Polish verbs are confusing/I get many results when I look them up in an online dictionary

Monia

Jun 4, 11, 17:23 #31

Lyzko - give me an example of your theory , pls .

In my opinion it is a hopeless and pointless idea to compare those two languages as I don`t see the point of such comparison . Both languages deriving from the same core called Indo - European with European origins in Latin as the first modern language used in Europe are similar and there are no significant differences . I am sure that Polish and English has got the same amount of synonyms , antonyms and Latin borrowings and foreign words borrowings .

For example Latin borrowings in English are huge and present on a larger scale than in Polish . Lets take as an example medical vocabulary , Polish language has got Polish medical names whereas English uses only Latin names ( pronounced like English which sound very funny for those who know Latin ) .
I am not talking about common medical language as it is different from medical language in both languages .

About a dictionary containing everyday language :
my dictionary of Jan Stanisławski contains 100 000 words translated from English into Polish ,and 180 000 words translated form Polish into English .

Monia

Jun 4, 11, 17:40 #32

Lyzko - give me an example of your theory , pls .

In my opinion it is a hopeless and pointless idea to compare those two languages as I don`t see the point of such comparison . Both languages deriving from the same core called Indo - European with European origins in Latin as the first modern language used in Europe are similar and there are no significant differences ( if you only omit group and within a group differences) .

I am sure that Polish and English has got the same or similar amount of synonyms , antonyms and Latin borrowings and foreign language borrowings .

For example Latin borrowings in English are huge and present on a larger scale than in Polish . Lets take as an example medical vocabulary , Polish language has got Polish medical names whereas English uses only Latin names ( pronounced like English which sound very funny for those who know Latin ) .
I am not talking about common medical language as it is different from medical language in both languages .

About a dictionary containing everyday language :
my dictionary of Jan Stanisławski contains 100 000 words translated from English into Polish ,and 180 000 words translated form Polish into English .

Lyzko

Jun 4, 11, 17:45 #33

Often when foreigners, i.e. non-native English speakers (not only Poles!). use English, they are stymied by the huge choice of synonyms before them. Compare for example Roget's Thesaurus of the English Language with its Polish equivalent. English speakers, both Brits and Yanks, are encouraged to use a variety of vocabulary, even to express common things. Perhaps this was moreso in my generation (I'm 51) and less the case today. Certainly, a Polish professor will employ a more elaborate word choice than a butcher or road worker, this is a no brainer LOL Yet, English children for instance are taught to use language far less proscriptively in daily parlance than, say, German children, where word play is far more restrictive.

Monia	Jun 4, 11, 17:48 #34
And vice versa in Polish language .

Lyzko

Jun 4, 11, 17:52 #35

Monia, I concur to a large degree with what you're saying. Furthermore, as a trained multi-linguist, I'm aware as well of the development of a number of languages in addition to my own, including Polish! The influx of Latin and Greek is indeed enriching in a variety of fields. This is not to say though, that in a language such as Polish, German or Icelandic, using native word stock rather than foreign borrowings does tend to make communication of more complicated material much more transparent to the general public.

Monia	Jun 4, 11, 17:53 #36
Give me just one english word and I will find you several Polish synonyms.

Lyzko	Jun 4, 11, 17:59 #37
threadbare - ostentatious - melifluous - strict -

Lyzko	Jun 4, 11, 18:01 #38
I know you said only ONE word, I just wanted to test your theory LOL

boletusThreads: 47 Posts: 1,095 Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂	Edited by: boletus Jun 4, 11, 18:10 #39
I do not take any serious position in this discussion, but - curious as I am - I run your examples through google translate, and back - all works well. Threadbare: wyświechtany banalny kiepski oklepany przechodzony wyszarzały ostentatious: ostentacyjny okazały wystawny huczny pokazowy

Monia	Jun 4, 11, 18:16 #40
Lyzko: threadbare -oklepany , powszedni , nagminny , ogólnikowy ostentatious - ostentacyjny , pretensjonalny melifluous - rozpływający się w ustach ( in English and Polish does not have more synonyms ) strict - ścisły , ostry , srogi, surowy , rygorystyczny

♀

Jun 4, 11, 18:37 #41

Lyzko:

threadbare - wytarty, przetarty, wyświechtany, oklepany, złachmaniony, zużyty, sfatygowany, przechodzony, wysłużony, znoszony, wyszmelcowany, zeszmacony, złachany,
ostentatious - ostentacyjny, pretensjonalny, demonstracyjny, jawny, nieskrywany, nieukrywany, manifestacyjny, rozpoznawalny, dostrzegalny, odkryty, widoczny, widzialny, odczuwalny, wyeksponowany
melifluous - do you mean mellifluous?
melodyjny, śpiewny
strict - surowy, ostry, wymagający, ortodoksyjny, ścisły, bezwzględny, całkowity

These are just examples, many more are possible depending on the context.
Anyway, Lyzko, as a linguist you are probably very well aware that even if there existed a natural language consisting of 100 words only, the speakers od that language would invent other ways to convey myriads of meanings - it could be through syntax, word order, intonation, suffixes, subtle phoneme changes and so on. The number of words is just one of the factors operating within a language. Just look at the Polish and English verbs, Polish has more verbs but English has more tenses, we need a separate verb where you just use an appropriate tense, these things operate interchangeably between languages.
From my classes in linguistics I seem to remember that all natural languages are equally capable to fully describe the speakers' world, but they obtain this end by different means, so arguing about the number of words is dangerously close to a p*ssing contest.

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	Jun 4, 11, 22:39 #42
Lyzko: Co znaczy to zdanie?? Nie rozumiem. Tylko sprobój przepisać Twój paragraf po polsku-:) "-uje się nie kreskuje" A rhyme used to teach children proper spelling. You don't put 'ó' in the ending -uje of conjugated verbs and similar -uj,-ujesz, -uję. So the correct form is spróbuj even if the infinitive form is "spróbować". Hope you don't mind :)

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	Jun 5, 11, 10:46 #43
boletus: Threadbare: wyświechtany banalny kiepski oklepany przechodzony wyszarzały A youth would even say "suchy" ;-)

♂

Jun 5, 11, 10:50 #44

Lyzko:

Co znaczy to zdanie?? Nie rozumiem. Tylko sprobój przepisać Twój paragraf po polsku-:)

What does this sentence? I do not understand. Just try to get to rewrite your article in Polish (Google translate) ????

FlaglessPole:

There is aprox 250 000 words in English

650,000 in the Oxford English Dictionary alone.

asik:

Polish remains one of the most difficult languages to speak or learn

By natives or foreigners?

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	Jun 5, 11, 11:28 #45
Antek_Stalich: A youth would even say "suchy" ;-) I think "suchy" isn't used in that context anymore. At least I haven't heard it in 7 or 8 years LOL

Lyzko	Jun 5, 11, 21:49 #46
Dzięki, Koalu! As far as the translations of the aforementioned words, I think they'll do quite nicely for the time being.

Lyzko

Jun 6, 11, 15:20 #47

While no translation is ever "exact", a closest approximation is all that can be hoped for-:) Was recently editing a German translation from German into English and was shocked at the opening blooper, and from an experienced translator no less, many years my senior. She translated an article about certain tribes in Southeast Asia as 'half-sendentary'! Even though English is her mother tongue and has an academic German background similar to my own, she completely missed the obvious 'SEMI-NOMADIC', when referring to tribespeople with no permanent settlement!

Ah, the perilous pitfalls of literal (non-)senseLOL

♂

Edited by: boletus Jun 6, 11, 16:11 #48

^^
Surprise, surprise! :-)
seminomadic - 1,420,000 Google entries
semisedentary - 267,000 Google entries
(The results vary - depending on how you spell those words: with hyphen, or as two words)

…Indeed, these peoples and the Europeans tended to have more in common with each other than either had with other peoples indigenous to the Americas. Another type of indigenous peoples may be called semisedentary. They lacked the permanent-site agriculture and the fixed borders of the sedentary peoples and were apparently far less numerous, but they had shifting agriculture and sizable, if…

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/534141/semisedentary-society

Semi-Sedentary Villages - Baka Pygmies
http://www.pygmies.org/baka/villages.asp

In Polish: półosiadły - «niezupełnie osiadły, częściowo koczowniczy».

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	Jun 6, 11, 16:16 #49
Koala: Antek_Stalich: A youth would even say "suchy" ;-) I think "suchy" isn't used in that context anymore. At least I haven't heard it in 7 or 8 years LOL You attempt to joke is suchy, i.e., "Pozwoliłeś sobie na taki trochę suchy żarcik' ;-)

Lyzko	Jun 6, 11, 16:36 #50
The German 'halbsesshaft', lit. 'half sedentary' was really the issue with my colleague's translation. A perfect example when going from ANY language to another of the dangers in giving a word-for-word rendering, perhaps especially when languages are closely linked!

boletusThreads: 47 Posts: 1,095 Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂	Jun 6, 11, 16:51 #51
Lyzko: 'half sedentary' was really the issue with my colleague's translation Oh, I missed the word "half" by instantaneously substituting it by the word "semi". Now I understand what you mean. Google, however, also shows some references to half-sedentary and "half sedentary", as in Uyghurs were already half sedentary

Lyzko	Jun 6, 11, 17:14 #52
Hmm, I'd have guessed that the Google writer ought to have used 'semi-nomadic'. 'Half-sedentary' is awkward English though, isn't it? I presume you're a native speaker-:)

Lyzko	Jun 8, 11, 14:50 #53
The meaning of 'sedentary' is 'liking to sit', 'not requiring moving around' etc... A person's job can be sedantary as can the person themselves, though I'd scarcely describe either as 'nomadic':)) lol

♂

Jun 8, 11, 15:25 #54

Lyzko:

The meaning of 'sedentary' is 'liking to sit', 'not requiring moving around' etc... A person's job can be sedantary as can the person themselves, though I'd scarcely describe either as 'nomadic':)) lol

One of the meanings, yes. :-)

But "sedentary" also means
- Remaining in one area; not migratory - in reference to animals, especially birds
- A term applied to human groups leading a settled, non-migratory lifestyle.
- Refers to animals or organisms that remain or live in one area. Attached to a surface and not moving freely, such as a barnacle.

I already cited an entry example from Encyclopedia Britannica (post #48).

Google shows 13,000 entries for the phrase "sedentary tribes", and 3000 more for "sedentary tribe", such as
- The second group of Plains Indians (sometimes referred to as Prairie Indians) were the semi-sedentary tribes …
- Nomadic vs. Sedentary Tribes

There are about 700 scholarly references to "sedentary tribes" found on google
- Mental fatigue of Indians of nomadic and sedentary tribes.
- Handbook of the nomads, semi-nomads, semi-sedentary tribes of Syria
- Acculturative stress in nomadic and sedentary tribes of Bihar, India

I saw somewhere a picture of a man on bicycle, and he described himself as nomadic. :-)

In Poland, in Silesia I think, people are likely referred to as either "ptoki" or "krzoki" (birds or bush). That would loosely translate to nomadic vs. sedentary. I am a nomad. :-)

Lyzko	Jun 8, 11, 17:05 #55
I stand corrected, much obliged Boletus!

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