: 7 Posts: 488 Joined: Mar 15, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: PolskiMoc Jul 1, 11, 14:21 #3
aphrodisiac: and your point is? What is the point of anything then? I think it is good because it shows that Scandanavians are actually a mix between Polish & Iberian stock. Not the myth often told by Western Europeans especially Germanics which say that Poles & Other slavs that are blonde are Viking & Germanic left overs. Which is far from the truth. It is rather the opposite.

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Edited by: PolskiMoc Jul 1, 11, 14:43 #4

delphiandomine:

That PolskiMoc spends his days masturbating with his circumcised penis over pictures of Scandinavian men?

No, I actually searched for Sasha Strunin music videos when I found Sasha Strunin with Danny Saucedo & I found it interesting that Danny really doesn't look very Polish or Spaniard.

He really looks like a Swede. He is from Sweden but not of Swedish ethnicity.

Well, the genetic evidence does support that Scandanavians are a mix of Iberian & Polish stock.

So, I felt like posting this.

Lyzko

Jul 1, 11, 14:44 #5

This topic concerning the cross-pollination, so to speak, of cultures throughout Europe (and beyond), like all such endeavors, is fraught with misinformation and often plain nonsense! True enough, languages though their speakers DO migrate, often from considerable distances, e.g. the Uralic speakers to the Hungarian Basin, the ancestors of the Basques to Northern Spain etc.. To suggest though, for example, that because a Pole "looks Swedish" or that a Navarran appears "Germanic" etc. that this is irrefutable evidence, say, of a Polish-Iberian-Scandinavian connection, would seem to be anyway just a little over the top-:)

DNA evidence has in fact shown that blond, light-skinned travelers did in fact reach the Gobi Desert even before Marco Polo, in the matter of the present thread, I definitely need to see more!!

alexw68	Edited by: alexw68 Jul 1, 11, 14:46 #6
PolskiMoc: Well, the genetic evidence does support that Scandanavians are a mix of Iberian & Polish stock. According to tests conducted on the passengers and crew of LOT flight 1134 from Warsaw to Malaga (diverted to Malmo for undisclosed operational reasons). @Lyszko: exactly, spot on, but but this is @PolskiMocz we are dealing with here. Pearls before swine, sadly.

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Edited by: PolskiMoc Jul 1, 11, 14:52 #7

Lyzko:

of a Polish-Iberian-Scandinavian connection, would seem to be anyway just a little over the top-:)

There are some links from the Polish side for sure.
Such as the first Kurgan found was 6,000 years old in Poland
While a 3,000 year old Kurgan was found in Sweden.

This is part of the Cordedware culture that was in Poland, Russia, East & North Germany & Southern Scandanavia.

Which shows a direct link of Sweden with Poland in their prehistory.

The Iberian part is much more of a gray area.

For awhile it was thought that I1 haplogroup may have come from & started in the Ukraine.

But, the most recent genetic research suggests that the I1 haplogroup common in Scandanavia actually came from Iberia.

Which kind of fits to why Danny Saucedo looks like a Swede so much when he is a mix of Polish & Bolivian (Spanish)

Lyzko:

DNA evidence has in fact shown that blond, light-skinned travelers did in fact reach the Gobi Desert even before Marco Polo, in the matter of the present thread, I definitely need to see more!!

Yes, There are the Tocharian Tarim basin mummies in Western China who were often Blonde & Red haired. The Chinese also depicted them as Blonde & Red haired with Light eyes.

Central Asians have direct roots in Poland actually. (But they later mixed with Mongolian type stock) this is why you see some Tatars & Uzbeks & Other Central Asians ect that sometimes look kind of Slavic & Sometimes kind of Mongolian.

The genetic evidence shows the R1a haplogroup in Poland directly spread from Poland into Central Asia a few thousand years ago.
These people were thought to be Indo-Europeans who likely bought the Indo-European language to India.

But, It is all so complex.

♂

Jul 1, 11, 15:11 #8

PolskiMoc:

Central Asians have direct roots in Poland actually.

No they don't.

PolskiMoc:

The genetic evidence shows the R1a haplogroup in Poland directly spread from Poland into Central Asia a few thousand years ago.
These people were thought to be Indo-Europeans who likely bought the Indo-European language to India.

Pointless and untrue.

Lyzko:

This topic concerning the cross-pollination, so to speak, of cultures throughout Europe (and beyond), like all such endeavors, is fraught with misinformation and often plain nonsense!

Very much so - it's dangerous to assume cultural (and cultic) practices and innovations are inseparable from genetic descent.

alexw68:

this is @PolskiMocz we are dealing with here. Pearls before swine, sadly.

Indeed.

delphiandomine:

PolskiMoc spends his days masturbating

Looks that way.

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Jul 1, 11, 15:19 #9

JonnyM:

No they don't.
PolskiMoc: The genetic evidence shows the R1a haplogroup in Poland directly spread from Poland into Central Asia a few thousand years ago.
These people were thought to be Indo-Europeans who likely bought the Indo-European language to India.

Pointless and untrue.

The earliest expansion time for R-M458 is found in Poland (10.7ky), but since the paper uses the effective mutation rate that I criticized elsewhere, this date should be divided by a factor of 3 giving an age of 3.6ky. This matches quite well the age for the Balto-Slavic split according to Gray and Atkinson. As with the recent paper on J-P58, adopting the germline rate makes excellent sense.

If R-M458 had started expanding 10.7ky ago, then by the time of the early dispersals of Kurgan groups east, it would have been present among them, and we would expect to find it east of the Urals and in the Near East/Central/South Asia. To reconcile this age with the archaeological picture of west-east movements across the steppe seems impossible. However, the situation resolves itself neatly when we realize that J-P58 is only 3-4 thousand years old, and was not in existence at the time of the Kurgan expansion.

alexw68

Edited by: alexw68 Jul 1, 11, 15:23 #10

PolskiMoc:

If R-M458 had started expanding 10.7ky ago, then by the time of the early dispersals of Kurgan groups east, it would have been present among them, and we would expect to find it east of the Urals and in the Near East/Central/South Asia. To reconcile this age with the archaeological picture of west-east movements across the steppe seems impossible. However, the situation resolves itself neatly when we realize that J-P58 is only 3-4 thousand years old, and was not in existence at the time of the Kurgan expansion.

Is this the most plagiarised paragraph on the internet? I only ask:

http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=then+by+the+ti me+of+the+early+dispersals+of+Kurgan+groups+east&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gl= uk

@PolskiMocz: If you can't be bothered to accredit other people's stuff - however off-beam it may or may not be - and it is clearly copied, then the only conclusion we can draw is that you are a brainless cut-and-paste troll.

♂

Edited by: JonnyM Jul 1, 11, 15:23 #11

PolskiMoc:

The earliest expansion time for R-M458 is found in Poland (10.7ky), but since the paper uses the effective mutation rate that I criticized elsewhere, this date should be divided by a factor of 3 giving an age of 3.6ky. This matches quite well the age for the Balto-Slavic split according to Gray and Atkinson. As with the recent paper on J-P58, adopting the germline rate makes excellent sense.

Which is both pointless and bad science. There is no evidence that Central Asian culture (or people) 'spread from' Poland, which didn't exist in any form whatsoever in the time frame you are trying to talk about.

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Jul 1, 11, 15:29 #12

JonnyM:

Which is both pointless and bad science. There is no evidence that Central Asian culture (or people) 'spread from' Poland, which didn't exist in any form whatsoever in the time frame you are trying to talk about.

Central Asians used Kurgan Burial mounds in their culture.

The Oldest Kurgan is found in Poland.

There are multiple links.

Another one is the invention of the wheeled vehical.

The First evidence of a wheeled wagon is the Bronocice pot 5,500 yrs old in Southenr Poland

Then by 5,300 yrs ago there is a wheeled cart found in the Yamna culture in the Ukraine

by 4,600 yrs ago there are the first true chariots found in the Sintiasha culture closely related to the Andronovo culture in Central Russia.
These Sintiasha peopple are considered to be proto Indo-Iranians

There is the genetic evidence of the Andronovo culture most of them were light with European R1a genes. The Oldest R1a in Europe is found in Poland

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one C haplogroup (xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.

90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.[6]

A 2004 study also established that during the Bronze Age/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the 13th-7th century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages

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Edited by: JonnyM Jul 1, 11, 15:38 #13

PolskiMoc:

Central Asians used Kurgan Burial mounds in their culture.

The Oldest Kurgan is found in Poland.

There are multiple links.

Another one is the invention of the wheeled vehical.

The First evidence of a wheeled wagon is the Bronocice pot 5,500 yrs old in Southenr Poland

Then by 5,300 yrs ago there is a wheeled cart found in the Yamna culture in the Ukraine

by 4,600 yrs ago there are the first true chariots

Pure speculation and bad history as well as bad science. To relate something that happened "by 4,600 years ago" to Poland is bizarre, misleading and untruthful. "Ther (sic) are multiple links" between all cultures in that period,not just the two you pluck from thin air. Nothing to do with Poland, and to make some wild claim that" Central Asian culture spread from Poland" on the basis of some unreliable hypothesis about the Kurgans (who were not Polish) is sheer comedy.

Stick to writing about your Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder - it's something you obviously actually know about.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Jul 1, 11, 15:40 #14
PolskiMoc: Are Scandanavians a mix between Polish & Iberian stock? according to this forum, everyone is mixed with Poles.

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Edited by: PolskiMoc Jul 1, 11, 15:43 #15

JonnyM:

Pure speculation and bad history as well as bad science. To relate something that happened "by 4,600 years ago" to Poland is bizarre, misleading and untruthful. "Ther are multiple links" between all cultures in that period. Nothing to do with Poland, and to make some wild claim that" Central Asian culture spread from Poland" (sic) on the basis of some unreliable hypothesis about the Kurgans (who were not Polish) is sheer comedy.

It shows that the oldest evidence of a Wagon is in Poland of the Broncice pot & then 200 years later it is found in the Ukraine & then 800 years after the Bronocice pot in Central Russian Androno culture.

That gives evidence of a West to East movement from Poland.

There is also the First Kurgan found in Poland & then later in Central Asia Kurgans are found.

Then there is the evidence of the R1a in the Andronovo being of a European orgin which European R1a is oldest in Poland.

There are multiple links.

It is all just "Theory" We were not there to fully witness it.

I never said I am 100 percent sure either.

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,142 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Edited by: sobieski Jul 1, 11, 15:46 #16
According to OP, everybody and everything worthwhile in Europe is 1.Polish 2. Polish originated 3.Polish influenced. Interesting thesis. What about the Serbs - they have been forgotten somewhere :) Are you sure the battle of Salamis was not fought by Poles?

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Jul 1, 11, 15:47 #17
JonnyM: To relate something that happened "by 4,600 years ago" to Poland is bizarre, misleading and untruthful. for one, there was no Poland on a map yet to begin with. I don't understand why some people assume that what is now Poland used to be Poland back then too.

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Jul 1, 11, 15:49 #18

guesswho:

for one, there was no Poland on a map yet to begin with. I don't understand why some people assume that what is now Poland used to be Poland back then too.

The Haplogroup evidence suggests for at least 11 thousand years people in Poland have pretty much been genetically the same people.

Balto Slavic languages are considered the closest to Pre Indo-European languages. As they share similarities to Sanskrit & Also Western Indo-European languages as well.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Jul 1, 11, 15:51 #19
PolskiMoc: The Haplogroup evidence suggests for at least 11 thousand years people in Poland have pretty much been genetically the same people. even if this is the case, doesn't matter, they weren't Poles. Your country exists since 966 (correct me if I'm wrong).

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Jul 1, 11, 15:58 #20
guesswho: Your country exists since 966 (correct me if I'm wrong). that's adopting to Christianity.... there is more to it: Prehistory and protohistory of Poland

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Jul 1, 11, 15:59 #21
pgtx: that's adopting to Christianity... OK, so tell me pgtx, since when Poland officially exists as a country?

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Jul 1, 11, 16:01 #22
open the link and read...

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Jul 1, 11, 16:04 #23

PolskiMoc:

It shows that the oldest evidence of a Wagon is in Poland of the Broncice pot & then 200 years later it is found in the Ukraine & then 800 years after the Bronocice pot in Central Russian Androno culture.

I don't know how someting of that period can be "in Poland" in the sense that Poland didn't exist in any recognisable form until over 3000 years later.

PolskiMoc:

That gives evidence of

That gives no evidence whatsoever.

PolskiMoc:

The Haplogroup evidenc

Haplogroups are 'evidence' for nothing.

PolskiMoc:

Balto Slavic languages are considered the closest to Pre Indo-European languages.

No they aren't.

PolskiMoc:

As they share similarities to Sanskrit & Also Western Indo-European languages as well.

All languages of the Indo-European family share those 'similarities'.

♀

Jul 1, 11, 16:05 #24

pgtx:

open the link and read...

here pgtx, this is what your link says:

The prehistory and protohistory of Poland is the period from the first appearance of Homo species on the territory of modern-day Poland, to the establishment of the Polish state in the 10th century

it says, "to the establishment of the Polish state in the 10th century".... it says clearly that Poland as a country was established in the 10th century, right? you should have read it before you told me to read it pgtx

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Jul 1, 11, 16:08 #25

JonnyM:

PolskiMoc: That gives evidence of
That gives no evidence whatsoever.PolskiMoc: The Haplogroup evidenc
Haplogroups are 'evidence' for nothing.

Haplogroup evidence is really one of the best.
Because it traces their genetic roots. If a tribe migrated from an area their haplogroups will show this.

This is how they know that Native Americans came from Siberia.

The same is shown with the oldest R1a in Europe being in Poland.

JonnyM:

PolskiMoc: As they share similarities to Sanskrit & Also Western Indo-European languages as well.
All languages of the Indo-European family share those 'similarities'.

Some languages have more similarities to Sanskrit than others.

Overall the Lithuanian language seems to be the closest language to Sanskrit.

But, Lithuanian & Slavic languages are distant relatives.

Balto-Slavic languages are thought to have split off from the same source.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Jul 1, 11, 16:11 #26
guesswho: it says clearly that Poland as a country was established in the 10th century, right? it was... but as i said, there is more to it... this thread isn't about Politics, so let's stay on topic, shall we...

♂

Jul 1, 11, 16:16 #27

PolskiMoc:

The same is shown with the oldest R1a in Europe being in Poland.

Again, you don't really understand what you're posting about - migration patterns in those days can't be determined solely by DNA records, nor can you describe anything in that period as being 'in Poland'.

PolskiMoc:

Overall the Lithuanian language seems to be the closest language to Sanskrit.

But, Lithuanian & Slavic languages are distant relatives.

Balto-Slavic languages are thought to have split off from the same source.

There is not one word of truth here.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Jul 1, 11, 16:17 #28
pgtx: it was... but as i said, there is more to it.. there's more to what pgtx? We're talking about Poland as a country, not about some Slavic tribes on nowadays territory of Poland, two different things. Those Slavs back then, weren't Poles. We can talk about Poland as a country since 966. Poland was baptized and established as a country. You know I'm right, why can't you admit it one time :-)

Mieszkoł Iszy	Jul 1, 11, 16:17 #29
ł guesswho: Your country exists since 966 (correct me if I'm wrong). It became Christian in 966.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Edited by: guesswho Jul 1, 11, 16:20 #30
Mieszkoł Iszy: It became Christian in 966. and was established as a country at the same time really. I can't find any link telling me I'm wrong. Btw Mieszko is the one who's responsible for it, right? :-)

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