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Need advice on how to improve Polish language skills


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GouryThreads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: May 26, 11
Edited by: Moderator  May 27, 11, 16:18    #121
ranrod
ranrod:
My significant-other (SO) is Polish, which is why I'm learning, and she was saying she wants our kids to learn Polish, so I'm wondering if that would become a detriment of some sort to the child. I'm a little worried about it.


Have you read this article?
Speaking in tongues

ranrodThreads: 3
Posts: 31
Joined: Aug 28, 10
Edited by: ranrod  May 28, 11, 06:40    #122
Maaarysia:
Do you really think that British person would make such a blunder in the thread title?


There is no blunder in the threat title. You would know this if you read the original post. My point was that English is a lot more forgiving of errors in speaking and writing than Polish. The misspelling in the title showed this. Often you're actually considered MORE cool if you speak English wrong.

And you are right, it is hard to believe that ANYONE at any age can speak Polish intuitively; though obviously they do.

Goury, that link was cute - Thanks!
KoalaThreads: 1
Posts: 433
Joined: May 4, 11
 May 28, 11, 11:42    #123
ranrod:

There is no blunder in the threat title. You would know this if you read the original post. My point was that English is a lot more forgiving of errors in speaking and writing than Polish. The misspelling in the title showed this. Often you're actually considered MORE cool if you speak English wrong.

And you are right, it is hard to believe that ANYONE at any age can speak Polish intuitively; though obviously they do.

Again back to you old wrong memories? You're wrong, you can make various mistakes and still be understood, you just have so little experience with Polish that you don't know when the message is and when it's not understandable anymore. Quit your whining, study more.
jamesbThreads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: Jun 20, 09
 May 28, 11, 17:57    #124
I can't believe why wanting to know the absolute precise way of saying things is so important at such an early stage of learning a language like Polish. In my opinion, forming basic sentences, listening, learning vocabulary and grammar should be mastered first. After a few years of learning, you'll begin to hone your techniques as you go along.
Simply worrying about the differences between - "eszcz" part to sound identical to the "eść", seem to be splitting hairs at such an early stage of learning Polish if you ask me.
KoalaThreads: 1
Posts: 433
Joined: May 4, 11
 May 28, 11, 18:08    #125
jamesb:
I can't believe why wanting to know the absolute precise way of saying things is so important at such an early stage of learning a language like Polish. In my opinion, forming basic sentences, listening, learning vocabulary and grammar should be mastered first. After a few years of learning, you'll begin to hone your techniques as you go along.
Simply worrying about the differences between - "eszcz" part to sound identical to the "eść", seem to be splitting hairs at such an early stage of learning Polish if you ask me.

Quite the reverse, you nail the pronunciation first, then you worry about the rest. If someone thinks sz=ś, cz=ć etc. then he needs to review the basics as it'll continue to cause frustration.
jamesbThreads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: Jun 20, 09
 May 28, 11, 18:20    #126
Oh, well in some way yes. However, I don't think as a beginner someone can truly 'nail' the pronunciation; that comes with time.
It's like when people come to learn English with a native speaker, they practise their pronunciation amongst other things.
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07
 Jun 2, 11, 09:30    #127
jamesb:
However, I don't think as a beginner someone can truly 'nail' the pronunciation;


Of course, but the initial question was whether szcz differ from ść at all... This is not a question to ask after 1,5 y of learning. This is a very basic knowledge of the sounds used in the lang. The lerner should know it and be aware of the difference, even though mastering the pronuntiation may take many years.

Cinek
Antek_StalichThreads: 6
Posts: 1,533
Joined: May 6, 11
 Jun 2, 11, 09:43    #128
cinek:
his is a very basic knowledge of the sounds used in the lang.

So true. I can remember my first English lessons. The teacher told us to pronounce the English first names of schoolmates. My "t's" in Betty were wrong, I could not pronounce "Margaret" properly, and my "Joan" sucked ;-) The teacher did not go any further until the whole class could decently pronounce the sounds. The matter of "th" in different words was the next step.
LillyThreads: -
Posts: 2
Joined: Jun 7, 11
 Jun 7, 11, 14:29    #129
ranrod:
It seems to make sense that the less memorization needed for effective communication, the more brain-power would be available for higher function. No?


I totally agreee
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07
 Jun 7, 11, 16:19    #130
ranrod:
It seems to make sense that the less memorization needed for effective communication, the more brain-power would be available for higher function. No?

If it was so then evolution would make human languages more and more simple, as it'd allow for better usage of the 'higher functions' of the brain. But in fact we see quite opposite, the languages evolved into complex ones.
I think that highli inflected languages don't need more brain-power for memorising because in fact people think using ideas, not words and use some automated mechanisms to express the ideas by sentences.

One more thought about inflected languages. The complex system of endings and rules of using them works much like mechanisms used in teletransmission to prevent from transmission errors. The endings work much as 'check-sums' in telecommunication. If it's wrong it warns the listener that the transmitted data may be corrupted and the information cannot be trusted.
This is by the way one of the reasons why Poles are sensitive to improper usage of cases, noun endings etc. Any ending that is used improperly is a warning to their brains that the message they are receiving may be corrupted (they misunderstood it). So proper usage of Polish allows not only for exchanging messages between people, but also reduces the possibility of misunderstanding.

Cinek
boletusThreads: 47
Posts: 1,095
Joined: Apr 13, 11
 Jun 7, 11, 17:16    #131
Lilly:

ranrod: It seems to make sense that the less memorization needed for effective communication, the more brain-power would be available for higher function. No?

I totally agreee

You may believe in what you want but - since you said it in public - could you please back it up with some good links to the newest, well documented, research on the topic? I bet you, you will find nothing of the sort. In contrary, you will find plenty about brain plasticity, brain non-locality, redundancies, and so on. Well, some people still believe that an average human uses only 10% of his/her brain capacity. If we only could tap into that untapped 90% we could all be geniuses, or we could easily produce "design children". Well such believes are ridiculously wrong, but it does not stop many "brain gurus" from selling dubious product and services that suppose to significantly increase your brain power. A brain snake oil anyone?

And the notion that English language is simple, clean and logical (as opposed to "ridiculously complex" Polish) is also wrong. I would not get that far myself, but I've heard many English native speakers admitting that their language is dysfunctional. Dysfunctional? Didn't you just mention the brain's higher functions?

I will help you a bit with it. Let's start with English homophones, which an English speaker must memorize in order to effectively communicate. Fifty homophones starts with letter "A", such as: airless, heirless; Abel, able; or ai, I, aye and eye. Here is the entire list of the homophone distribution frequency among letters of English alphabet: A-50, B-96, C-143, D-35, E-27, F-60, G-48, H-48, I-26, J-10, K-33, L-63, M-67, N-29, O-17, P-116, Q-9, R-85, S-148, T-71, U-5, V-10, W-99, X-2, Y-8, Z-2. Altogether, this makes an impressive list of 1307 homophones to be memorized. The details are here: http://www.homophone.com

Then you have heteronyms - the words that are spelled identically but have different meanings when pronounced differently. For example: Lead, pronounced LEED, means to guide. However, lead, pronounced LED, means a metallic element. You can see the list at this address: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~cellis/heteronym.html. I will just count the distribution among English alphabet: A-7, B-4, C-12, D-7, E-1,F-0, G-0, H-1, I-3, J-0, K-0, L-3, M-1, N-2, O-1, P-11, R-11, S-8, T-1,U-0, W2, X-0,Y-0, Z-0. One nice example: "She wished she could desert him in the desert."

Here is the first verse of a popular "poem", which underlines how "dysfunctional" English is and how much one has to memorize. Yet this does not stop the English speakers to develop their higher brain functions. :-)
[I am not permitted to copy it here in its entirety, but you can find many of such copies on internet.]
Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse
I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye your dress you'll tear,
So shall I! Oh, hear my prayer,
Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
(…)


coldlikedeathThreads: 1
Posts: 7
Joined: Oct 28, 11
 Nov 6, 11, 04:53    #132
I'm Irish, a native English speaker and I was intrigued by OP's post (you're not alone!). I translate from English to Polish most of the time, barring what I have learnt. Is this right? As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm understood, I'm happy.


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