Polite forms in Polish vs English

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Edited by: lunchbox Apr 13, 09, 22:47 #31

From what I've seen, people whose native languages are not that big on addressing people formally, have a tendency to drop out the polite "pan/pani" form and address everyone as "ty". And that does not fly well. Maybe it's just the culture I was brought up in.. but when I see a 19 year old kid addressing their professor in such a manner it just makes my skin crawl. However looking at myself and my fellow students of Polish in Slovenia, we have problems with the correct polish form as well.. since in my language addressing someone formally calls for the use of the 2. person plural and as a slip of the tongue we all do it a lot when speaking Polish as well.

As far as the English being more polite than the Polish.. I would have to disagree. The forms might be a bit more subtle.. but the tunes - oh my, the tunes! They're quite expressive.. it's all in the way one delivers the sentence. And I would have to say I have never seen such complete turnabouts of character as one can witness when the English go abroad on vacation. :P

♂

Apr 14, 09, 00:09 #32

I have the opposite problem since the formal/informal distinction is basically alien to me, I have a habit of retreating to Pan/Pani (because I sometimes forget which I use with a particular person). It's especially embarrassing when a person addresses me (and my American brain understands without noticing whether they used 'ty' or 'pan')

Also, occasionally I have the problem of genuinely not knowing which to use (Polish speakers tell me they have the same problem some times). The wealth of impersonal constructions in Polish are a real godsend then.

WwwAgent

Aug 4, 09, 13:20 #33

Hello/Czesc Everybody,
what a fantastic conversation is going on here!

Guys - we must all realise that the differences are there and thats an undeniable fact, okay? :) A different animal is where they came from...

I loved your comment, Gospodarz: "Nasty with a smile. A Brit specialty"! At least a Polish man will tell you straight "bugger off" and will not beat around the bush, PRETENDING THEYRE TRYING TO BE POLITE! Stuff that kind of politeness - to me this doesnt even deserve to be called "politeness".

Anyway, hear this one out:
You were to visit your friend, so there you are standing in front of his/her front door, you ring the bell - no answer. You knock on the door - theres no reply. Of course, he/she must be in the back garden, not hearing you. Again. What do u do next then?
You knock on your friend's next door neighbour to find out. Maybe they know something.
An Englishman opens up.
After exchanging <obligatory> "How are you, youre alright." you start your investigation, hoping for cooperation and understanding.
"I dont think he's home." - he replies.
Now - what did the guy actually say?
Did I ask him for his opinion? No! I wanted him to do me a favour and do all the necessary checks for me, not giving me his opinion!

Now, PLEASE, tell me anybody - why is "I dont think hes home" a standard form of saying
"I know hes not home".
Actually, is it?

Regards,
Jacek

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Aug 4, 09, 15:05 #34
I haven't read all the replies here. But if you find the informal infinitive too unpolite you can use Proszę + infinitive of the verb. Ex: Proszę wejść! Proszę czekać na mnie! If you would address the person Pan/Pani, you would probably use this form of infinitive expressions.

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Aug 5, 09, 10:01 #35

SzwedwPolsce:

I haven't read all the replies here.

Neither have I, but it is obvious that different forms of politness are present in the Polish language. One of the most common is using the conditional mode:

Czy mógłby Pan zamknąć drzwi?
Czy mógłby Pan na mnie chwilę poczekać? [formally a question, but truly a kind request]

In my view, the difference in using formal politness shows itself on the level of close relantionship. The Polish tend to use less polite forms (but it doesn't mean they are rude, intonation is something that counts!), while the British tend to stick to their formal language politness here as well.

Lyzko	Aug 5, 09, 20:08 #36
....Niech mógłby pan (Pan) zamknąć drzwi? = (roughly) Would the gentleman be so kind as to close the door? Third person references in direct utterances in English sound awfully high flown and bombastic, not to mention, even a little efeminate-:)

Lyzko	Aug 5, 09, 20:13 #37
Actually, I meant the above sentence as a super-polite command, rather than a question-:) M.

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Aug 5, 09, 20:32 #38

Lyzko:

Niech mógłby pan (Pan) zamknąć drzwi? = (roughly) Would the gentleman be so kind as to close the door?

niech mógłby is not real Polish Marku

Czy mógłby Pan... is ok

Niech Pan zamknie to okno - is much less polite

There are also ways in Polish for a sort of mock politeness:

Czy raczyłby Pan zamknąć to okno? - this was perhaps very polite in the ages past (but also indicated somewhat lower position of the person who asked) - now it is considered overly polite and thus used to mean something a bit different (for example that someone is doing something not appriopriate and it is expected of him/her to stop it/conform)

the topic can be continued - by ich habe keine Lust mehr ;)

Lyzko	Aug 5, 09, 21:02 #39
"........Ich habe keine Lust mehr;)" .......keine Bange, kein Problemchen du! Wenn aber doch, dann melde dich ruhig wieder-:) I didn't realize that the latter was 'less polite'. Good to know, gumishu. The question for me then remains; which is 'more' polite "Niech Pan(i) siada!", "Proszę Pan(i) usiąć!" or "Czymógłby (mogłaby) Pan(i) usiąć?"??

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Aug 5, 09, 21:09 #40
Lyzko: keine Lust All posts in this thread that relate to Rammstein will be deleted :) Mod humour. Please keep the German to a minimum. Thanx.

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,063 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ziemowit Aug 5, 09, 21:09 #41
It really depends on the intonation of the speaker! The first two are roughly the same. The last one is the most polite of the three. [Don't you think that moderators are not that good at German as they are at Swedish?]

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Aug 5, 09, 21:13 #42
Ziemowit: [Don't you think that moderators are not that good at German as they are at Swedish?] A polite form in Polish and Swedish... hej

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Edited by: gumishu Aug 5, 09, 21:18 #43

Niech pan siada. is not very polite

Proszę usiąść (never Proszę Pan(i) usiąść) is polite enough

Czy mógłby Pan usiąść is very polite

things are changed by intonation especially when accompanied with a grimace - even the most polite can be turned around this way - by I guess this is no novelty for you - such manouvers aren't that common in Polish though

Proszę usiąść sounds more polite than Proszę siadać (as addressed to a single person)

Lyzko	Aug 5, 09, 21:19 #44
I really appreciate the assistance, gumishu and others!!! -:))

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Aug 5, 09, 21:20 #45
Wroclaw: All posts in this thread that relate to Rammstein will be deleted :) Mod humour. Please keep the German to a minimum. Thanx. nice to see the mods have a sense of humor ;)

agas	May 4, 10, 16:12 #46
im sorry but it is not true at all. Niech PAn siada, spoken with polite, encouraging tone is absolutely THE most polite/acceptable today!!! polish teacher of english

dujmdfvzujr	Jan 25, 11, 22:15 #47
"cuppa"

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 26, 11, 12:05 #48
agas: Niech PAn siada, spoken with polite, encouraging tone is absolutely THE most polite/acceptable today!!! sorry, no. sentences beginning with "niech" are always less (even much less) polite than proszę+Infinitive.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 21:58 #49
strzyga: sentences beginning with "niech" are always less (even much less) polite than proszę+Infinitive. really? how about: niech cie usciskam? :) I think too much stress in this thread is put on the vocabulary alone. What about the intonation? I agree with agas. Niech pan siada can be very polite while Proszę usiąść could be rude, or even threatening.

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Jan 26, 11, 22:52 #50
I was once told that Proszę + infinitive can sound kind of condescending as if you're talking to a child. Although that was with someone you're 'na ty' with. What I would probably say would be: Proszę, niech Pan siada! How's that?

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 26, 11, 22:53 #51
z_darius: niech cie usciskam? :) ok xyou've got a point :) (proszę uściskać :D ) z_darius: What about the intonation?I agree with agas. Niech pan siada can be very polite while Proszę usiąść could be rude, or even threatening. But how about these two sentences spoken with the same intonation? Niech pan siada will definitely sound less polite then.

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