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Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D


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ShortHairThugThreads: -
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Edited by: ShortHairThug  Apr 25, 10, 14:58    #871
Lyzko:
Start to make sense, ShortHairThug?

I’m not disputing the fact that the entomology could have evolved in the manner you have describe, what I’m saying is that if indeed that’s the case the original meaning is not what it is today and no one will ever make this assumption. However there are still some anomalies to be explained to put this theory of yours on a solid footing. Surely if the term “na” originaly referred to the neighboring lands only, one would have to make the assumption that it would equally apply to the lands east of us as well as in the west and there lies the dilemma. When we speak of the German lands we say “w” ie. (w Saksonii, w Brandenburgii, w Turingii, w Bawarii etc.) Those are all lands describing historical regions and as such same principal should govern all, be it eastern lands or western lands. It’s an interesting theory which btw I’m not buying at all, I’m afraid an explanation is much more simple than that, we simply use the term that comes more naturally to us hence so many discrepancies.

Edit: Even if you make the distinction that the lands west of us are Germanic and the other are Slavic, how do you explain Hungary and Baltic lands?

jonniThreads: 26
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 Apr 25, 10, 15:06    #872
ShortHairThug:
I’m not disputing the fact that the entomology


Entomology? Study of insects?
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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 Apr 25, 10, 15:08    #873
jonni:

Entomology? Study of insects?

Thanks for correction noted hopefully I won't make the same mistake again.
jonniThreads: 26
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 Apr 25, 10, 15:14    #874
Apparently it's one of the most common. That and apiary/aviary.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Apr 25, 10, 15:16    #875
Ah, the birds and the bees ;) Oh, the bees and the birds in this case ;)

So, jonni, any Polish language teasers?
b_o_h_e_m_aThreads: -
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 Apr 25, 10, 21:26    #876
Fajnie było czytać tę stronę i dowiadywać się jak postrzegany jest mój język z perspektywy innego narodu. Nigdy w ten sposób o tym nie myślałam.
It was interesting to read how my native language is perceived by all of you. I never thought about it in this perspective.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Apr 25, 10, 21:41    #877
Any other tests for us, bohema?
Lyzko  Apr 26, 10, 00:13    #878
What pertains to the Baltic states and Hungary I honestly am at present unable to explain, ShortHair Thug. An excellent question:-)


Witaj do nas, Bohemo! Tak, język polski z wględu obcego często ma zjawienie najtrudniejszego języka świata, n. pr. liczby zbiorowe, aspekty czasowników, końcy siedmiu przypadków itd...., ale po mimo to moim zdaniu jest równoczesnie najpiękniejszy wśród wszystkich języków słowiańskich.

In the event you're not convinced, just read Tuwim or Iwaszkiewicz aloud sometime. You'll start crying, I guarantee it.
b_o_h_e_m_aThreads: -
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 Apr 26, 10, 02:44    #879
Dzięki za przyjęcie Lyzko:) Może zainteresuje Cię życiorys J. Tuwima. A jak napiszę po polsku to ktoś zrozumie?? :D:D
Powiem Wam szczerze, że z mojej perspektywy j. polski wydaje się być łatwy, odpowiednie końcówki wyrazów przychodzą naturalnie, bez zastanowienia. Jeśli prawdą jest, że polskiego jest się najtrudniej nauczyć, to teraz będę "miała z górki" (watch out it's an idiom), bo nauka innych języków może być tylko prostsza:)
How about this? Just try to read it:)
p.s. it should be "nauczyć się" as for it is a "czasownik zwrotny" and "się" should be always right after the verb, but it sounds more naturally this way.
z_dariusThreads: 22
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 Apr 26, 10, 05:18    #880
ShortHairThug:
Lyzko:
is that certain countries were and are, rightfully or wrongfully, considered mere territories by the the Poles, therefore not nations

How did you come about that theory?

This is exactly the theory prevalent among Polish linguists.
Lyzko is right when he writes that some areas were considered mere territories by the the Poles.
ZiemowitThreads: 10
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 Apr 26, 10, 10:32    #881
As with all theories, it's good to have those who disagree with them (that's how our knowledge progresses, doesn't it?). Still, this case seems pretty obvious: 'na' is employed with the names of territories (not countries or states) in more or less vicinity of the Polans or the Vistulans, hence more or less familar to those tribes than other more distant areas. I myself may add some more convincing exceptions to this theory than those given in this thread. The first exception would be the territory of our direct neighbour "Prusy" for which we employ 'w' instead of 'na', so it is 'w Prusach'. But then, I wouldn't be surprised if the Polish of the Middle Ages were using 'na Prusach'. There is no written evidence for that as it's too an early period for the written Polish, however. Then the Prussians of the Middle Ages (Prusowie) and their language had disappeared and new inhabitants of these lands took over their name, but in Polish the name of the new inhabitants was slightly changed to distinguish them from the original ones (now they are 'Prusacy'). No doubt that the preposition that goes with the name of that territory, now a state rather than a territory, may have changed into 'w Prusach' (formerly in the old form 'w Prusiech').

In fact, only four examples escape the theory: w Niemczech, w Czechach (both should have 'na'), on the other hand: na Węgrzech, na Łotwie (both should have 'w'). In my view, the main reason is that at the time when these usages came into existence, Germany was a well established country, while Hungary may have not been such one (sorry, I'm not a specialist in medieval history). Also, but it's a secondary reason, in the Middle Ages Germany was separated from the Polans by the territories of cousin Polabian Slavs, like Łużyce, so the 'w' preposition could have been employed with 'Germany' just as it was with 'France' or with 'Denmark'. As to the Czechs, the tribe of Polans received Christianity and some forms of modern church (at that time the same as state) organization from their hands, so the preposition might have changed as in the case of the Prussians in addition to the fact that the Polans were separated from the Czechs by the tribes of Silesia.

As to the case of 'na Łotwie', it might have followed the example of 'na Litwie', due to the similarity of sound in these two names. A good contemporary examplification of using 'na' with the names of territories inside Poland is using forms like 'na Lubelszczyźnie', 'na Opolszczyźnie', 'na Sandomierszczyznie', denoting areas of regional size around their main towns. These are understood as areas without any clear boundaries, though some of them may form official provinces these days, borders of which may be subject to change now and again.
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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 Apr 26, 10, 17:04    #882
Besides the regions of Germany previously mentioned although interesting observation made by Ziemowit and noted that there was a separation by Łużyce. We also have less obvious regions in Poland where “w” applies, perhaps not in the same category as “na Sandomierszczyznie” for example but in name as old as Poland itself where “na” should be used yet we use “w” ie; mieszkam w Bieszczadach, w Tatrach, w Dolinie Dunajca etc. We also have an example of a country that is not in immediate vicinity of Poland nor an island yet we use the term “na” instead of “w” ie. “na Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej” originally a territory described by the sailors of old but it could have never been thought of as our land or even Slavic, yet there it is or from historical perspective besides Prussia already mentioned by Ziemowit “w Mołdawi instead of na Mołdawi” in terms of Moldavia, though it was a vassal to the Polish crown at one time.

There are simply way too many exceptions for me to except this theory. I’m neither a Linguist nor any kind of authority on this subject. Z_darius you are right and I’m aware of this fact, the question had been asked by Polish linguists, I’m just surprised Lyzko raised this issue and my question to Lyzko still stands. I would like to hear how he heard about it or is it something he came up on his own simply by studying the language? Professor Miodek was asked this very same question on a public forum and he couldn’t find a logical explanation as to why that is. Not that I would take his word as gospel on the subject matter necessarily but he does have an interesting way of explaining Polish language usage. I myself never give it that much thought, I’m simply presenting an opposing point of view with few examples thrown in for good measure (born skeptic if you like), hence my presentation might seem chaotic at times. Lyzko If you do by any chance find any material in support of this theory even if it pertains to some other language share it with us, I’ll be more than happy to read it.

My opinion still stands, it all seems to be a 50/50 proposition of what sounds right rather than based on an assumption of how we view any given region or a nation simply by what preposition we use. There’s a book on the history and formation of Polish language if you’re interested in the subject matter or just to refresh your Polish language skills “Zarys dziejów języka polskiego” by Bogdan Walczak, primarily aimed at High School level students as a supplement to their study but it also gives the reader historical reference to the Polish language. I’m afraid there’s nothing in there dealing with this particular puzzle nor have I ever came across of such material but if you have something, I’m game, I’ll read it.
Lyzko  Apr 26, 10, 23:26    #883
Both Ziemowit and ShortHairThug raise equally valid points, and indeed ShortHair, it could easily go '50/50', as you say.

No, Bohemo! Dziękuję za objaśienia o dostępstwie słów 'nauczyć się'. Niektóry zdań polskich w moich wiadomościach jest błąd, już wiem, ale apropos pan Tuwim lubię poesie od 1920ych lat.
ZiemowitThreads: 10
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Edited by: Ziemowit  Apr 27, 10, 10:52    #884
ShortHairThug:
mieszkam w Bieszczadach, w Tatrach, w Dolinie Dunajca etc

It is because it should always be 'w' when used with the names of mountains; 'w' will always be used with the noun 'dolina'; it is 'w górach', 'w dolinie', you will never say: 'na Bieszczadach, na Tatrach, na Andach, na Pirenejach, na Himalajach'.

ShortHairThug:
w Mołdawi instead of na Mołdawi

For the medival tribes of Polans or Vistulans 'Mołdawia" was as far as Bulgaria or France or Bavaria, so they would have never treated it in the terms of 'a well known area in the vicinity', they would have applied 'w' naturally, even if the name was known or popular with them which I doubt.

ShortHairThug:
na Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej” originally a territory described by the sailors of old

It is becasue it should be 'na' with 'wybrzeże', regardless if it's a region near a sea-line (na Lazurowym Wybrzeżu) or a country or anything else. The thing is somewhat similar to the phenomenon in German where you say das Maedchen and not die Maedchen, although the person is a girl, but the -chen ending matters more than the sex of the person. However, although the term 'w Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej' sounds a little awkward, it is used these days along with the term 'na Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej', possibly to underline that we talk of it in terms of a state.
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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Edited by: ShortHairThug  Apr 27, 10, 17:32    #885
As I understand it, this theory is not about proper grammar but rather if the (grammar) preposition we use to describe any region reflects the way we view that region (possession vs. independence), therefore the examples I used be it “w Bieszczadach” or “na Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej” are perfectly legit for me to use since clearly they do not indicate what the theory implies, as far as the grammar is concerned it’s a separate debate.
Ziemowit:
For the medival tribes of Polans or Vistulans 'Mołdawia" was as far as Bulgaria or France or Bavaria,

I understand that but we’re not just talking about this specific time frame in history where this concept would have formed and would have been set in stone so to speak, it would have perhaps originated at that time or perhaps even earlier but it would have evolved over a much longer period of time and it would still be evolving today. In my view any given region would have to be either very, very close to those tribes, long enough under our control as we think of ourselves as a nation or in our possession for us to be viewed as ours and clearly when we look at the history of the territories thus far mentioned that’s not always the case. After all we do have the Zaporoże or (Dzikie Pola) region which is farther away from the lands of ancient Polans and Vistulans then Moldavia is yet we use the term “na” and would have been used as prime example by the supporters of this theory. It was roughly at the same time in history when we governed both or at least collected taxes from both.
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jul 16, 10, 14:00    #886
figured i'd revive the ole' "hardest language" thread with this:

"Ślub wzięli dziesięć lat temu w kościele katolickim, w obecności (4) świadków."

correct conjugation of "4" in this case?
enkiduThreads: 18
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 Jul 16, 10, 14:03    #887
FUZZYWICKETS:
correct conjugation of "4" in this case?


czworga?
Lyzko  Jul 16, 10, 14:26    #888
"czterech", actually, unless all of the witnesses were of mixed gender, then yes, "czworga" the collective numeral would be used-:))

I still maintain that Navajo's got Polish and others beat by a country mile in terms of 'difficulty' LOL
jablkoThreads: -
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 Jul 16, 10, 14:34    #889
Congratulations to everyone that managed to learn polish, even at basic level. You people must be gifted or simply exceptionally smart :)
Lyzko  Jul 16, 10, 14:45    #890
Likewise to all you Poles out there who managed to learn to distinguish 'threw' (rzucał) from 'through' (przez) and 'in the office' (w biurze) from 'in office' (być urzędnikem) etc....

POWODZENIA DROGIM PAŃSTWOM!!!!!
jablkoThreads: -
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Edited by: jablko  Jul 16, 10, 14:52    #891
Lyzko:
distinguish 'threw' (rzucał) from 'through' (przez)


Haha I admit I have no idea whats the difference in pronouncing these words. But usually I have no problem guessing from context which word was used :)
Lyzko  Jul 16, 10, 17:14    #892
-:))) Right, apples. Tell us then LOL

)))))
Lyzko  Jul 16, 10, 18:01    #893
No, czekamy pan!! Nie mamy dużej cierpliwości-:))))

Język polski nie ma rodzajów jak po angielsku "the", "a"/"an", prawda? Dlatego 'in THE office' nie znaczy samo tak 'in office', bez "the".

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jul 16, 10, 20:40    #894
Lyzko wrote:

Język polski nie ma rodzajów jak po angielsku

wouldn't this sound better with a "tyle/ile" construction?

Jezyk polski nie ma tyle rodzajow ile angielski.......czy cos takiego? I don't know if you're polish or not Lyzko and whether I'm questioning a polish person's grammar or not.....but i figured I'd ask. the sentence looked mighty strange at first glance.

and yeah, the article used "czworga". i pulled it right out of an article on onet.pl today.
Lyzko  Jul 16, 10, 23:19    #895
Boże mój! Ale oczywiście, "tylko...tyle....." Ile papiera? - Tyle....... dziękuję!!-:))

Nie, nie jestem rodakiem.
ZiemowitThreads: 10
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Edited by: Ziemowit  Jul 17, 10, 10:22    #896
Lyzko

Actually, you were almost correct in your orignal version. The setence should be:
Język polski nie ma [takich/tego typu] rodzajników jak język angielski, to jest rodzajników "the", "a/an". You can't say "tyle" here as Polish has no articles at all.
rodzaj - gender
rodzajnik - article
Lyzko  Jul 17, 10, 14:28    #897
-:)))! Ćwiczenie tworzy mistrza.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 17, 10, 14:28    #898
Praktika bardziej :)
Lyzko  Jul 17, 10, 14:30    #899
Tak jest, Seanuśiu lol
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 17, 10, 14:36    #900
:) :) Practice makes perfect :)


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