Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D

MagdalenaThreads: 5 Posts: 1,365 Joined: Aug 15, 07 ♀	Feb 24, 10, 12:53 #481
poen: Polish people think Polish is difficult too? Absolutely not ;-p

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Feb 24, 10, 12:59 #482

Spirals90:

alltogether they have about 8 million native speakers only though

I think there's at least 14-16 million Hungarian speakers. I don't think Hungarians would say it is hard for them to speak their mother tongue. Is it hard for you to speak your language? It's fairly similar with other languages if you are brought up in this language.

@delphiandomine: Ok, thanks. I think it's exactly as you wrote. And who's the spammer?

Lyzko

Feb 24, 10, 14:16 #483

Difficulty is usually measured by degree of unfamiliarity. Polish will be compeltely unfamiliar to a native speaker of Mandarin, for example, hence, the former will have a considerably greater challenge learning it, than say, a Russian or a Bulgar!

I was once a newby to Polish, and though to a large extent am still clearly in the more advanced 'learning' phase, surmounted the usual obstacles through sheer force of will and application.

To paraphrase the great Mark Twain, rumors of the unlearnable difficulties of Polish have been exaggerated:-)

LOL

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Feb 24, 10, 15:01 #484

Lyzko:

Difficulty is usually measured by degree of unfamiliarity. Polish will be compeltely unfamiliar to a native speaker of Mandarin, for example, hence, the former will have a considerably greater challenge learning it, than say, a Russian or a Bulgar!

I wouldn't say that the difficulty is measured like this mainly because languages become popular because of economy, politics and social reasons rather than just being easier to learn (if so why English is far more popular than easier languages?). It is true that languages from the same language group are easier to master because of their common features and native speakers of languages that don't have that much in common have it harder to learn.

I'd say that difficulty of language can rather be measured by its complexity, forms, exceotions, conjugation, number of tenses, genders, inflexion and generally grammar and lexis richness/complexity.

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Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS Feb 24, 10, 15:17 #485

Mark Twain didn't speak Polish, therefore, I disregard his comment.

Lyzko wrote:

Difficulty is usually measured by degree of unfamiliarity.

i can't go along with this argument. of course, someone who speaks a romance language is going to have an easier time learning another romance language, but when looking at languages as a whole, some are simply less complex than others.

Lyzko wrote:

I don't think Hungarians would say it is hard for them to speak their mother tongue.

again, i gotta disagree. do you know how many times I've asked Polish people "how do you say, "______", and they simply had no clue? I'm not talking about something complicated or a difficult English/Polish equivalent, but the simplest things. Or better yet, getting 3 different answers from 3 different Poles. OR, the countless Polish people living abroad that left Poland in their late adolescent years or early teens, and now, when in their 20's and 30's have lost their touch and cannot decline their words properly anymore. Again, not making this up, but I speak from experience with meeting people that match that exact description.

For example, I recently asked a native Pole, "so if the name of the town is Szewce, how do I say 'I'm going to Szewce' and 'I'm in Szewce'"? That question to a speaker of nearly any other language would look at you and say, "That's the dumbest question I've ever heard, you simply say (in whatever language) "I'm going to/I'm in Szewce!!!" BUT, when I asked it, the native Pole looked at me, chuckled and said, "I don't know! I gotta think about it....hmmm....." And to me, that's absurd po prostu.

Basically, Polish in my opinion is utterly inefficient. I would never make a claim like that without being thoroughly convinced and after hitting the books and seeing countless instances where Poles are struggling to say the most basic thing but can't because they're getting hung up on the grammar....but I see it all the time.

Whether it's a Spaniard or an Irish guy or an Indian woman or a Puerto Rican or a Korean man or Dutch woman or an Italian man.....every single one of them after studying Polish for a few months is going to come to the same conclusion: Polish grammar is utterly ridiculous.

I've never studied Hungarian, Finnish, Czech, etc., but I don't really think it matters. I'm simply talking about Polish, and I think I'm pretty on point with what I'm saying about it, at least most Polish people seem to agree.

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Feb 24, 10, 16:49 #486

FUZZYWICKETS:

Lyzko wrote:

I don't think Hungarians would say it is hard for them to speak their mother tongue.

I wrote that.

FUZZYWICKETS:

they simply had no clue

- you must've been talking to people not well educated probably or you've been talking to average people. I can ask any average Englishman about some language aspect like you and I'd get a similar answer: "It's just like that" or "That's how you say it".
I don't see a question in this topic I could not answer at least with some basic explanation. I am not saying I know everything about Polish but I feel educated enough in my mother tongue to answer your questions. And to speak correctly. And every emmigrant's first language deteriorates after 20 yrs of not using it, don't you think? But it also depends what age they left their countries.

FUZZYWICKETS:

Basically, Polish in my opinion is utterly inefficient. I would never make a claim like that without being thoroughly convinced and after hitting the books and seeing countless instances where Poles are struggling to say the most basic thing but can't because they're getting hung up on the grammar....but I see it all the time.

Well, it is richer than English for example. I know this is a controversial statement, but rich means also more difficult to learn, as e.g. word formation and grammar are not so simple as in English.

FUZZYWICKETS:

"I don't know! I gotta think about it....hmmm....." And to me, that's absurd po prostu.

What's absurd? That you found a tough language question? Yes every language has them.

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Feb 24, 10, 17:02 #487

Olaf:

I can ask any average Englishman about some language aspect like you and I'd get a similar answer: "It's just like that" or "That's how you say it".

You could ask many well educated English speakers and they wouldn't have a clue. I can't talk for the rest of the world, but grammar isn't taught in British schools. I'm struggling to believe that the Aussie and Kiwi systems are different in this respect.

And as for the way that Americans use English - please, the vast majority of them can't even use tenses correctly!

FUZZYWICKETS:

For example, I recently asked a native Pole

I'd say that the native Pole was frankly an idiot. I've just asked two native Poles the same question and they both gave me the answer without a moment's hesitation.

FUZZYWICKETS:

Basically, Polish in my opinion is utterly inefficient.

There are quite a few examples where a Polish word can change slightly and convey quite a lot of meaning, whereas the equal in English would take a whole sentence. Most natural languages are quite inefficient in their own way - heck, look at the way that there is no such thing as Standard English as defined by academics - how inefficient is that?!

FUZZYWICKETS:

Polish grammar is utterly ridiculous.

It's difficult, but hardly ridiculous. English grammar is far more ridiculous - the lack of standards is a great example as to why, when most languages have accepted authorities on the language.

Let's not forget that all those English grammar books are all based on an interpretation of what they think English is - it's not based on any standards whatsoever. I find the American habit of barely using grammar and mixing tenses appalling; an American might very well find my use of "outwith" to be horrific. Some language!

FUZZYWICKETS:

at least most Polish people seem to agree.

Most native speakers of languages will find their own grammar ridiculous when they're forced to think about it - nothing new there!

Lyzko

Feb 24, 10, 17:13 #488

In addition, Olaf at al., it always depends on the generation about whom one is speaking. Americans from almost every walk of life in the period after WWII wrote, read and spoke a far higher level of English than most Ivy League graduates today! Perhaps foreign languages were not learned as readily during the decade of America's golden era, but the mother tongue was indeed learned with far greater precision. Spelling is a prime example. Sure, today's Americans are terrible spellers. Their parents though aren't.

I'd bet dollars to donuts (sorry, doughnuts!:) that the same hold true in other countries.

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,821 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 20:35 #489
Of everyone on this forum, I would be willing to bet not one of you, excluding the Poles of course, even comes close to FCE level in Polish, regardless of how long you've been here. There. I win. Next thread.

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,587 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 21:06 #490
FUZZYWICKETS: There. I win. How old are you, 7? Do you even have the B2 certificate from the approved Polish State examination in the Polish language? If not, then you're clearly not at B2 level either and therefore not qualified to comment by your own criteria ;)

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Feb 25, 10, 01:26 #491

delphiandomine:

You could ask many well educated English speakers and they wouldn't have a clue. I can't talk for the rest of the world, but grammar isn't taught in British schools. I'm struggling to believe that the Aussie and Kiwi systems are different in this respect.

And as for the way that Americans use English - please, the vast majority of them can't even use tenses correctly!

That's very true, and that is what I meant.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 25, 10, 02:15 #492
FUZZYWICKETS: Of everyone on this forum, I would be willing to bet not one of you, excluding the Poles of course, even comes close to FCE level in Polish, regardless of how long you've been here. Apparently (after ten years of speaking it, and a LOT of lessons) I'm at advanced level (about C1) and I suspect one or two others here are as well.

DuzaDupaThreads: - Posts: 2 Joined: Feb 25, 10 ♀	Feb 25, 10, 03:41 #493
I learned Polish in the Army (U.S.). To master the intricicies of the language (as well as for fun) we would conjucate such American terms such as "Cola-Cola".

Rikad

Feb 25, 10, 05:34 #494

FUZZYWICKETS:

do you know how many times I've asked Polish people "how do you say, "______", and they simply had no clue? I'm not talking about something complicated or a difficult English/Polish equivalent, but the simplest things. Or better yet, getting 3 different answers from 3 different Poles. OR, the countless Polish people living abroad that left Poland in their late adolescent years or early teens, and now, when in their 20's and 30's have lost their touch and cannot decline their words properly anymore. Again, not making this up, but I speak from experience with meeting people that match that exact description.

For example, I recently asked a native Pole, "so if the name of the town is Szewce, how do I say 'I'm going to Szewce' and 'I'm in Szewce'"? That question to a speaker of nearly any other language would look at you and say, "That's the dumbest question I've ever heard, you simply say (in whatever language) "I'm going to/I'm in Szewce!!!" BUT, when I asked it, the native Pole looked at me, chuckled and said, "I don't know! I gotta think about it....hmmm....." And to me, that's absurd po prostu.

Basically, Polish in my opinion is utterly inefficient. I would never make a claim like that without being thoroughly convinced and after hitting the books and seeing countless instances where Poles are struggling to say the most basic thing but can't because they're getting hung up on the grammar....but I see it all the time.

Whether it's a Spaniard or an Irish guy or an Indian woman or a Puerto Rican or a Korean man or Dutch woman or an Italian man.....every single one of them after studying Polish for a few months is going to come to the same conclusion: Polish grammar is utterly ridiculous.

I feel exactly the same, and I made your little experiment to four of my university polish colleagues: they started fighting over the 3 versions that they proposed tey sound correctly in polish, for the same small simple sentence :)))

mafketisThreads: 15 Posts: 1,830 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Feb 25, 10, 09:31 #495
FUZZYWICKETS: Of everyone on this forum, I would be willing to bet not one of you, excluding the Poles of course, even comes close to FCE level in Polish, regardless of how long you've been here. I'll take that bet. How much?

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Feb 25, 10, 09:36 #496
Hi, Out of curiosity - could you give us this question, what was it?

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Feb 25, 10, 10:44 #497

Rikad wrote:

I feel exactly the same, and I made your little experiment to four of my university polish colleagues: they started fighting over the 3 versions that they proposed tey sound correctly in polish, for the same small simple sentence :)))

and this, as you have just seen Rikad, simply should not happen in language. imagine if you were to tell your friend what just happened, that a gaggle of poles were standing around arguing how to say, "I'm going to Szewce/I'm in Szewce". Those exact situations I have seen soooo many times.

if you are writing things like this Olaf:

I can ask any average Englishman about some language aspect like you and I'd get a similar answer: "It's just like that" or "That's how you say it".

...than you are simply missing my point.

I am not talking about asking an average Englishman something like, "could you give me a quick and concise explanation of when to use past simple and when to use present perfect?"....I am talking about simple, silly stuff that a 5 year old should have command of, yet adults often times do not because of no other reason but the inefficiency of their language.

and for those of you touting B2 and above proficiency levels in Polish, puff your chest out all you want, but rest assured, if native speaking Poles are getting stumped on silly meaningless sentences, you can be most confident that you are subject to this happening to you 100 fold.

Out of curiosity - could you give us this question, what was it?

we already discussed "Szewce", but for the hell of it, I'll give you another one, just for $hit$ and giggles:

One of my first experiences with the absurdity of Polish grammar was when I asked random Poles throughout the course of 2-3 days, how do you say "5 ears"?

I received 4 different answers to that question from I'd say 7-8 Poles. Yuck it up all you want about how they "probably weren't educated" or some crap like that, but every one of those people had the infamous Polish "master's degree" and were over the age of 25. Besides, even if they were 14 year old kids, something that basic has nothing to do with education level. Just pure common sense in your own language.

Inefficient folks.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Feb 25, 10, 11:19 #498

FUZZYWICKETS:

I asked random Poles throughout the course of 2-3 days, how do you say "5 ears"?

The correct form would be "pięcioro uszu".

There's a very good book, Fuzzy, that you should try to get if you're serious
about improving your Polish. Here's the link...

http://merlin.pl/Formy-i-normy-czyli-poprawna-polszczyzna-w-praktyce_K atarzyna-Mosiolek-Klosinska/browse/product/1,287779.html#fullinfo

FUZZYWICKETS:

I received 4 different answers to that question from I'd say 7-8 Poles (...)
every one of those people had the infamous Polish "master's degree"

Typical. Don't mind the "master's degree" - 90% of those are completely worthless nowadays.

Polish, as you have already noticed, is a difficult language to learn and extremely
difficult to master. It takes a lot of effort, even for native speakers, to speak it
properly. There is a positive side to it though - it is usually enough for me to have
a short 3-5 minutes conversation with anybody in Polish to establish their social
background, education (and I mean proper education or lack of it) and upbringing.
It's useful to know who you're dealing with just by the language they use :-)

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Edited by: tonywob Feb 25, 10, 12:16 #499

Although I think Polish is difficult, I would argue it is the "HARDEST LANGUAGE" in the world. As a native English speaker, when I started learning Polish, I discovered just how strange some of the things are in English, and I take it for granted that I just know what to say. Think of all the tenses and helper verbs :P.

I've spent far too much time studying Polish grammar, and although I understand it, I can't think fast enough when I'm speaking. I'm guessing that I need to just be happy that I can get my point across in Polish without being grammatically perfect. After all, I only want to communicate, not write a novel.

I'm fairly sure if I said "piec uszy" I would be understood, even if it is grammatically incorrect. When I need to think about grammar all the time, my speech becomes so slow and full of long pauses and "errrrrrrrrrmmm", that it isn't worth it, until I get more practice and start to get used to what sounds right. But on the plus side, things I used to have to think hard about are starting to come naturally.

Guest

Feb 25, 10, 12:25 #500

FUZZYWICKETS:

Inefficient folks.

I appreciate your input, because as you are not a native speaker of Polish (?) you can be more objective. Yet every language has it's difficulties and unfortunate forms etc. As an advantage to it I can say that when you master the language then you have a rich and wide variety of linguistic forms, phraseology, idioms etc. I agree it can be often problematic, but a rich language can't be simple. English is quite simple though, hence it's one of the most popular languages in the world.

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Feb 25, 10, 12:35 #501

Olaf:

English is quite simple though, hence it's one of the most popular languages in the world.

I know a few Poles who would completely disagree with this statement. English is difficult because of the many different tenses, amongst other things. Things we take for granted. I'm sure it's exactly the same case with Polish.

At first, I was surprised how Polish people could speak so fast and get all the cases correct, but whenever I ask a Pole a question about "Why did you say that?", they don't know. It's exactly the same case with most English people, who can't answer grammar questions.

I only know one person who could speak English perfectly and he was a highly qualified English teacher.

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Feb 25, 10, 13:24 #502

Ok, right,
but English doesn't have so many tenses does it.
For Poles the only hard thing in English tenses are perfect tenses as there's no equivalent to that in Polish. The rest is almost like simplification - not much of conjugation, genders, aspects are treated completly different, but understandable.

tonywob:

"Why did you say that?", they don't know.

- I wrote about this before, when I asked English speakers :). It's the same!
- it's just a matter of level of command of language [or a really hard question:) ], and also when you ask any native speaker (so English speakers too, like I'd witten) some complicated linguistic question they often cannot explain fully as they aquired language and foreigners learn it, so they rely only on studied grammar rules etc. and native speakers often rather "sense" which forms to use than apply learnt language rules and then it is harder to explain why.
I'm not sure if I wrote it clear, sorry.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Feb 25, 10, 13:35 #503

FUZZYWICKETS:

and this, as you have just seen Rikad, simply should not happen in language

Why not? I often argue with people over the best way to say something in English. I think you're also forgetting that language is fluid - of course people will argue about the correct way to say something. I find the way that certain English people stress words really annoying, especially people from London. Yet they would say that I'm wrong.

If you don't believe me - why does "The cat wants out" sound perfectly fine to my ears, yet terrible to an Englishman?

FUZZYWICKETS:

I am talking about simple, silly stuff that a 5 year old should have command of, yet adults often times do not because of no other reason but the inefficiency of their language.

If we want to talk about inefficiency, why do I have to say "A small couch" - three seperate words to be remebered, including an article - whereas in Polish, I can just say "kanapka". If you ask me, Polish is more efficient - much less nonsense and much more ways to vary something without having to bolt on endless words.

FUZZYWICKETS:

and for those of you touting B2 and above proficiency levels in Polish, puff your chest out all you want, but rest assured, if native speaking Poles are getting stumped on silly meaningless sentences, you can be most confident that you are subject to this happening to you 100 fold.

I'm really wondering what kind of morons that you're associating with. Of course, there's often two or more ways to say something in a language - that's absolutely normal. Let's look at the way that Americans and Brits will describe something - very often, it's completely different. That's inefficient.

Anyway, you're not qualified to comment on Polish, seeing as you're only at B1-B2 level. When you pass the State C1 exam, then we can talk.

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Feb 25, 10, 15:18 #504

FUZZYWICKETS:

pappy

what's that? calling names helps in discussion or it's your style?

FUZZYWICKETS:

I'm waiting tough guy.

-or you are working on a reputation? :)

Delphiandomine proved some points, and expanded some ideas, I haven't noticed sarcasm in his posts.

Will that reconcile you if I write that there are silly rules in Polish and in English, and both languages happen sometimes to be inefficient, and sometimes you can say sthg better in English and some other time it's more efficient in Polish?
Elaborate language forms are complicated obviously, but I wouldn't agree that Poles have more problems with answering language questions than e.g. Englishmen...

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Edited by: tonywob Feb 25, 10, 15:32 #505

Ha ha, I don't think even Polish could beat this below beauty:

Take the incorrect sentence:
James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher

Adding commas, make this valid English.

James, while John had had "had", had had "had had"; "had had" had had a better effect on the teacher. which means "It was the case that while John used 'had,' James used 'had had.' The teacher preferred 'had had.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_ had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Feb 25, 10, 15:35 #506
There. I had had something to say but I'm speechless now:))))))))

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Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS Feb 25, 10, 15:56 #507

Olaf wrote:

what's that? calling names helps in discussion or it's your style?

no, it's not my style. pappy is a regional thing where i'm from, it's no different than buddy.

Olaf wrote:

Delphiandomine proved some points, and expanded some ideas, I haven't noticed sarcasm in his posts.

this has nothing to do with sarcasm. i wasn't suggesting there was any.

just asking good ole' Delph to answer the same questions he's been refusing to answer for months. what's the matter Delph? credibility concerns?

watch and learn. he'll duck the questions, yet again, by cutting and pasting some stuff I wrote earlier by strapping on his aforementioned Captain Sidetrack suit. it's old hat for me by now.

OlafThreads: 8 Posts: 1,348 Joined: Oct 29, 09 ♂	Feb 26, 10, 13:33 #508
Seanus: Polish the hardest language? LOL - true, and that's exactly what I was saynig before. Anyway the article (link in the beginning of this thread) was really silly, serious mistakes in it ("7 genders, 7 tenses"... etc.) FUZZYWICKETS: Scottish? why? - I surmise that from his accent and the way he talks:)).

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 26, 10, 13:36 #509
Polish may be in the top ten hardest languages but it's not as hard as many Poles make out. Intelligent people find it easier ;) ;) ;) ;)

tonywobThreads: 7 Posts: 51 Joined: Jun 14, 09 ♂	Feb 26, 10, 13:46 #510
Chinese has my vote as the most difficult, at least for an European ;-)

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