The Polish language - it's bloody hard!

Emenes

Jan 1, 10, 18:48 #181

You say that Polish pronounciation is hard? it's better than in English ;) there are only few exceptions, in English it's just like every word is pronounced in different way and THAT is difficult, lol^^
yeah, I'm speaking Polish since I've turned 1. Well, maybe about five months later ;)
But you know... most Poles don't know how to speak correctly and they say how they think it should be :)
I'm so happy to see that you learn Polish and you don't give up, because it's really "bloody hard"^^
And I gotta tell you that any polishman you'd try to talk polish to will appreciate your painful learning ;)

why are you learning THIS language?

Lyzko

Jan 2, 10, 21:40 #182

My learning was scarcely "painful"!

Besides, in what other language, pray tell, does one communicate with Polish speakers, save for a smattering pre-Cold War Russian? Why is it Europeans feel this desire to 'switch' to English whenever they suspect a foreigner is struggling with their language? Who says the average Pole or whoever can speak English any better (or worse, for that matter) than any foreigner speaking Polish etc....? Never could, and still can't quite figure out the double standard here. Maybe I'm just slow)))))

I figure your learning of English has been pretty painful, yet most Poles are loathe to admit it. LOL

♂

Jan 2, 10, 22:14 #183

Lyzko:

Why is it Europeans feel this desire to 'switch' to English whenever they suspect a foreigner is struggling with their language?

I find that most Poles prefer talking to me in Polish even though I'm far from fluent (I'll never master the case endings). Even though I know they speak English fairly well.

But I agree with other comments that English is also difficult. I think as a beginer English is easier but after a certain point it's also very difficult. My wife's english is almost perfect,for fun she filled in a cambridge proficiency test without prior study and scored over 80% (I was pretty impressed). But she still struggles with written English especially with the definite and indefinite articles. That's probably because it's a fairly alien concept to Polish people.

Lyzko

Jan 3, 10, 20:43 #184

"...even though I know they speak English well."

That small percentage of university-educated Poles, I trust you mean:-) I found the run-of the-mill Pole's English rather primitive myself. I of course gladly allowed my Polish to be corrected, the Poles, on the contrary, seemed to take almost instant umbrage at my even slightest re-phrasing of their often faulty English sentence structure! Often, I honestly COULDN'T understand what in blazes they were talking about. LOL Once, a rather attractive youngish woman,and first-time acquaintance, heard me ask her "Czy pani lepiej mówi po angielsku albo po niemiecku?". She then promptly claimed in a halting, pea-soup thick Polish accent, that she couldn't understand my Polish and requested that I repeat my sentence in (simple) English! Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

Most likely, she just wanted to flirt (though she came with someone I presumed was her boyfriend), but I wasn't taking any chances and ended up repeating my sentence in Polish.

"...But she still struggles with English, especially with the definite and indefinite articles..."

Most do, Steve, few however will admit it-:)

Lyzko

Jan 3, 10, 20:54 #185

To continue only in brief, we native English speakers tend to take our mother tongue for granted, moreso, I think, than the average European. English orthography may well be the most complex in the world today. Then again, the very notion of learning over 500,000 Chinese hanyu characters, would fill the normal Westerner with dread. Polish nominal declensions run into at least a hundred some odd, true enough.

Then again, has ANY language in fact have the monopoly on difficulty??

)))))

Lyzko	Jan 3, 10, 20:55 #186
Whoopsidaisy, mistyped that last sentence a bit..... LOL

♀

Edited by: strzyga Jan 3, 10, 21:27 #187

Lyzko:

She then promptly claimed in a halting, pea-soup thick Polish accent, that she couldn't understand my Polish and requested that I repeat my sentence in (simple) English! Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

Still, you could understand what she was saying.
I've no idea how good your Polish really is and how it sounds, so what I'm saying is just a general remark.
As it has already been stated many times in numerous threads on this forum, it's much easier to learn basic conversational English than basic conversational Polish. You need to know a lot more to make yourself understood on a basic level in Polish than in English. And the worst part is not the case endings - you could mix them up seriously and still get by - but verbs - just consider the difference in meaning between dać, zdać, wydać and zadać. It's very easy for a foreigner to mix them up and thus completely change the meaning of what they're trying to say. Add to this the usually butchered up pronunciation of prz trz szcz, and it can really take a lot of serious thinking on the part of a Polish listener to understand what the non-Pole is trying to say.
Don't get me wrong, I really admire you guys who've managed to make it with Polish and are able to hold a conversation. But it's just possible that the girl really wasn't able to get what you were saying and might have thought it easier to communicate in English.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Jan 3, 10, 21:33 #188
Lyzko: "Czy pani lepiej mówi po angielsku albo po niemiecku?" I can´t speak Polish and even I understand that sentence.

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 3, 10, 21:36 #189
In writing. Whether you would have understood it spoken is another story.

bednarThreads: - Posts: 2 Joined: Jan 3, 10 ♂	Jan 3, 10, 22:16 #190
Have you guys ever tried to learn polish from tv program'' Polonia TV''? They often play some polish tv series with English subtitles.I found it very useful to improve my English,so I think it should work the other way?

Lyzko

Jan 4, 10, 16:28 #191

Metzgermeister!

"Sprechen Sie besser (aber nicht unbedingt "lieber"!) Englisch oder Deutsch?" = Do you speak better (though not necessarily preferrably!) English or German? I decided to translate the question into your native tongue, Brutal Butcher. LOL

Had you been able to understand Polish, you would have understood what I asked the young lady:-)

Incidentally, older Poles speak far better German than English. Then again, the latter holds true for most Eastern Europeans, particularly the Czechs and Hungarians, along with other former 'Hapsburgians'.

Lyzko

Jan 4, 10, 16:41 #192

".......it is much easier to learn basic conversation English than basic conversation Polish..."

Superficially at least, you're correct, Strzyga. My only addendum to your and other such commentary posted thus far on PF, is precisely this pervasive attitude in many European countries that, as English is 'easier', less seriousness need be invested in acquiring a deep knowledge of the language, compared with, say, Polish, Russian, German or French.

This notion is false! Why not simply admit the sad truth of the matter; English standards have been dumbed down horribly over the past several decades and the world is communicating in a steady stream of baby talk otherwise known as 'Globish'! Compare the speech of thebarely minimum educated classes in the US, for instance, in black-white movies from the '40's and '50's with the so-called better off denizens of these lavish blockbuster movies of today. Prior to the beginning of 1980, even popular Hollywood films had snappy, biting, literate dialogue. They too grossed millions, but my point is the general educational level of the average US public was higher.

I wonder if one compared Polish films from the Golden Post-War Era of early Wajda, Andrzejewski and Polański with those produced these days, if the contrast would be as striking as here in the States.

Lyzko	Jan 4, 10, 16:45 #193
Sorry again for the above embarrassing typos, you guys! B .B. I read your post too quickly and see now that you DID in fact understand my question in Polish. However, you read/saw it, you didn't hear me pronounce it:-) Therein lies the crucial difference.

MagdalenaThreads: 5 Posts: 1,389 Joined: Aug 15, 07 ♀	Jan 4, 10, 16:52 #194
Lyzko: Then again, the latter holds true for most Eastern Europeans, particularly the Czechs and Hungarians, along with other former 'Hapsburgians'. Or rather other unwilling inhabitants of the Nazi empire. Those who could remember the Habsburgs are all long dead now.

Lyzko	Jan 4, 10, 17:02 #195
Yet, it was said, curiously enough, that the famous 'Prager Deutsch' was better than the mother tongue spoken outside of Austro-Hungary, i.e Germany proper, since it contained an older, more select vocabulary not much used any longer by native Germans. Nazi Empire?? Surely not all! Don't forget either Rydź Smygły or his cohorts:-)

thenameisWarsza	Feb 20, 10, 00:07 #196
I think you should first try the basic phrase to start with then get into the normal everyday whatever day conversation stuff.

Lyzko	Feb 20, 10, 17:34 #197
I agree. However, how "basic" is basic? It's a fact that more 'grammar' is required to form a reasonably intelligent-sounding Polish sentence, even if short, than to form a corresponding English one:-)

temporary	Apr 29, 12, 01:01 #198
The Best way to learn Polish with learning with a native teacher. Online lessons. w w w . learnpolish-online . c o m

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 697 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Apr 29, 12, 13:54 #199
temporary: The Best way to learn Polish with learning with a native teacher.Online lessons. w w w . learnpolish-online . c o m http://www.learnpolish-online.com/Pages/default.aspx You are allowed to post your link as far as I know.

Zorro

Apr 29, 12, 16:16 #200

Lyzko:

"Czy pani lepiej mówi po angielsku albo po niemiecku?"

Lyzko:

She then promptly claimed in a halting, pea-soup thick Polish accent, that she couldn't understand my Polish and requested that I repeat my sentence in (simple) English!

Lyzko:

"Sprechen Sie besser (aber nicht unbedingt "lieber"!) Englisch oder Deutsch?" = Do you speak better (though not necessarily preferrably!) English or German?

The use of the conjunction "albo" is wrong in the above sentence. Whether this might have led to the confusion of this "youngish" woman or not, I don't know. It might have, but typically this mistake of using "albo" rather than "czy" here shouldn't. If it had, this means that the young lady wasn't sure if you wanted to ask her whether she spoke either English or German rather than you wanted to know which one of the two languages she spoke better than the other. This example show how a rather unimportant mistake may eventually lead to confusion in some people.
Czy Pani mówi po angielsku albo/lub po niemiecku?
Czy Pani mówi lepiej po angielsku czy po niemiecku?
Here is how those two sentences should look like in Polish. The adding of "lepiej" (or "gorzej", for example) will enforce the change of the conjuction "albo/lub" into the conjunction "czy".
With the adverb "preferrably", I would formulate the sentence like this: Czy woli Pani rozmawiać po angielsku czy po niemiecku? The use of "albo" here is quite probable among native speakers , but still, it will sound rather awkward.

For the rest of your remarks, Lyzko, I fully agree with you. English is an enormous challenge in learning it as a foreign language!

Zorro	Apr 29, 12, 16:25 #201
To make you ponder a little over when to use "albo/lub" in contrast to using "czy", let me re-write that last sentence as follows: Czy woli Pani rozmawiać po angielsku lub/albo po niemiecku czy po polsku?

Lyzko	Apr 29, 12, 21:55 #202
Dzięki za poprawienia oraz tłumaczenie, Zorro! You're probably correct about the woman's reaction to my addressing her in Polish. She most likely didn't expect to hear it, figuring I was a German tourist, therefore, was expecting to be addressed rather in broken English, than broken PolishLOL ^^

♂

Apr 30, 12, 15:27 #203

Zorro:

Czy woli Pani rozmawiać po angielsku lub/albo po niemiecku czy po polsku?

I am not trying to be smart or picky so consider this a joke: in formal Polish, spoken by lawyers mostly, there is a difference between LUB and ALBO. Assuming this, try to disentangle your example now. :-)

In formal logic (here 1=true, 0=false)
LUB=OR: Logical disjunction, a.k.a. inclusive disjunction or alternation: A ⋁ B
The truth table of A ⋁ B: 0⋁0=0; 0⋁1=1; 1⋁0=1; 1⋁1=1
True when at least one component is true.

ALBO=XOR: Logical exclusive disjunction, aka exclusive OR, aka XOR; A ⊕ B
The truth table of A ⊕ B: 0⊕0=0; 0⊕1=1; 1⊕0=1; 1⊕1=0
True only when the components are mutually opposite (albo .. albo)

Lyzko	Apr 30, 12, 23:52 #204
In English though, both ususally translate simply as "or", according to most dictionaries.

♂

Edited by: boletus May 1, 12, 01:03 #205

Lyzko:

In English though, both ususally translate simply as "or", according to most dictionaries.

The following is a short excerpt from the Guide for Translators, European Committee, about usage of LUB and ALBO. Looks exactly the same as in formal logic.

1.3.7 Logika spójników
1.3.7.1 and/or a różnica między lub i albo
W języku polskim przyimek lub oznacza alternatywę łączną, zaś przyimek albo - alternatywę rozłączną. Zatem zdanie:
"Rolnicy mogą uprawiać len lub konopie."
oznacza, że rolnicy mogą uprawiać len, konopie, albo obie te rośliny jednocześnie, natomiast zdanie:
"Rolnicy mogą uprawiać len albo konopie."
znaczy, że uprawiając len, nie można uprawiać konopi, i odwrotnie.

W związku z tym właściwym odpowiednikiem wyrażenia and/or w polszczyźnie jest samo lub. Nie ma potrzeby stosowania i/lub.

Vademacum Tłumacza, wskazówki redakcyjne dla tłumaczy, wersja 3 (grudzień 2007 r.), Departament Języka Polskiego, Dyrekcja Generalna ds. Tłumaczń Pisemnych, Komisja Europejska, Luksemburg 2007,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11130298/32/and-or-a-ro%C5%BCnica-mi%C4%99dz y-lub-i-albo

Zorro

May 2, 12, 12:04 #206

boletus:

1.3.7 Logika spójników1.3.7.1 and/or a różnica między lub i alboW języku polskim przyimek lub oznacza alternatywę łączną, zaś przyimek albo - alternatywę rozłączną.

Thanks, Boletus. That's very ineresting. As an educated Polish speaker living in Poland all the time and one always eager to learn something new about the language, I've actually never come across this explanation, neither have I ever sought actively for it! This can only mean that for the vast majority of Poles, the distinction is rather unimportant and I'm sure that almost 100% of people questioned over the problem in the street, would not point to a true explanation.

When I first read the explanation you gave, I thought: Oh, dear, how intelligent it is!!! Then I realised that I had forgotten it the very minute I finished reading. So I read it again, and the same happened to me again. So I thought: Those translators at the European Commission must keep a note on it beside them to look at it evey time they want to use either "albo" or "lub", but for the consecutive translation it must be extremely clumsy. Then I thought: I must write it down on a piece of paper and put it in my wallet together with my credit card to look at it every time I want to use either "albo" or "lub", otherwise I'm not able to use them accordingly.

Next I thought: Did the great Polish writers or poets use those spójniki correctly in their works? The names of Jan Kochanowski and Adam Mickiewicz came to my mind, but as for now, I have no time to check yet.

Finally, I have thought to myself: Doesn't the language itself give any clues to remind its users quickly and efficiently which of the two conjunctions is for an alternatywa łączna and which one is for the alternatywa rozłączna? And in fact, the language does!!!, but I'm leaving it for everyone to discover this themselves as it is a great pleasure to do such things on one's own.

♂

Edited by: boletus May 2, 12, 14:03 #207

Zorro:

Next I thought: Did the great Polish writers or poets use those spójniki correctly in their works? The names of Jan Kochanowski and Adam Mickiewicz came to my mind, but as for now, I have no time to check yet.

Yes, interesting and funny at the same time.

I think Poles have become aware of such things only after the Polish School of Logic was established in the interbellum period. Łukaszewicz, Tarski and others must have influenced a lot of Polish writers at the time.

I still remember a comment of one of our university assistants, congratulating one of our friends regarding the proper usage of "albo" in his mathematics or physics test. "You must have graduated from Marcinek because you know exactly how to use LUB and ALBO", referring to "Liceum Karola Marcinkiewicza w Poznaniu" - an elite senior high school in Poznań. At that time I did not actually know, nor cared, what he was talking about. :-)

Zorro

May 2, 12, 14:17 #208

boletus:

W języku polskim przyimek lub oznacza alternatywę łączną, zaś przyimek albo - alternatywę rozłączną. Zatem zdanie:"Rolnicy mogą uprawiać len lub konopie."oznacza, że rolnicy mogą uprawiać len, konopie, albo obie te rośliny jednocześnie

According to another source, "Akademia językla polskiego; Słownik języka polskiego PWN", there is no such thing as alternatywa łączna. Alternatywa is always rozłączna by definition: alernatywa - konieczność wyboru jednej z dwóch wykluczających się możliwości (SJP PWN).
Of the same source:
albo - spójnik wyrażający możliwą wymienność albo wzajemne wyłączanie się zdań lub częsci zdań: poproszę kawy albo herbaty, dziś albo nigdy.
lub - spójnik wyrażający możliwą wymienność albo wzajemne wyłączanie się części zdania bądź zdań równorzędnych: pojedziemy nad morze lub w góry.
Now I'm really confused.

♂

May 2, 12, 14:46 #209

Zorro:

Akademia językla polskiego; Słownik języka polskiego PWN", there is no such thing as alternatywa łączna. Alternatywa is always rozłączna by definition: alernatywa - konieczność wyboru jednej z dwóch wykluczających się możliwości (SJP PWN).

Well, what can I say. Apparently the authorities are not always right. If you are confused then go back to the formal logic - as I shortly demonstrated in post #203 - which actually use such terms as exclusive disjunction (XOR) vs. inclusive disjunction (OR).
In Polish, see for example: Alternatywa wykluczająca (razłączna) http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternatywa_wykluczaj%C4%85ca

Sorry SJP, but you are wrong. :-(

Dysjunkcja co najwyżej p albo q
Oznaczenie: p | q

Przykład: Co najwyżej Kowalski jest lekarzem albo Malinowski jest lekarzem.

Objaśnienie: Prawda, gdy najwyżej jeden z nich jest lekarzem, to znaczy albo Kowalski, albo Malinowski, albo żaden z nich. Fałsz, gdy obaj są lekarzami

Odróżnienie dysjunkcji (zwanej też czasem dysjunkcją Scheffera) od alternatywy rozłącznej sprawia trudności autorom chyba wszystkich polskich słowników i encyklopedii. Autorzy ci niesłusznie utożsamiają oba pojęcia. Co gorsza, w źródłach anglojęzycznych (i niekompetentnie tłumaczonych z angielskiego) termin „dysjunkcja” odnosi się nawet do alternatywy zwykłej. Kłopoty leksykografów z dysjunkcją biorą się być może stąd, że trudno ją oddać w języku naturalnym. Niektórzy logicy proponują tu pojedynczy spójnik albo, inni proponują spójnik złożony co najwyżej… albo…, który jest bardziej wyrazisty i łatwiej zrozumiały. W języku prawniczym dysjunkcję wyraża spójnik bądź… bądź… (także pojedyncze bądź).

http://www.eioba.pl/a/1vlq/zwiazki-logiczne

♂

Edited by: boletus May 2, 12, 14:59 #210

^^
Sorry, good source but wrong example, It should be this:

Alternatywa rozłączna albo p, albo q
Oznaczenie: p ⊻ q (Boletus: I previously provided ⊕ symbol, p ⊕ q, as used in English)

Przykład: Albo Kowalski jest lekarzem, albo Malinowski jest lekarzem.

Objaśnienie: Prawda, gdy dokładnie jeden z nich jest lekarzem. Fałsz, gdy obaj są lekarzami. Fałsz, gdy żaden nie jest lekarzem.

W logice należy dokładnie rozróżniać spójnik lub od spójnika albo i od złożonego spójnika albo… albo. Każdy z nich ma inne znaczenie, ponadto w pewnych przypadkach specjalnych obowiązują inne konwencje: w języku prawniczym alternatywę rozłączną może wyrazić także pojedyncze albo, za to dysjunkcję pojedyncze lub podwójne bądź. Język naturalny rzadko przestrzega tu jakichkolwiek rozróżnień.

http://www.eioba.pl/a/1vlq/zwiazki-logiczne

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