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Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D

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Lyzko

Apr 23, 10, 18:02 #841

Yes, Ziemowit. I too was among the legion German-speaking Polish learners out there who struggled time and again with remembering the declensions for Polish months, place names etc..., only later to find out that Polish also has special rules for foreign place and personal names.

In German at least, place names remain largely as is, exceptions of course, as in practically any language:-) If I'm visiting f. ex. Berlin, Nuernberg, Maria Laach, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Mailand, Frankreich etc...., nill change is ever required to indicate inflectional relationships (THANK G_D!), one of the few blessings, I suppose, of German. cf. with Polish 'Katowice', 'do Katowic', 'w Katowicach', 'razem z Katowicami' (Instr. construction, even if unlikely..) etc.... A bleedin' dog n' pony show this language LOL

Lyzko

Apr 23, 10, 23:38 #842

....add to that the apparently quixotic number designations of single cities, 'w HelsinkACH', or countries 'w KinaCH' etc..., soooo opposite of either English or German.
Admittedly certain nouns in German are singular vs. plural in English e.g. 'die Schere' (scissors), 'die Brille' (glasses = ONE pair of spectacles LOL), 'die Hose' (PAIR of pants, vs. "a pant" he-he!) etc.

Polish too with 'drzwi' = door, perhaps because a door in the old Polish countryside consisted of two parts which opened. ??

Language logic is no end fascinating, eh?

♂

Edited by: Ziemowit Apr 24, 10, 12:42 #843

I've never asked myself the question why the names of many towns and villages come in plural in Polish. Such names are so common that I"ve just been taking it for an obvious fact for years, but indeed this does seem bizzare!

Is there a precedence of this in ancient languages? The -s ending in the English name of Athina, Athens, would suggest the plural in the original ancient Greek name? In Polish the name is explicitly plural: Ateny. Also, the Polish name for the Roman town of Pompeii is plural: Pompeje, although you may sometimes find it in singular: Pompeja.

Supposedly your explanation for the plural only form of drzwi in Polish is right. And then we inevitably come again to the so-much-hated problem of Polish collective numerals: jedne drzwi, dwoje drzwi, troje drzwi, czworo drzwi, pięcioro drzwi ...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 12:46 #844
Some of the logic is odd. I've raised this before, why is it 'na Ukrainie' and not 'w Ukrainie'? It is 'w Litwie', 'w Łotwie' and 'w Estoni'. Na węgrzech is a classic too.

Lyzko

Apr 24, 10, 14:24 #845

Seanus, first to your query. The reason I once posted in PF many moons ago as to why it's 'na Węgrzech' resp. 'na Węgry' rather than for us more "logically" 'w(e) Węgrzech' (just like 'w Niemczech' etc..), is that certain countries were and are, rightfully or wrongfully, considered mere territories by the the Poles, therefore not nations IN which one inhabits, but instead, areas of land ON which one resides.

Again, it's only theory::--))!!!

Ziemowit, naturally it's not something you'd think about necessarily unless you were to teach it, being that you're a native Polish speaker.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 14:32 #846
Hungary is not a nation?

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 14:45 #847
Once more Seanus, to you and me and many others, it is. But again, I'm only surmising as to why some countries are designated with 'na' (on) vs. 'w' (in). :-)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 14:55 #848
We'd have to test that theory out.

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 15:13 #849
:-) On whom, pray tell?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 15:30 #850
I meant by listing examples :)

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 15:33 #851
Give us a for instance.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 15:36 #852
Well, list the ones with na and we'll see :)

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 15:55 #853
Na Ukrainii', na Węgrzech, ....... can't recall any others off the top of my head at the moment, sorry LOL

♂

Edited by: ShortHairThug Apr 24, 10, 15:56 #854

Lyzko:

is that certain countries were and are, rightfully or wrongfully, considered mere territories by the the Poles, therefore not nations

How did you come about that theory? If that was the case then logically speaking one should only find this anomaly when we refer to countries not territories but that’s not always the case. We find same phenomenon when we talk about territories take US states for instance, one would say; (mieszkam na Florydzie vs. mieszkam w Kaliforni or mieszkam w Teksasie vs mieszakam na Hawajach) Historically speaking out of all those territories only Texas was a Republic at one time so only in reference to Texas we should see the term “w” every other state should be referred to as “na” but we don’t say (na Illinois but rather “w” Illinois, we don’t say “na Nowym Jorku we say “w” etc.) Now I’m not a teacher so I don’t have the explanation for you as to why that is, all I know is that your theory doesn’t hold water either. Same phenomenon you can find when we speak of other territories that were never in their history independent nations. Take a region known as Bessarabia for instance, you would say (mieszkam w Besarabi not na Besarabi) and counteless other examples. All I can say is - it just is.

EDIT: correction Hawaii was also independent but we say "na" instead of "w".

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 15:56 #855
So, only 2 non-nations? ;) ;)

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 16:08 #856
Allright, if one's "ON" an island (or group of islands) such as 'Hawaii', sure, the 'na' makes perfect sense. Then again, in US-English "I live ON Long Island.", cf. Polish "Mieszkam na (not: w!!) Long Island." also, or German "Ich lebe in (not: auf) Island.", same as in English "I live in (not: on) Iceland. Yes, you're right. Guess we'll have to shelve my theory, at least temporarily. ))))

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 16:18 #857
Japan is a group of 5 islands but it's w Japonii and not na Japonii. Trust me, I know the complications of teaching it through having to put across the usage of 'the'.

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 16:20 #858
I DO trust you, Seanus and, as someone just initmated before; A lotta stuff ya just gotta take on faith!!!

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 16:23 #859
....last time I checked, Fukiyama san lives IN Japan too.lol (.....unless he happens to live ON Okinawa,,,but then, is he technically Japanese???) UGGGGgggg!!!...........

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 16:24 #860
Some language points are like mathematics to me. Sometimes it just is any given way.

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 16:26 #861
So true, my friend, so true:-) Thank Heaven, numbers are the only 'real' universal language, and not words (..otherwise we're sunk)!!

Lyzko	Edited by: Moderator Apr 24, 10, 17:30 #862
America has Minneapolis/St.Paul, Minnesota -The Twin Cities. Minneapolis IS a lovely city. (not: are) The Twin Cities ARE (not: is) one of the nicest and friendliest cities in the US. Curious. By the way, Richard Lederer just came out with a wonderful new book "Crazy, Fractured English", exactly about his kind of thing. erm! the thread is about Polish Language.

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 17:35 #863
Merely drawing a parallel, that's all.

♂

Apr 24, 10, 20:04 #864

All my points go to you, Lyzko! Imagine that your theory as to why the names of certain countries come with 'na' instead of with 'w' was exactly what I had thought while turning off my computer after having read the post of Seanus. I do agree with you on that: some countries, probably not "countries" at all at that time, were merely seen as "territories" or vast fields or "lands" by the ancient users of Polish, while others were seen more as organized "units" with defined borders, so the users were employing "w" in their cases.

Language evidence that would corroborate this theory is that we say: na polu, na obszarze, na równinie. But we may also say: na polach, na obszarach, na równinach, which may perhaps justify why some of the names of countries or lands come in plural - na Węgrzech, na Łużycach, na Morawach.

The geographical names of "areas" requiring 'na' apply only (or mostly) to the neighbouring areas: na Łużycach, na Morawach, na Węgrzech, na Słowacji, na Rusi, na Litwie, na Łotwie. What strengthens this theory further is a fact that all Polish provinces were accordingly seen as neighbouring lands by the tribe of Polans who, before unifying all these lands into one Poland, viewed themselves as living within an area, that is 'w Polsce', while viewing other cousin tribes as living in areas beyond their own land, so living 'na Pomorzu, na Kujawach, na Mazowszu, na Śląsku'.

-----------------------
'Na' with island states is obvious because we first mean 'na wyspie/na wyspach' by saying that; Japan with 'w' (as well as Ireland for that matter) is also obvious as we first of all see it as a country, then as an island or a set of islands.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 20:15 #865
Well, for a start, Latvia isn't a neighbouring country of Poland's so directly. If you use the Baltic aspect then Estonia should be 'na' too but it is 'w'. I correct myself above, it's na Litwie and na Łotwie, I've even said so many times.

Lyzko

Apr 24, 10, 20:24 #866

Thanks again for the vote of confidence there, Ziemowit!

My surmise too was based upon years of careful study of atlasses for the languages I'd studied, including Polish, German and a few others. I concluded that EVERY culture is a tad bit nationalistic and furthermore tends to view neighboring regions as somehow strange, inferior or simply different from their own.

Silly example, but f.ex. the French call 'syphillus' the 'English disease', the English return the volley by calling it the 'French disease', 'China' in Chinese translates to 'center of the world', in Japanese, the 'Sea of China' is called the 'Sea of Japan' etc...

Start to make sense, ShortHairThug?

Lyzko	Apr 24, 10, 21:04 #867
Lateral question (very much!!) about the Polish language lol Does the city of 'Rzeszów' follow the declension pattern of 'Kraków'?? "Jeżdźę do RzeszOWA." Is this right?

SouthMancPolakThreads: 2 Posts: 206 Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂	Apr 24, 10, 21:09 #868
Lyzko: Is this right? It is ;) p.s. If anyone REALLY thinks that Polish is the hardest language in the world, then you clearly haven't tried Cantonese yet. You can trust me on this ;)

Lyzko

Apr 24, 10, 21:14 #869

Thanks:-)

Well, all I can say regarding Cantonese (not knowing any Chinese, actually) is that I've been told by native Chinese speakers that it's more phonologically complex than Mandarin, but structurally less complex than Western languages, i.e. Slavic languages.

Don't know what your experience has been with Cantonese, but I'll regrettably have to withold judgement until I've more knowledge of the latter.

Appreciate the thought however:-)

♂

Apr 24, 10, 21:17 #870

Lyzko:

Well, all I can say regarding Cantonese (not knowing any Chinese, actually) is that I've been told by native Chinese speakers that it's more phonologically complex than Mandarin, but structurally less complex than Western languages, i.e. Slavic languages.

Don't know what your experience has been with Cantonese, but I'll regrettably have to withold judgement until I've more knowledge of the latter.

I found Mandarin a little easier, but I really want to learn Cantonese because I love Hong Kong, lol.

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