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Future or ą, ć, ł, ż, etc.

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posts: 202

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May 24, 11, 16:46 #181

Koala:

The way you put interference in brackets would suggest that interference causes Venus not to visible. People use brackets to give more specific explanations that aren't relevant to the main issue, not to throw even more general and incorrect statements, so instead of admitting that you had no idea what interference is, you start personal insults.

People use brackets for various reasons. Since we have already established that linguistics is not your strong side, I'll leave it to you do research that aspect of the field. In this case you will be dealing with "prescriptive linguistics". It's a minefield, so thread carefully.

Koala:

so instead of admitting that you had no idea what interference is, you start personal insults. How typical. Anyway, if you want a reliable source on the matter, I recommend Caltech's "The Feynman's lectures on physics" vol. 2

Nothing to admit. You accept one Caltech source (I have the book at home) but reject another. Interesting, huh? I tend to agree with another poster when he mentions something about the negative influence of your ego.

Interference is used in many context and light pollution is one of its forms that can cause people to miss what they would have noticed in the absence of the interfering factor. Yes, term noise could be also used, as it is also used in other contexts, including radiation (e.g. noise to signal ratio).

Koala:

You surely do a lot of misspellings for an expert, I thought this was another one of them.

Not trying to be a dick or noth'n' but I'm not sure you are in a position to judge my English skills, especially that you appear to be a one-word-one-meaning kinda guy. Free your mind for chrissake!

I also never claimed mastery in typing so yes, I'll commit a typo here and there. I have a girl who does typing for me, but I can't really ask her to do it for me on PF.

Koala:

I never saw "effect" used as a verb (or saw it only on message boards) and my American friend once told me how their teacher were bashing them for misspelling effect/affect back in middle school.

One American's anecdotal story is meaningless to my use of "effect" as the application of either word will depend on the context. He likely used it in a wrong one. As you now know, I used a correct word in a corre3ct context. It';s fine to get some info from various forums, but you always need to verify with reputable sources.

Koala:

The original wording clearly suggests the physical phenomenom.

Both light and speech are physical phenomena. From a scientific point of view EVERYTHING around us is physical in nature (including lights), at least for the last 13.7B years.

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May 25, 11, 14:06 #182

z_darius:

Yet again you have shown that you do not care for facts, and that your understanding of concepts and words hits some walls once in a while. I think you should refrain yourself from trying to teach me English. That, as already proven, would be an uneven fight. While your English is undoubtedly very good, you still lack the polish and and experience with some of more nuanced and off the beaten track expressions.

Stop using this p-a-t-r-o-n-i-s-i-n-g tone of yours towards other people on the forum! Everyone knows that your English is excellent and it would be an uneven fight to challenge it. Also, stop telling other people that their English is very good; they just know that it is worse than yours.

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May 25, 11, 16:17 #183

Ziemowit:

I wish you wrote a similar text a few pages before when I was being patronized about my Polish skills.

Lyzko	May 25, 11, 18:05 #184
As the "second-in-command" here in charge of all patronizing tones, I find this interchange rather refreshing. Makes me feel less 'different':)))))) LOL

Lyzko

May 25, 11, 18:17 #185

(Baaaaack..) on topic, I'm interested in the phonological evolution of earlier, i.e. 'frozen', Polish forms of the above letters ą,ć,ł,ż and how they developed into their present application. For instance, Polish de-voicing with certain letters was apparently not always so, on the contrary, certain sounds once common in everyday Polish (standard, presumably!) I've read are no longer known. When did they cease to be used? Why? Did compensatory lengthening of certain vowels occur in Proto-Slavic as was the case in Germanic?

Perhaps beyond the entire scope of the present thread, these questions intrigue me-:)

boletusThreads: 47 Posts: 1,095 Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂	May 25, 11, 19:21 #186
Lyzko: Perhaps beyond the entire scope of the present thread, these questions intrigue me-:) This is not my field of expertise, but I came across of a paper or two that might help you in your quest. FrederiK Kortlandt, "West Slavic Accentuation", 18 pages, pdf file. He seems to be a Dutch scholar, although I have no clue whether or not he is any authority in this field.

♂

May 25, 11, 20:57 #187

Lyzko:

Did compensatory lengthening of certain vowels occur in Proto-Slavic as was the case in Germanic?

there was a moment in the developement of proto-slavic that there were long and short vowels (the short vowels were the yers AFAIK - I think you can look up 'yer' in wikipedia - yers developed so that there were no closed syllables in Proto-Slavic (words looked like CVCV(CV) like in some Polynesian languages or Japanese) - the era is long gone - I don't know what was the situation before the appearence of yers (whether there were differences in vowel length) - anyway now in Polish all vowels are the same length (vowel length is not phonological?) but many Slavic languages retained vowel lenght differences (like the Czech language)

Lyzko	May 25, 11, 23:30 #188
Thanks for last post, gumishu! For that matter, I might also have asked the question in reverse, namely, was there compensatory SHORTENING in Polish, after all, we've established that Polish, like Russian, has little distinction between open vs. closed vowels-:) Czech however does, as does Slovene. @bedankt ook, Boletus-:) Ik wil heel graag deze tekst lezen!

Lyzko	May 27, 11, 13:48 #189
Boletus, much appreciate once again your recommendation. Am presently purusing the Kortlandt article. Most enlightening, I must say, and indeed, so far quite on point, particularly the part on palatalization-:) Will have to read further, of course. Wonder if the article's a translation. No errors in English up to this point, so am guessing it's been heavily edited lol

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May 27, 11, 14:13 #190

Lyzko:

Most enlightening, I must say, and indeed, so far quite on point

You are welcome. I am glad you like it.

Wonder if the article's a translation. No errors in English up to this point, so am guessing it's been heavily edited lol

Well, if you look at Frederik Kortlandt bibliography, http://www.kortlandt.nl/bibliography.html, you should notice very impressive range of his interests: ranging from Afro-Asiatic to Thracian and Tocharian. A man with such a broad language interests does not need any translator, I guess. :-)
Maybe he is another Heinrich Schliemann?

♂

May 27, 11, 14:18 #191

z_darius:

Well it would be nice if you clearly stated why you wrote that what you wrote in the brackets and a) if you knew what wave interference was at the time of writing, b) you knew that it was not wave interference that actually caused the invisibility (or weaker visibility) of stars in urban areas.
So far everything looks like you look for sketchy and far-fetched sources just not to admit that you were wrong.

z_darius:

There are Caltech sources and there are Caltech sources. I know Feynman's as well as the textbook's editors' contributions to physics, additionally the textbook is worldwide recommended and used tool for education on the first year of physics(-related) studies. OTOH the website you posted could be made by a freshman student.

z_darius:

Not trying to be a dick or noth'n' but I'm not sure you are in a position to judge my English skills, especially that you appear to be a one-word-one-meaning kinda guy. Free your mind for chrissake!
I also never claimed mastery in typing so yes, I'll commit a typo here and there. I have a girl who does typing for me, but I can't really ask her to do it for me on PF.

That's hilarious. You make a lot of spelling mistakes and when I pointed that out, you spin it that I shouldn't judge your English skills. The second excuse is even more amusing, since a) you should review your text before submitting (should take ~15 seconds), b) pretty much every piece of software checks spelling and underlines unknown vocabulary, which makes correcting even easier.

z_darius:

Both light and speech are physical phenomena. From a scientific point of view EVERYTHING around us is physical in nature (including lights), at least for the last 13.7B years.

Of course. But earlier on you stated you had no interest in scientific point of view.

OK, I'm out of this discussion and won't reply anymore, since it's pointless.

Lyzko

May 27, 11, 14:30 #192

You know, Boletus, I've finally come to the not so silly conclusion that to be sure, it appears certain Northern Europeans, e.g. Dutch, Germans and Scandinavians, have this almost natural predisposition to language acquisition, not only English. It almost definitely has to do with their diet, since as we know, lack of balanced and regular nourishment does affect the brain's ability to process the information it absorbs.

Somehow, I don't think I'm too off the mark:)

Lyzko	May 27, 11, 14:35 #193
Koala, leave us pray not judge a fellow poster on his or her orthographic glitches in order to use such as some sort of litmus test to evaluate language competence. I too often make plenty of typos, so judge me by the same yardstick while you're at it!

♂

May 27, 11, 14:43 #194

Lyzko:

Koala, leave us pray not judge a fellow poster on his or her orthographic glitches in order to use such as some sort of litmus test to evaluate language competence. I too often make plenty of typos, so judge me by the same yardstick while you're at it!

I didn't judge his competence though, simply stated that he does an awful lot of spelling mistakes.

Lyzko:

Somehow, I don't think I'm too off the mark:)

I saw several German people making attempts at learning Polish and let me say they weren't natural born geniuses LOL. Even their English is usually very wonky.

As to one of your earlier questions, 'ą' used to be nasal 'a', but transformed into nasal 'o' when the long vowels disappeared in Polish. Maybe you already know that, though.

Lyzko

May 27, 11, 14:48 #195

Thanks in some measure to Boletus' recommendation of the text by Prof. Kortlandt, I now know a little more, yes-:) Among the numerous areas of personal linguistic research, the most absorbing is the appearance and disappearance of certain lexemes in some Slavic languages, some of which have extant equivalents, others which don't e.g Russ. 'vremya' in Mod. Pol. I know a similar or cognate term existed in Mediaevel Polish, yet seems to have dropped off the radar screen ever since-:))!

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	May 27, 11, 14:58 #196
Once I met one German guy that had such thick accent that I thought he was speaking German unless I really tried to understand what he said. German pronunciation of 'th' is especially funny. What does 'vremya' mean?

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Edited by: gumishu May 27, 11, 15:43 #197

Koala:

What does 'vremya' mean?

time, moment - u mienia niet vriemieni - nie mam czasu

w eto wriemia - w tym momencie,

czas means godzina in Russian (w połowinie trietich czasow - w pół do trzeciej, w dwa czasa - o godzinie drugiej, czieriez tri czasa - za trzy godziny)

Lyzko:

the most absorbing is the appearance and disappearance of certain lexemes in some Slavic languages, some of which have extant equivalents, others which don't e.g Russ. 'vremya' in Mod. Pol. I know a similar or cognate term existed in Mediaevel Polish, yet seems to have dropped off the radar screen ever since-:))!

yes - for me it is even more interesting how much vocabulary we actually lost since the times of Proto-IndoEuropean (and it seems to me we lost tonns) - what I guess much what has been gained was through acquisition (borrowing) from non-IndoEuropean languages

cinekThreads: 1 Posts: 264 Joined: Nov 16, 07 ♂	May 27, 11, 15:55 #198
gumishu: I guess much what has been gained was through acquisition (borrowing) from non-IndoEuropean languages I think most borrowings in Polish was from IndoEuropean in fact (Latin, German, English, French). From non-IE there may be just a few (from Turkish, Tatar, Magyar, Suomi maybe some Hebrew) Cinek

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May 27, 11, 16:01 #199

cinek:

I think most borrowings in Polish was from IndoEuropean in fact (Latin, German, English, French).

of course it is true - Polish (and generally slavic) had actually little contact with non-indoeuropean languages in its history

what I mean Indoeuropean languages in general gained a lot of vocabulary through contact with non-IE languages - and some of it sifted into the Polish language through borrowings from other IE languages (Germanic, Romance, Greek)

Lyzko	May 28, 11, 16:35 #200
Is anyone here familiar with "Wzdłużenie zastępcze w języku polskim" by Bogisław Dunaj (1966)? Critiques from the more knowledgable among us would prove most insightful before I begin my own search-:) Thanks

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May 30, 11, 16:37 #201

Lyzko:

Is anyone here familiar with "Wzdłużenie zastępcze w języku polskim" by Bogisław Dunaj (1966)?

Not familiar with the book, just with the process of compensatory lengthening. It happened on other languages too and traces can be seen even in English. From what I remember, the process consisted of lengthening (sometimes refereed to as heightening of vowels due to the change of articulation). Polish "ó", phonetically /u/ is its consequence and it occurred before voiced consonants as yer in Polish vanished. Some modern examples, with "traces" of yer (therms used loosely here) are various noun forms such as róg - rogu, mróz - mrozu.

Compensatory lengthening took place only before voiced and nasal sounds, hence there is no "nós" but "nos" (nose).

Sorry I can't be of more help.
The yers in Slavonic, and especially its evolution in languages such as Polish still bring back some memories of horror. That, and the development of tooth in grade 9 biology :)

Lyzko	May 30, 11, 22:14 #202
Excellent reference site, Dariusz, many, many thanks-:)

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